Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[TT-ONR-NRN]

GA chose to add the yellow did they not? Not “had to”.

Which personally I think is a shame, as their fleet would look wholly better without IMO.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Just to be clear, I don't have any issues with the non-yellow front but I do find the decision to retain 390 yellow but introduce 805/7s with black is bad purely from a brand POV.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just to be clear, I don't have any issues with the non-yellow front but I do find the decision to retain 390 yellow but introduce 805/7s with black is bad purely from a brand POV.

They’ll look odd next to each other at Euston.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I doubt HS2 stock will have yellow ends, and it will be in the WCML mix before long.

 

[hexagon789]

Just to be clear, I don't have any issues with the non-yellow front but I do find the decision to retain 390 yellow but introduce 805/7s with black is bad purely from a brand POV.

The decision to retain yellow fronts on the 390s isn't by choice, the lights are not compliant with the modern standards to allow them to lose it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The decision to retain yellow fronts on the 390s isn't by choice, the lights are not compliant with the modern standards to allow them to lose it.

But introducing the 80x with a black front is a choice.
Although in fairness we don’t yet know that’s what they’re doing. Renders of 701s also showed a black front, and 720s showed a (much nicer looking) red front.

 

[Domh245]

But introducing the 80x with a black front is a choice.
Although in fairness we don’t yet know that’s what they’re doing. Renders of 701s also showed a black front, and 720s showed a (much nicer looking) red front.

The video in post#199 shows an actual unit however, resplendent with non-yellow front which near as confirms what they're doing.

It's certainly possible that when the vinyls are applied, the black sections will turn yellow but I would amazed if they painted a section black to then put vinyls over the top - if they were going to get vinyled over they'd be in the same basecoat colour, or would have been painted

 

[XCTurbostar]

The video in post#199 shows an actual unit however, resplendent with non-yellow front which near as confirms what they're doing.

It's certainly possible that when the vinyls are applied, the black sections will turn yellow but I would amazed if they painted a section black to then put vinyls over the top - if they were going to get vinyled over they'd be in the same basecoat colour, or would have been painted

None of the 80x fleets have worn vinyl over the front panel although this is the case for 221101 which is black underneath.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The video in post#199 shows an actual unit however, resplendent with non-yellow front which near as confirms what they're doing.

It's certainly possible that when the vinyls are applied, the black sections will turn yellow but I would amazed if they painted a section black to then put vinyls over the top - if they were going to get vinyled over they'd be in the same basecoat colour, or would have been painted

Could always add yellow vinyl in diagonal stripes. I'll get my coat.

 

[800001]

805001 now due to move from Merchant Park to Old Dalby on Saturday

5Q61 12th November,
DEP
09:27 Mechant Park
10:35 York
11:25 Doncaster
12:51 Spalding
PBO VQ (RR) 13:15 - 15:50
16:28~Uffington
Then down to Melton Mowbray but with over 60 minutes of pathing due roughly 18:00 at Melton Mowbray if the pathing doesn't affect it

 

[fgwrich]

Just to be clear, I don't have any issues with the non-yellow front but I do find the decision to retain 390 yellow but introduce 805/7s with black is bad purely from a brand POV.

Just on this point, remember TPE is a mix though. All the new stock has black fronts, the 'legacy' 185s, despite their newer lights, still retain a yellow front end. I thought that the 185s were supposed to receding lighting upgrades but perhaps they've just chosen to retain it?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just on this point, remember TPE is a mix though. All the new stock has black fronts, the 'legacy' 185s, despite their newer lights, still retain a yellow front end. I thought that the 185s were supposed to receding lighting upgrades but perhaps they've just chosen to retain it?

That was never planned though, as you go on to prove.

 

[Geeves]

Class 185s did have a lighting upgrade but perhaps the guys in charge of the livery thought 20 square feet of just black would look a bit odd?

 

[DanNCL]

Class 185s did have a lighting upgrade but perhaps the guys in charge of the livery thought 20 square feet of just black would look a bit odd?

Black yes, but blue as per the 68s would work, as illustrated with a digitally edited photo myself a number of years ago

https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/blue-185-jpg.39837/

-

Back on topic, I wonder if carrying the green/blue colour from the Avanti livery all the way round the front would work on the 80xs.

Also, is there any word on what first class will look like on these units? If it’s the same as on the refurbed 390s (reupholstered Grupo Antolin seats) that’ll effectively be proof that the fire regulations excuse for uncomfortable seats on most new build trains was a load of rubbish.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Also, is there any word on what first class will look like on these units? If it’s the same as on the refurbed 390s (reupholstered Grupo Antolin seats) that’ll effectively be proof that the fire regulations excuse for uncomfortable seats on most new build trains was a load of rubbish.

I hadn’t thought of that, because do Grupo Antolin even make them anymore? Blue Sophias with oversized cream leather headrests like on LNER otherwise

 

[Russel]

Just to be clear, I don't have any issues with the non-yellow front but I do find the decision to retain 390 yellow but introduce 805/7s with black is bad purely from a brand POV.

They’ll look odd next to each other at Euston.

One train will have a yellow front, one won't, 99% of passengers will walk past and not notice.

From a brand POV, the colour of the front of the train will have no impact at all.

The only people that will care are rail enthusiasts on the internet.

 

[TheBigD]

805001 now due to move from Merchant Park to Old Dalby on Saturday

5Q61 12th November,
DEP
09:27 Mechant Park
10:35 York
11:25 Doncaster
12:51 Spalding
PBO VQ (RR) 13:15 - 15:50
16:28~Uffington
Then down to Melton Mowbray but with over 60 minutes of pathing due roughly 18:00 at Melton Mowbray if the pathing doesn't affect it

Single Line Working due to the Ketton Bridge strike. I suspect the 60 minutes will be needed.

 

[DanNCL]

So we know there are technical differences between an 802 and an 805 - are there any technical differences between an 803 and an 807? Or is it simply the number of carriages and the interior that’s different?

I hadn’t thought of that, because do Grupo Antolin even make them anymore? Blue Sophias with oversized cream leather headrests like on LNER otherwise

They don’t, but if I recall correctly enough are left over from the coach G conversions on the 390s (both the 9 cars a while ago and the 11 cars being refurbished now) to equip the 805s/807s with them.

 

[800001]

I hadn’t thought of that, because do Grupo Antolin even make them anymore? Blue Sophias with oversized cream leather headrests like on LNER otherwise

Seen some Internal pictures, and looks similar to the refurb pendo, the seats did all have plastic covers over though.

I guess we will find out on Saturday of anyone can get pictures on its move south.

 

[fgwrich]

Also, is there any word on what first class will look like on these units? If it’s the same as on the refurbed 390s (reupholstered Grupo Antolin seats) that’ll effectively be proof that the fire regulations excuse for uncomfortable seats on most new build trains was a load of rubbish.

I would be surprised if they are the upholstered the same as the 390s fleet; the reason why TPE has full moquette seats in their 802s, while the same seats in the CAF built fleet is a mixture of moquette and leather, is because Hitachi counted it as a completely new seat design which would both cost more and have to go through (their own) fire testing. That, despite being the same seat used elsewhere - even ScotRails somewhat misleading 385 first class is a Sophia with moquette and leather!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be surprised if they are the upholstered the same as the 390s fleet; the reason why TPE has full moquette seats in their 802s, while the same seats in the CAF built fleet is a mixture of moquette and leather, is because Hitachi counted it as a completely new seat design which would both cost more and have to go through (their own) fire testing. That, despite being the same seat used elsewhere - even ScotRails somewhat misleading 385 first class is a Sophia with moquette and leather!

Given that FirstGroup (unlike all other 80x customers) paid to certify an entirely new Standard seat never used in the UK before (and very good it is too), that they would also pay to certify a new First Class seat is hardly a big step. Unfortunately the TPE units were built before they did so but you can't have everything.

ScotRails somewhat misleading 385 first class is a Sophia with moquette and leather!

I remember them not liking it when I visited the mock-up and told them I would pay extra to sit in Standard - and that was my first exposure to that abomination of a seat!

 

[800001]

I would be surprised if they are the upholstered the same as the 390s fleet; the reason why TPE has full moquette seats in their 802s, while the same seats in the CAF built fleet is a mixture of moquette and leather, is because Hitachi counted it as a completely new seat design which would both cost more and have to go through (their own) fire testing. That, despite being the same seat used elsewhere - even ScotRails somewhat misleading 385 first class is a Sophia with moquette and leather!

Baring in mind the 805/807 is going through complete new train testing at Old Dalby (unlike TPE or Lumo) then it’s perfectly plausible that they have the same seats as in a pendo, and again from pics I’ve seen, they do look different type to the standard 80X seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Baring in mind the 805/807 is going through complete new train testing at Old Dalby (unlike TPE or Lumo) then it’s perfectly plausible that they have the same seats as in a pendo, and again from pics I’ve seen, they do look different type to the standard 80X seating.

They are the same as the Pendolino refurb. The idea is that the interiors are as close to the same as possible.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Baring in mind the 805/807 is going through complete new train testing at Old Dalby (unlike TPE or Lumo) then it’s perfectly plausible that they have the same seats as in a pendo, and again from pics I’ve seen, they do look different type to the standard 80X seating.

Sadly very bright and bland compared to the 390, but I expected no different. Thanks for sharing the image.

 

[DanNCL]

Baring in mind the 805/807 is going through complete new train testing at Old Dalby (unlike TPE or Lumo) then it’s perfectly plausible that they have the same seats as in a pendo, and again from pics I’ve seen, they do look different type to the standard 80X seating.

They are indeed the same seats as in standard on a refurbed Pendo, which themselves are a modified version of what Lumo use. Produced by Transcal.

First class will be the interesting one, as the only way to have the same seats as the Pendo there is to re-use seats removed from Pendos through the Coach G conversions, and if they’d done that it’d somewhat disprove the ‘old designs don’t meet fire regulations’ excuse that’s been given for other new trains having uncomfortable seats!

 

[RailWonderer]

First class will be the interesting one, as the only way to have the same seats as the Pendo there is to re-use seats removed from Pendos through the Coach G conversions, and if they’d done that it’d somewhat disprove the ‘old designs don’t meet fire regulations’ excuse that’s been given for other new trains having uncomfortable seats!

They should have submitted another new seat for certification for the first class seating. My guess though would be something like the first on a class 745. Coming close would be the IET seats in first which aren't too bad, even after a 4 hour trip to Edinburgh I didn't have any aches (I will try not to start a seating debate, those are endless) but they are decent for a post PRM fire regulation seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They should have submitted another new seat for certification for the first class seating. My guess though would be something like the first on a class 745. Coming close would be the IET seats in first which aren't too bad, even after a 4 hour trip to Edinburgh I didn't have any aches (I will try not to start a seating debate, those are endless) but they are decent for a post PRM fire regulation seat.

They're an acceptable design of Standard Class seat (but a bit wider), yes.

First time I sat in one I declined to pay for Weekend First and returned to Standard.

There are plenty of good new designs of First Class seat out there if they want one, such as the Grammer ICE3000.

 

[td97]

So we know there are technical differences between an 802 and an 805 - are there any technical differences between an 803 and an 807?

Baring in mind the 805/807 is going through complete new train testing at Old Dalby

Correct - the class 805 and 807 are classed as completely new trains so will require gauge clearance work (and infrastructure modifications, if any is identified) and full PTI testing, even where 800/801/802 are already cleared. Hitachi released the gauging profiles to NR and their subcontractors earlier this month.

 

[DanNCL]

Correct - the class 805 and 807 are classed as completely new trains so will require gauge clearance work (and infrastructure modifications, if any is identified) and full PTI testing, even where 800/801/802 are already cleared. Hitachi released the gauging profiles to NR and their subcontractors earlier this month.

I know they’re classed as completely new trains but my question remains, are there actually any technical differences between an 803 and an 807?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Correct - the class 805 and 807 are classed as completely new trains so will require gauge clearance work (and infrastructure modifications, if any is identified) and full PTI testing, even where 800/801/802 are already cleared. Hitachi released the gauging profiles to NR and their subcontractors earlier this month.

But they will be travelling faster than other non-tilt stock on the WCML, so presumably have a different clearance profile over 110mph.