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Problems caused by lack of public toilets

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Trackman

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High Dyke

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Maybe not directly relevant (yet) but when hospitality establishments reopen any which serve alcohol also have to offer tap water free, unless I'm mistaken. Therefore in order to make use of facilities which are for patrons only request some tap water first.
We used to do that many years ago, when travelling to/from football. One particular stop was Moreton-in-Marsh,when travelling the Fosse Way. Eventually the pub landlord refused to let us in to use the toilets...even if a couple of us went to purchase a drink or crisps etc.
 

Tetchytyke

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when hospitality establishments reopen any which serve alcohol also have to offer tap water free, unless I'm mistaken

They have to provide free water to customers. They can, however, charge for the glass it came in and the service required to get it for you. And if you're otherwise not buying anything, you'd be hard pushed to argue you are a customer.
 

Busaholic

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It's a genuine fear. I'm 40 and I have a tiny bladder, which is an amusing thought for anyone who has met me given the size of the rest of me. (This sounds a bit like an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, but bear with me...) I'm genuinely concerned what it will be like when I'm 70. I might even have to consider catheterisation at that point - and with CCTV and the likes likely to be even more widespread than now weeing behind a bush will be even harder!

(No, I don't believe I have a medical condition, I've always been like that)
I'm 72 and required urgent catherisation last year when the drug prescribed for my urinary problems had unexpected side effects causing me to be literally unable to pee for several hours - I'd never known discomfort like it at that point, and was writhing in my hospital cubicle waiting for the one doctor to fit me into his other duties. Won't go into all the ins and outs of it, but the relief of catherisation quickly became jaded within days, and after three different catheters (i.e. new fittings, not the bags) and two urine infections I finally made the decision when having the final one removed in Urgent Care at 4 a.m. by a nurse to take my chances catheter-free, which has been about four months now. Unfortunately, continence remains a major problem and, sparing you the details, peeing in the bushes is not really an option, and into a bottle a physical impossibility i.e. I need a loo with a seat, and preferably a disabled one. The urinary nurse specialist who is one of the country's most knowledgeable and regularly lectures GPs etc wrote to a surgeon six months ago requesting him to see me as an urgent case, saying it would probably help it might be an 'interesting' one from his point of view because of my other conditions, but I'd not heard anything before normal life went on hold. So, catherisation possibly great, even vital, as a short-term objective, but long-term?....
 

david1212

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I can't hold on for as long as others I know and based on my father's needs this will get only get worse.

Initially locally to me all were closed. Once I had to rely in getting to the out-of-town Tesco and being permitted access before joining the queue to shop.

Next one block was opened. This was central so fine for shoppers but not so for the parks. Last weekend with the hot weather and relaxed regulations plenty were out. Although relatively open I suspect a few had to improvise. Today the stand-alone block in the park was open. The others are part of a complex so likely to be closed until at least July.

Both blocks were refurbished not too long ago with totally automatic no contact hand wash units replacing the previous push button ones.
 

Tom B

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They have to provide free water to customers. They can, however, charge for the glass it came in and the service required to get it for you. And if you're otherwise not buying anything, you'd be hard pushed to argue you are a customer.

I understand that this is not allowed - many pubs used to get around by charging for the glass etc, or by providing lukewarm water for free then encouraging you to buy chilled expensive water. I think it is only quite recently that the law was made clear, mind.
 

Tetchytyke

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Andy Pacer

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PeterC

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The reference to the Turnstile Act had me confused. I suppose that the new(ish) toilets in Whitby are legal because payment opens a gate rather than passing through an traditional turnstile.

Our local toilets have remained open and have automated hand washing although you need to go through the wash cycle twice to get the proper 20 seconds.
 

Mcr Warrior

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The reference to the Turnstile Act had me confused. I suppose that the new(ish) toilets in Whitby are legal because payment opens a gate rather than passing through an traditional turnstile.
It was the traditional coin-operated turnstile entrance to public toilets (not private toilets or ones on railway premises) that was banned in 1963, on the basis that it prevented folk with prams, or with little body strength such as children (to push through the turnstiles) from using the facilities. Apparently, this piece of legislation effectively helped put a traditional turnstile manufacturer in the Manchester area (Ellison's) out of business.

When charging was subsequently re-introduced some years later, it was deemed that turnstiles with paddles or swing arms weren't actually "turnstiles" as per the 1963 Act.
 

route:oxford

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They've never been great, but the current closures of retail, restaurant and pub units as a consequence of Covid-19 has brought their inadequacies to a head.

Here in Scotland, I'd take them out of the control of local authorities and pass ownership to a new subsidiary of Scottish Water, setting SQUIRE like standards for cleanliness.

They need to get the basics right:-

Accessible
Vandal resistant
Doors that lock, give privacy, and can be closed without straddling the pan or brushing legs or trousers against pan.
Effective flush.
Hands free soap dispenser.
Hands free taps with comfortably hot water.
Paper Towels with generous bin.
Well stocked loo rolls.
Back-up hand drier.
Clean
Heated in the winter and forced ventilation in the summer.

I'd promote the opening of facilities in towns that are key destinations for visitors, at towns that would benefit from encourage visitors spending longer, as well as towns that have an older population.

What would you do, or what legislation would you pass to make them better?

Would you do away with urinals and simply have unisex facilities with a row of cubicles for everyone to use? It would certainly make things easier for the men who have young daughters, or mums with young sons who aren't comfortable with sending their child into a facility by themselves (although probably worse taking daughters into gents).
 

bussnapperwm

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Personally I'd be in favour of toilets similar to the ones in Sandwell (self cleaning, unisex with the ability to tell if more than one person is in it) although I would not be in favour of a charge.

Really it needs to be legislated that all local authority area should have a minimum of 1 public lavatory in a town centre per 10000 (or to the next 10,000) permanent residents, and that maintainance of them should be dealt with by the council or a nominated contractor.

That should include areas which are covered by a county council/combined authorities and be subject to a minimum opening hours of 0600-2300.

And it should be made that all bus interchanges that have 3 or more bus services, or rail stations which have a at least 1 rail service per every 2 hours should have a working facility for passengers which is open during the hours of service of the bus/rail.
 

bussnapperwm

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This is, from someone who has an overactive bladder, finds it inconvenient when no lavatory facilities are available as sometimes the need can be really urgent
 

PeterC

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I have no problem with a modest charge but would prefer to be able to use contactless if a charge is made. At the moment I always make sure that there is a small pile of small change in the car.

I agree about unisex cubicles, something that I would have welcomed when my daughters were small.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would be in favour of them returning to being a statutory requirement, and would happily pay a more considerable fee than is normal, say £1/pop, for a decent quality facility.

Not having them is both age and gender discriminatory, and denies those who have urgency issues use of our public open spaces, which is highly unfair.

And for a slight bit of thread crossover - would reinstatement with paid attendants (as we used to have) be a nice job creation scheme? Perhaps it could be a dual role of attendant and park keeper?
 

takno

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They've never been great, but the current closures of retail, restaurant and pub units as a consequence of Covid-19 has brought their inadequacies to a head.

Here in Scotland, I'd take them out of the control of local authorities and pass ownership to a new subsidiary of Scottish Water, setting SQUIRE like standards for cleanliness.

They need to get the basics right:-

Accessible
Vandal resistant
Doors that lock, give privacy, and can be closed without straddling the pan or brushing legs or trousers against pan.
Effective flush.
Hands free soap dispenser.
Hands free taps with comfortably hot water.
Paper Towels with generous bin.
Well stocked loo rolls.
Back-up hand drier.
Clean
Heated in the winter and forced ventilation in the summer.

I'd promote the opening of facilities in towns that are key destinations for visitors, at towns that would benefit from encourage visitors spending longer, as well as towns that have an older population.

What would you do, or what legislation would you pass to make them better?

Would you do away with urinals and simply have unisex facilities with a row of cubicles for everyone to use? It would certainly make things easier for the men who have young daughters, or mums with young sons who aren't comfortable with sending their child into a facility by themselves (although probably worse taking daughters into gents).
There's no real reason to take them out of local council control. The reason they've become so inadequate in the last few years is that they largely aren't a service which councils have to provide, and when budgets are cut year on year in the way that they are being those kinds of services are the ones that legally have to lose out. If you strengthened council budgets and made toilet provision mandatory they would likely do a better job of managing them than Scottish Water, who have fewer staff on the ground locally, and minimal experience at facilities management generally.

As to all your other points, they would all be very nice, and in areas where usage isn't particularly high there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of point in providing urinals and a whole separate room with a separate entrance
 

GusB

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There's no real reason to take them out of local council control. The reason they've become so inadequate in the last few years is that they largely aren't a service which councils have to provide, and when budgets are cut year on year in the way that they are being those kinds of services are the ones that legally have to lose out. If you strengthened council budgets and made toilet provision mandatory they would likely do a better job of managing them than Scottish Water, who have fewer staff on the ground locally, and minimal experience at facilities management generally.

As to all your other points, they would all be very nice, and in areas where usage isn't particularly high there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of point in providing urinals and a whole separate room with a separate entrance
Agreed. I'm quite content for councils to keep their existing functions, but make sure that toilet provision is properly funded and classed as an essential service that cannot be cut in order to save on the annual budget. I wouldn't want to pass the day-to-day management to a large centralised body like Scottish Water, although perhaps it should be funded centrally.

The closing of public loos in these parts continues apace. The toilet block in my village remains open after being taken over by the community association (run on a voluntary basis, although they may employ someone to maintain it), but I suspect it would have closed long ago had the council been left to its own devices. I'd be happy to see management of such facilities devolved from councils to community organisations/parish councils etc., but I appreciate that I live in an area that's fairly affluent and there isn't always going to be sufficient funding without government support.
 

Andy Pacer

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I'm feeling a bit of deja vu here as I'm sure there is a similar thread active.

Nevertheless, my point I posted elsewhere stands - I'm happy to pay a small(ish) fee to use a public convenience as long as it is clean!
 

STEVIEBOY1

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I have no problem with a modest charge but would prefer to be able to use contactless if a charge is made. At the moment I always make sure that there is a small pile of small change in the car.

I agree about unisex cubicles, something that I would have welcomed when my daughters were small.

Yes unisex cubicles would be good, especially if there was a wash basin in each one, some facilities do have that.
 

PeterY

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Since lock-down and with most public loos shut , I've often wondered where are people "going" when they go to the beach etc. Thought of the day. o_Oo_Oo_O
 

Peter Mugridge

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Since lock-down and with most public loos shut , I've often wondered where are people "going" when they go to the beach etc. Thought of the day. o_Oo_Oo_O


According to this BBC report, the answer is "in just about anything they can find".o_O



Used sanitary items, human faeces and underwear were among items dumped at a beach in Dorset since lockdown restrictions were eased across England.

Thousands of people have flocked to the area's beaches in recent weeks, with local groups complaining about "horrendous" amounts of litter left behind

Volunteers from clean-up group GoPladdle said they also found discarded PPE items and food wrappers at Lake Pier in Hamwothy, Poole.

"While we can commend the great effort some people went to, to disguise their faeces inside takeaway containers, yoghurt pots, towels, blankets, socks and crisp packets, we did not enjoy clearing it up," a spokesman for the group said, describing the job as "stomach churning".[/QUOYE]
 

Tetchytyke

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Here in Scotland, I'd take them out of the control of local authorities and pass ownership to a new subsidiary of Scottish Water

It doesn't matter who owns them- the council, the parish council, the water board, whoever- the problem is who pays for them.

The problem is that public toilets, like so much, have become an unaffordable luxury due to the pointlessness of austerity. Fund them properly and you'll be back to having decent facilities that don't get vandalised.

Lockdown has shown the error of devolving toilet provision to shopping centres and department stores.

According to this BBC report, the answer is "in just about anything they can find".o_O

I find it mad that toilets in popular areas have been shut. It's not going to discourage visitors, it's just going to make them poo on the beach.

The island had a stricter lockdown than England but kept the public loos open. Anything else is lunacy. I know I keep mentioning how it's different here, but I'm genuinely astounded at how the UK has got things so wrong.
 

Old Yard Dog

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When many if not most gentlemen get to a certain age, they can only go so long without a no. 1 for well-known medical reasons. So it is very annoying to hear self-righteous puritans pontificating at those of us who try find a quiet spot in the trees. They think we are all a load of drunks even though all pubs are closed. A certain councillor near where I live is one of the worst of these puritans, even though it was she who closed down all the public toilets in town long before the Covid-19 crisis.

I also used to hate Little Chef's. They would advertise themselves as services with WCs, especially on the A1. Then they would deliberately position the toilets so you had to walk right through the restaurant to access them, much to the embarrassment of yourself and whoever was sat eating. So called services on other A roads like the A483 are little better.
 
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