Problem With London Underground

[SailRail]

I am travelling across the UK on a Dublin bought SailRail ticket. I was expressly told by train staff in both Holyhead and Chester to travel via London and that my ticket covered me for the underground between Euston and Kings Cross. At Euston, because the Irish issued tickets don't fit the ticket machines, a staff member let me through to the underground without a problem having seen my ticket. However, when I got to Kings Cross a very aggressive ticket attendant wouldn't let me out and told me my ticket didn't cover the underground and that I would be fined. I told him Holyhead and Chester both said it did and that Euston hadn't had an issue with it so he let me through and said I wouldn't be fined this time but to be careful.

My question is, who was right? Holyhead, Chester and Euston or Kings Cross?

 

[bb21]

Where was your ticket to?

Who did you buy it from?

Was it a handwritten one? If so, did the clerk write a + sign in the route?

 

[Metrailway]

AFAIK London Underground is legally obliged to carry CIV ticket holders on their services as the UK is a signatory of the Convention concerning International Carriage by Rail (COTIF).

However, training for LU staff does not cover CIV tickets so inevitably most LU staff would think that CIV tickets are invalid.

 

[SailRail]

Dublin to Ely. It was bought from Irish Ferries booking desk in Dublin. It was a handwritten ticket. He didn't mark it with anything but I very much doubt he would anyway as your average Irish ticket clerk wouldn't necessarily know the route to Ely no more than your average British ticket clerk would know the way to Athy. Equally, your average Irish ticket clerk isn't going to know the markings of a British train ticket no more than an average British ticket clerk is going to know how to mark an Irish ticket for LUAS travel. I was expressly told to travel on this route by Holyhead and Chester train staff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks Metrailway, I shall quote this if I am stopped on my return journey!

 

[button_boxer]

For future reference it's just as quick to walk between Euston and Kings Cross as it is to take the tube, by the time you factor in all the escalators and tunnels between the respective mainline concourses and the underground platforms and potentially several minutes wait for a train to arrive.

 

[bb21]

The vast majority of tickets from Dublin have the cross-London marker in their route field. Some don't, but I suspect that it was more an oversight than the route not being allowed. What is the exact origin of your ticket and how much did it cost? I assume it was via Swift?

London Underground staff ticket training can be patchy, so chances are that the King's Cross staff got it wrong, but without knowing exactly which ticket it was I am unable to say for sure, just yet.

 

[SailRail]

Dublin Ferryport to Ely. Jonathan Swift. €248 return for ticket covering my wife, my son and me.

 

[yorkie]

...when I got to Kings Cross a very aggressive ticket attendant wouldn't let me out and told me my ticket didn't cover the underground and that I would be fined....

These gateline assistants get a large salary (more than me - but have to have only a fraction of the knowledge and less responsibility) however there is no apparent requirement for them to be particularly intelligent or keen to the the job, or particularly customer friendly. While the majority are very good at the job and very keen and helpful, some are not, and I am well aware that King's Cross certainly has it's share of those who are not.

Although they can come across as aggressive and threatening, they're not actually able to issue Penalty Fares as they're not authorised collectors, so unless there's an authorised collector to refer you to, they can't issue a Penalty Fare (also known as a "fine" but it technically isn't a fine) so have to "let you off this time".

You may well have encountered one of the ones who don't believe in LU/NR ticket inter-availability; they seem to have a dislike for non-LU tickets in general. I've had arguments with them in the past. The most important thing is to be calm and polite and not in any way be provoked. Some of them appear to try to provoke a reaction, because then they can justify calling the police or other nonsense. Remaining calm and polite is the way to win when encountering these well paid, yet unknowledgable, individuals.

 

[bb21]

Right, I have had a dig.

For SailRail Standby fares, there seems to be two prices, one £2 more than the other, and the same applies to SailRail Advance fares. There is no cross-London marker on the cheaper fare. Interestingly, the more expensive fares seem to match the UK Zone E prices, whereas the cheaper fares seem to match the UK Zone D prices. With Ely in Zone D and London in Zone E, I would hazard a guess that the intention is for the more expensive fare to be valid via London, where the cheaper one via Birmingham only.

Fares information for journeys originating in Ireland is sketchy to say the least, the best I have found is through Irish Ferries. Now without knowing how your total of €248 was arrived at, I can only guess that you bought a Zone D ticket via Swift one-way and Ulysses the other, with a €3 supplement for credit cards(?), since any inclusion of validity via Zone E would exceed that total.

Now the real question is if you have a Zone D ticket not priced via Zone E, are you permitted to travel via London at all? I cannot get any online booking engine to give me that itinerary at all, so cannot say for sure that it is indeed valid via London.

Nevertheless I think if you were assured by staff at Holyhead and Crewe that your ticket was indeed valid via London, then I think your best course of action is to complain to London Underground. Meanwhile I think you should try and get an answer out of Virgin and ATW, to back up your claim that your ticket was indeed valid via London if needed.

Sorry I can't be more certain about the validity, hopefully someone would be able to come up with something more definitive.

 

[SailRail]

Thanks for the information everyone.

I'm not sure about the two zones though. For example, Wrexham is in North Wales which is zone A but Chester is zone B. However, the train from Holyhead passes through Chester before it goes to Wrexham thus forcing you to travel through a more expensive zone. If I'm travelling to Chester I always buy to Wrexham because its cheaper and just get off in Chester anyway. I'll take your advice though, I'll travel through Birmingham on the way back to avoid problems but then when I make the journey again I'll get something official from the man in Holyhead to say I can travel through London. Tbh, I find your public transport a bit confusing. In Ireland, as long as your journey is reasonable (for eg. you can't travel from Kilkenny to Portlaoise via Drogheda because that doesn't make sense), you get on and change, if needs be, anywhere you want. That said, its probably one of the few things back home that isn't ar5eways.

 

[yorkie]

. In Ireland, as long as your journey is reasonable (for eg. you can't travel from Kilkenny to Portlaoise via Drogheda because that doesn't make sense), you get on and change, if needs be, anywhere you want. That said, its probably one of the few things back home that isn't ar5eways.

It's like that here - if it's deemed reasonable 99.9% of staff won't question it (whether or not it's technically valid!).

You only experienced a problem because you used LU. Had you walked between stations (~9 mins via Phoenix Road, or ~12 mins via the congested Euston Road), you'd not have experienced any issues or rudeness, I'm sure!

The sort of person you spoke to isn't representative, but is part of a noticeable and rather vocal minority that increases in proportions and hostility in the London area, particularly on the London Underground. People like that are much rarer elsewhere, and I hope the rest of your travels over here are much more pleasant - I'm sure they will be!

 

[adrock1976]

Apologies for deviating slightly off the original post, but I had a similar problem a few years ago with one of the LU staff at Victoria.

I had an Off Peak period return (Any Permitted) from Glasgow to Reading Stations with a reservation for a seat on the overnight train from GLC to EUS. It was dated to start from the beginning of the journey in Glasgow, continuing into the next day. The LU staff let me through no problem at Euston (as the ticket did not work the automatic gate, plus I had shown them my reservation coupon that I had travelled overnight). However on attempting to exit at Victoria (my intention was to continue to Clapham Junction and pick up the Waterloo - Reading service there), the LU staff member refused to let me exit, as he mentioned to me that it was a break of journey and that the outward portion of the ticket had already expired the previous day. I had explained that I had not completed my journey yet, and had not long arrived off the overnight train from Glasgow to Euston, that I was let though at Euston, and had shown him the seat reservation coupon, but still would not listen to me. He sarkily remarked to me that he is an expert on ticketing as he once worked for British Rail.

I returned to the platforms and decided to get a Circle/District train to Embankment and walk over Waterloo Bridge to Waterloo Station. On exiting Embankment, there was no problem with the gateline staff as I explained that I had travelled on the overnight train and that I intend walking to Waterloo to continue to Reading.

Ironically, the automatic gates at Waterloo station accepted my ticket no problem, and I continued my journey with no further problems.

The question is; was the LU chap on the gateline at Victoria correct, or not being the sharpest tool in the box so to speak? The following time after that when I travelled to Reading via London on the overnight train, I saved myself the hassle with LU gateline staff and decided to walk from Euston to Waterloo, laden with camping gear and a large rucksack.

In peace

Adam

 

[yorkie]

Presumably this was an outward portion?

The staff member at Victoria was incorrect, but their training is so basic that I can see why he might incorrectly believe it not to be valid.

 

[bb21]

Tbh, I find your public transport a bit confusing

I think that is the understatement of the year.

In reality, the overwhelming majority of staff will accept anything that is reasonable. If you were to do that journey again, I would echo the advice by others to avoid London Underground. Their staff are not known to be comprehensively trained in ticketing matters.

The issue surrounding permitted routes for SailRail tickets is also that they are poorly defined, so it is not always possible to say whether something is permitted, only what's probably reasonable and what the intention may be.

 

[SailRail]

Thanks everyone. I think, maybe this is controversial, that a lot of the problem arises from having privatised public transport. Generally in Ireland, Irish Rail and Bus Eireann staff are friendly and helpful, but the private travel companies (only buses in Ireland) generally hires b0llixes. Tbh in Chester in particular the staff were lovely, very understanding and sought out the best options for us (we missed our earlier ferry so by the time we were in Chester we, particularly our boy, were shattered so they told us our ticket provided us with the opportunity to break our journey overnight. Also, trust me on this, Ireland isn't immune from undertrained eejits who think they know everything and behave like mini Adolfs. The only difference is, and I have noticed staff here do this a lot, if someone said I'll call the Guards (our police) you'd just tell them to work away because you'd be waiting a long time for a Guard to come for an angry customer (don't know the exact length but my money's on a year). That said, I may get used to it, and the advice on LU is particularly helpful, as I'm moving over here so I need to know how things work!

 

[Hadders]

I think, maybe this is controversial, that a lot of the problem arises from having privatised public transport.

London Underground isn't privatised.

I do think the problem (and this isn't just related to the transport industry) is that organisations do things on the cheap, hire people who don't demonstrate the correct behaviours to operate in a customer facing operational role and cut back so far on training that they do not have the required level of knowledge to do the job.

 

[Merseysider]

London Underground isn't privatised.

I do think the problem (and this isn't just related to the transport industry) is that organisations do things on the cheap, hire people who don't demonstrate the correct behaviours to operate in a customer facing operational role and cut back so far on training that they do not have the required level of knowledge to do the job.

I could not agree more. Look at outsourced call centres as an example of this.

 

[Abpj17]

Even thought TfL isn't privatised, National Rail is. One being public, the other being a fragmented private system adds to them not working well together.

There are 'difficult' staff across TfL (LU and buses especially) and some of the gate staff at various NR stations in London.

 

[yorkie]

The person you met was deemed by LU to match the following job spec and worthy of a £30,000+ salary:

https://tfl.taleo.net/careersection/external/jobdetail.ftl?job=011633&lang=en

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]£30,079 per annum[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]If you get a real buzz from helping people and are passionate about assisting customers, come help us demonstrate that “every journey matters”, and ensure that our customers remain at the centre of everything we do here at London Underground. Not only will you enjoy a highly competitive salary and benefits package –you will also be part of a team committed to exceptional service delivery.[/FONT]

The role
[FONT=arial,sans-serif]You will be our public face: proactively approaching customers who may need help purchasing tickets, advising them on their journeys with real time information whilst providing a welcoming presence throughout the station. Not only will you manage the individual needs of all our customers, including those with special requirements, you will provide consistent levels of service throughout a busy day, ensuring that every customer feels valued, making their journeys faster, simpler and stress free...

[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,sans-serif]What we need:[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Friendly, reliable, helpful people with outgoing personalities and a genuine passion for delivering outstanding customer service. We are looking for confident people who can quickly take in information about our services, become experts on their local working areas and promote a positive image at all times[/FONT]...

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
Your experience, though obviously not representative of the majority of CSAs, was not a one-off, so clearly something isn't right in the recruitment process, and there insufficient checks to ensure that staff are actually behaving in the way that the job requires.

Most of us would not expect to still have a job if we performed so differently from the apparent expectations of our employers.

I must stress, it is a minority of LU staff who fall so short of the required standards, but it is a significant and very noticeable minority.

I, and others I know, have experienced them on numerous occasions over the years, and King's Cross is a place of particular concern.[FONT=arial,sans-serif]
[/FONT]

 

[SailRail]

The person you met was deemed by LU to match the following job spec and worthy of a £30,000+ salary:

https://tfl.taleo.net/careersection/external/jobdetail.ftl?job=011633&lang=en

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]
[/FONT]
Your experience, though obviously not representative of the majority of CSAs, was not a one-off, so clearly something isn't right in the recruitment process, and there insufficient checks to ensure that staff are actually behaving in the way that the job requires.

Most of us would not expect to still have a job if we performed so differently from the apparent expectations of our employers.

I must stress, it is a minority of LU staff who fall so short of the required standards, but it is a significant and very noticeable minority.

I, and others I know, have experienced them on numerous occasions over the years, and King's Cross is a place of particular concern.[FONT=arial,sans-serif]
[/FONT]

£30,000+ for operating a ticket barrier? Seriously? Why?

I made the return journey on the same route btw, although I walked between King's Cross and Euston, and had no problem, in fact no-one even checked my ticket between Ely and Holyhead.

 

[yorkie]

£30,000+ for operating a ticket barrier? Seriously? Why?

There is more to it than just operating a ticket barrier!

But, for sure, they do get extremely well paid for the job they do.