Private services before privatisation?

[telstarbox]

Stagecoach's company history (taken here from Wikipedia but also on their own corporate site) says that:

In 1992, shortly before the privatisation of British Rail, Stagecoach Rail briefly operated a modest intercity operation between Aberdeen and London. Two BR Mark 2 passenger carriages were re-branded in Stagecoach colours and attached to a scheduled BR Intercity service.

The Stagecoach site also mentions serving Dundee and Edinburgh.

Did this happen anywhere else? As the railway was still nationalised then how was this arranged - was it a sort of permanent railtour?

 

[tbtc]

Weren't these attached to the Sleeper?

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm fairly sure they were. Weren't the services targeted at the backpacker market so a really cheap no-frills service consisting of just a seat basically?

I don't know much about the operational side of things but I'd assume BR provided a quote to attach the coaches to one of their service trains and Stagecoach just paid whatever BR charged.

 

[starrymarkb]

Though not passenger Foster Yeoman and ARC had private freight trains (59 and stock) crewed by BR crew.

 

[eastwestdivide]

And for much (all) of BR's history, there were large numbers of privately owned wagons running all over the place. To be precise, they weren't privately run services, as BR supplying the motive power, crew etc.

 

[theblackwatch]

I'm fairly sure they were. Weren't the services targeted at the backpacker market so a really cheap no-frills service consisting of just a seat basically?

I don't know much about the operational side of things but I'd assume BR provided a quote to attach the coaches to one of their service trains and Stagecoach just paid whatever BR charged.

From what I remember, this occurred just after BR had withdrawn the seated accommodation from the Anglo-Scottish sleeper services (claiming there was no demand!). One for the ticketing fanatics, I'm pretty sure only special Stagecoach Rail tickets were valid in this accommodation. Stagecoach leased a few Mk.2 coaches for this operation and painted them in the company colours - there's a picture of one at http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6611816139_ae5419bb3d_z.jpg

 

[route:oxford]

From what I remember, this occurred just after BR had withdrawn the seated accommodation from the Anglo-Scottish sleeper services (claiming there was no demand!). One for the ticketing fanatics, I'm pretty sure only special Stagecoach Rail tickets were valid in this accommodation. Stagecoach leased a few Mk.2 coaches for this operation and painted them in the company colours - there's a picture of one at http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6611816139_ae5419bb3d_z.jpg

I'm sure I've got my Stagecoach Rail ticket somewhere...

It doesn't feel like 20 years ago.

 

[Bald Rick]

This happened during my stint in the 4 strong Intercity sleeper management team (plus me); in my first ever railway job. Messrs Souter and Cox often came to the office to negotiate with my manager, and my managers manager (who, incidentally is now the top man at the DfT).

IIRC the deal wasn't leasing of coaches. We painted a couple in Stagecoach livery, and Stagecoach guaranteed to block buy a certain number of seats on every train at a fixed price per seat. They were then free to sell the seats however they chose, within certain price limits.

Stagecoach very quickly realised it cost them quite a lot to sell the tickets, as they were doing it independently of the then unified BR sales system. This was pre internet of course, although I think they did telesales. They also lost money and backed out of it as soon as they could.

However Stagecoach did learn a good deal about the retail / customer facing side of rail operations, and the complexity within the industry (even in those heady, pre-privatisation days).

 

[jopsuk]

back in those days weren't even charters all/almost all British Rail? I've seen pictures/reference to the Intercity Sector having a large fleet of older stock for charter, distinguished by having white roofs.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Don't forget Pullman which was private until 1954.

 

[sprinterguy]

back in those days weren't even charters all/almost all British Rail? I've seen pictures/reference to the Intercity Sector having a large fleet of older stock for charter, distinguished by having white roofs.

Yes that was very much the case: There were very, very few privately owned vehicles utilised in railtour rakes in BR days, and as you say the Intercity sector had a large fleet of mark 1s for charter work.

 

[David10]

The Stagecoach venture was not financially successful and ceased after about 12 months. According to Michael Harris' book on Mark 2s, the carriages used were Mk2Ds 6201, 6202, 6210, 6224, 6228 and 6232. They were repainted into InterCity livery in November 1992 but never used again.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Ha! I remember that, going up to Leuchars from Kings Cross on one in 1992 or '93. The tickets came in booklets with multiple carbon copies - one for the agent selling them, one for the passenger, one for the inspector on the train, and I remember you got a voucher for a (somewhat basic) breakfast.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember seeing the (for those days) luridley painted Mk 2's in the Railway Magazine.

 

[John55]

Don't forget Pullman which was private until 1954.

Not quite the same thing but was The Night Ferry to/from Paris run by BR (& SNCF) or was it a Wagon Lits service? The reference I found was ambiguous as to whether the coaches were hired by BR from CIWL or the train run by CIWL with BR providing the locos etc.

I seem to remember in the 80s (I think) the Halifax Building Society sponsored BR to run a Halifax to Preston/Blackpool service for its employees. Now anyone could buy a ticket but the service wouldn't have run without the subsidy. The service is now hourly and not sponsored.

Following the same idea did the NCB (not strictly private of course) have passenger services which strayed onto BR tracks in the 50s/60s/70s? There were certainly places were the NCB ran coal trains on BR track in the North East and quite possibly other areas as well. Do the trains in York which used to run from the Rowntree's factory to the main line count as private trains?

For 9 years after nationalisation the Liverpool Overhead Railway ran from Seaforth Sands to Seaforth and Litherland entirely on BR track, several times each hour for 14 hours each day. The LOR was entirely privately owned and the rolling stock was theirs not BRs.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not quite the same thing but was The Night Ferry to/from Paris run by BR (& SNCF) or was it a Wagon Lits service? The reference I found was ambiguous as to whether the coaches were hired by BR from CIWL or the train run by CIWL with BR providing the locos etc.

I seem to remember in the 80s (I think) the Halifax Building Society sponsored BR to run a Halifax to Preston/Blackpool service for its employees. Now anyone could buy a ticket but the service wouldn't have run without the subsidy. The service is now hourly and not sponsored.

Following the same idea did the NCB (not strictly private of course) have passenger services which strayed onto BR tracks in the 50s/60s/70s? There were certainly places were the NCB ran coal trains on BR track in the North East and quite possibly other areas as well. Do the trains in York which used to run from the Rowntree's factory to the main line count as private trains?

For 9 years after nationalisation the Liverpool Overhead Railway ran from Seaforth Sands to Seaforth and Litherland entirely on BR track, several times each hour for 14 hours each day. The LOR was entirely privately owned and the rolling stock was theirs not BRs.

Yes I recall the famous "Dockers Umbrella" had a ride before it closed when I was a child, as you say BR owned the track, but not the stock.
Just over the water is a fine example of the restored Cheshire Lines Committees Warehouse at Birkenhead near to the giant Mersey Tunnel airshaft
across the road is the Merseyrail air shaft & NRs pumping station, a lot of history within a few minutes walk.

 

[Whistler40145]

I'll never forget the Stagecoach seated accommodation having garish ultra violet lights.

 

[theblackwatch]

Yes that was very much the case: There were very, very few privately owned vehicles utilised in railtour rakes in BR days, and as you say the Intercity sector had a large fleet of mark 1s for charter work.

There were a few sets as you mention - the Manchest Pullman rake, SLOA set and Pilkingtons Mk.1s to name a few. The InterCity charter fleet contained around 200 coaches when it was sold off to Waterman Railways.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Until nationalisation a high proportion of goods wagons, particularly for coal, were privately owned. This was highly inefficient as wagons only made one-way trips loaded, returning as empty stock. During WW2 all wagons were requisitioned and run as a single pool which was much more efficient. Sadly, on nationalisation BR chose to buy all the privately owned wagons, only to discover that many of them were surplus to requirements.

Marlborough College owned two coal wagons. Coal was purchased from a colliery (still privately owned) and a wagon despatched to collect it. Bearing in mind the distance from any coalfields the unladen mileage of these wagons must have been considerable, and not untypical of other private operators.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Not quite the same thing but was The Night Ferry to/from Paris run by BR (& SNCF) or was it a Wagon Lits service? The reference I found was ambiguous as to whether the coaches were hired by BR from CIWL or the train run by CIWL with BR providing the locos etc.

Following the same idea did the NCB (not strictly private of course) have passenger services which strayed onto BR tracks in the 50s/60s/70s? There were certainly places were the NCB ran coal trains on BR track in the North East and quite possibly other areas as well. Do the trains in York which used to run from the Rowntree's factory to the main line count as private trains?

The Night Ferry used coaching stock built by Wagon Lits, but, the trains themselves were operated and run by BR in England and SNCF in France. There is a CIWL coach in York NRM, I think.
Google photographs for motive power, generally, Southern utilised Class 33 and 73 locos, which are the ones I saw regularly, they did use 74's as well in the 60s/70s.


The National Coal Board use to run their own hired pax trains for their staff all over the place, my Uncle used to take the family to Skeggy on their trips out, Notts miners NCB had a convalescent home near Ingoldmells, I think it was, Derbyshire Miners had a convalescent home on Winthorpe Ave in Skeg, about 60 yards from the beach.

Have a read of this from a Yorkshire Coal Queen competition winner from 1972.

http://transdisciplinarydialogueanddebate.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/margaret-dominiak.pdf

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[John55]

The Night Ferry used coaching stock built by Wagon Lits, but, the trains themselves were operated and run by BR in England and SNCF in France.

The National Coal Board use to run their own hired pax trains for their staff all over the place, my Uncle used to take the family to Skeggy on their trips out, Notts miners NCB had a convalescent home near Ingoldmells, I think it was, Derbyshire Miners had a convalescent home on Winthorpe Ave in Skeg, about 60 yards from the beach.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

Thanks for info re Night ferry.

The NCB services I was thinking about were the kind illustrated in this rather splendid photo of the NCB passenger service around Ashington;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/5143506975/

did these or similar ones in South Wales, or anywhere else, escape onto the mainline?