Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Kite159]

My main concern will be Reading to Gatwick where the cheaper route doesn't involve a change of trains, then passengers may legitimately go via Farringdon without touching but being charged a cheaper fare once the system goes live on the direct line.

Although I suspect the numbers of anybody going Gatwick - Farringdon - Reading will be small due to the large time penalty involved in having to stay with the Elizabeth line until at least Slough (post May when GWR Didcot trains no longer stop within the zones)

 

[A S Leib]

Although I suspect the numbers of anybody going Gatwick - Farringdon - Reading will be small due to the large time penalty involved in having to stay with the Elizabeth line until at least Slough (post May when GWR Didcot trains no longer stop within the zones)

Not a problem for at least five years or so, but will Crossrail and GWR in the same direction use the same platforms at Old Oak Common? (I'm guessing all Paddington services would call there.)

 

[JamesT]

Not a problem for at least five years or so, but will Crossrail and GWR in the same direction use the same platforms at Old Oak Common? (I'm guessing all Paddington services would call there.)

Unlikely, there are going to be two platform faces per line in the GWML station and the GWR services will be on the mains whilst the Elizabeth’s will be on the reliefs.

 

[PGAT]

I think a pink reader equivalent would make some sense. Though for some journeys (including perhaps Purley to Tonbridge?) the simplest thing would be to assume the cheaper route.

For journeys like that, the (usually) quickest option and most intuitive would be to change at Redhill anyways

 

[JonathanH]

My main concern will be Reading to Gatwick where the cheaper route doesn't involve a change of trains, then passengers may legitimately go via Farringdon without touching but being charged a cheaper fare once the system goes live on the direct line.

The obvious option for that one is a pink reader at Reading platforms 4 to 6.

Still wouldn't handle Guildford to Gatwick via Clapham Junction, which might also be routeing where a higher fare should be charged than the direct route.

 

[Alex365Dash]

The obvious option for that one is a pink reader at Reading platforms 4 to 6.

What stops people tapping on the reader then heading back up to the GWML platforms to go via Farringdon at the via Gomshall fare?

 

[JonathanH]

What stops people tapping on the reader then heading back up to the GWML platforms to go via Farringdon at the via Gomshall fare?

Nothing. However, there is similarly a pink reader at Stratford on platforms 1 and 2 which is relevant to certain journeys starting there, or at least I thought there used to be. Someone travelling between Romford and Richmond, for example, could touch on the reader at Stratford, and get back on the Elizabeth Line.

A separate gateline for platforms 4 to 6 at Reading is another option, although I recognise that some North Downs trains depart from other platforms.

 

[paul1609]

For journeys like that, the (usually) quickest option and most intuitive would be to change at Redhill anyways

You're right for Tonbridge itself but Tonbridge isn't a major destination. The sulky Southern Hourly Shuttle doesn't really connect consistently with any other train. So if you're going from Purley to say Tunbridge Wells its much quicker to do just the one change at London Bridge.

 

[miklcct]

You're right for Tonbridge itself but Tonbridge isn't a major destination. The sulky Southern Hourly Shuttle doesn't really connect consistently with any other train. So if you're going from Purley to say Tunbridge Wells its much quicker to do just the one change at London Bridge.

However it's also a much longer, more circuitous and more expensive journey that unlikely anyone will do that, similar to going via Reading for a Bournemouth to Bristol journey.

 

[Harryeurostar]

Snapped a quick photo of the new validators at Dunton Green from the window on my train Edit - I can also confirm validators have been put in at Bat and Ball + Otford (image at bat and ball)

 

[davetheguard]

I find it quite amazing that the project is now so advanced that infrustructure is going in at stations as illustrated by Harryeurostar's photo above, but the extent of the scheme with a list of stations included still hasn't been announced to the public.

Or have I missed something?

If not, it creates an impression that the DfT has a culture of being defensive & secretive. Even with a potentially good news story (from a passenger's point of view anyway) cloak & mirrors seem to be at the fore.

 

[James H]

I’m as curious as the next person to know what’s going on, but it’s understandable that they are not actively seeking publicity until people can actually use contactless.

 

[Haywain]

I find it quite amazing that the project is now so advanced that infrustructure is going in at stations as illustrated by Harryeurostar's photo above, but the extent of the scheme with a list of stations included still hasn't been announced to the public.

Or have I missed something?

If not, it creates an impression that the DfT has a culture of being defensive & secretive. Even with a potentially good news story (from a passenger's point of view anyway) cloak & mirrors seem to be at the fore.

I can understand not announcing anything yet, as that will avoid confusion. It is already a problem that people fail to understand the limits of the contactless and Oyster areas and turn up at stations outside the areas with those payment methods. Extending that problem by poorly timed announcements would not be a good idea, in my opinion.

 

[Chriso]

I doubt many pay from either station anyway unless heading to a London Terminal, due to open gates and South Easterns lack of revenue protection on the metro routes

 

[island]

I doubt many pay from either station anyway unless heading to a London Terminal, due to open gates and South Easterns lack of revenue protection on the metro routes

I should expect sales of e-tickets from New Cross to London Terminals to spike once they go live.

 

[XAM2175]

I can understand not announcing anything yet, as that will avoid confusion. It is already a problem that people fail to understand the limits of the contactless and Oyster areas and turn up at stations outside the areas with those payment methods. Extending that problem by poorly timed announcements would not be a good idea, in my opinion.

Yeah, I can absolutely imagine a school of thought holding that not announcing anything until it's actually ready is the safest way.

 

[fandroid]

On a GWR train from Reading to Newton Abbot, diverted via Swindon. The TM has been checking tickets and doing a fine sales job for families to buy the appropriate Railcard. This was west of Swindon. Overhead him trying to explain to one passenger that as they'd used a contactless card to tap-in at Paddington, they only had a ticket valid as far as Reading. Some way to go before everyone understands how contactless works and where it's valid!

 

[Horizon22]

On a GWR train from Reading to Newton Abbot, diverted via Swindon. The TM has been checking tickets and doing a fine sales job for families to buy the appropriate Railcard. This was west of Swindon. Overhead him trying to explain to one passenger that as they'd used a contactless card to tap-in at Paddington, they only had a ticket valid as far as Reading. Some way to go before everyone understands how contactless works and where it's valid!

There will always be this problem though - no matter where you draw the line some will think that it is valid further (or are chancing it).

 

[Hadders]

On a GWR train from Reading to Newton Abbot, diverted via Swindon. The TM has been checking tickets and doing a fine sales job for families to buy the appropriate Railcard. This was west of Swindon. Overhead him trying to explain to one passenger that as they'd used a contactless card to tap-in at Paddington, they only had a ticket valid as far as Reading. Some way to go before everyone understands how contactless works and where it's valid!

Some will try it on hoping there won’t be a ticket inspection onboard, especially if their destination station doesn’t have barriers.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There will always be this problem though - no matter where you draw the line some will think that it is valid further (or are chancing it).

That's true, and is a good argument for looking for some way to eventually extend contactless to the entire UK (Or at least, to GB). However, I imagine that by moving the boundary further away from London, it's possible that Project Oval will reduce the total numbers of people getting confused, purely because the boundary will now be located in an area where fewer people make rail journeys.

(On the other hand, if the boundary is now in an area where there are more unstaffed stations, then it could increase the proportion of people deliberately chancing it for local journeys that don't go into London )

 

[swr444]

There will always be this problem though - no matter where you draw the line some will think that it is valid further (or are chancing it).

Another problem is parents thinking their children travel free on national rail just because they tapped in when this is only permitted on TFL services

 

[fandroid]

That's true, and is a good argument for looking for some way to eventually extend contactless to the entire UK (Or at least, to GB). However, I imagine that by moving the boundary further away from London, it's possible that Project Oval will reduce the total numbers of people getting confused, purely because the boundary will now be located in an area where fewer people make rail journeys.

(On the other hand, if the boundary is now in an area where there are more unstaffed stations, then it could increase the proportion of people deliberately chancing it for local journeys that don't go into London )

I wonder what maximum fare kicks in when the chancers fail to tap out. The TOCs and TfL are going to have to find a way of dealing with abuse. I guess they'll mobilise the RPIs and have raids on destinations that turn out to be favoured.

 

[brewer85]

I wonder what maximum fare kicks in when the chancers fail to tap out. The TOCs and TfL are going to have to find a way of dealing with abuse. I guess they'll mobilise the RPIs and have raids on destinations that turn out to be favoured.

Thameslink just recently introduced a £50 incomplete journey charge for KeyGo. That may be a signal of what's likely to come.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thameslink just recently introduced a £50 incomplete journey charge for KeyGo. That may be a signal of what's likely to come.

That is steep, although understandable since you don't really want an incomplete journey charge that is less than an actual fare a person might have paid, since that would mean some passengers could save money by not tapping out.

Does KeyGo have an easy system for people to claim refunds when they've forgotten to touch out, comparable to TfL's system? Assuming it does, I guess one benefit is that most people who get at £50 incomplete journey charge from forgetting to touch in/out are likely to notice such a high charge and quickly query it, whereas I imagine a lot of people who forget to touch out on Oyster/contactless and get the much lower TfL incomplete journey charge won't particularly notice it and so will never make the effort to get the charge corrected to the actual fare.

 

[Haywain]

Thameslink just recently introduced a £50 incomplete journey charge for KeyGo. That may be a signal of what's likely to come.

And that's less than the highest fare that can be encountered using KeyGo (Bedford to Brighton Anytime Day Single is £51.60).

 

[Watershed]

And that's less than the highest fare that can be encountered using KeyGo (Bedford to Brighton Anytime Day Single is £51.60).

A Bedford to Warblington Anytime Day Single is more expensive at £73.50, but is a pretty unlikely journey.

 

[londonbridge]

There will always be this problem though - no matter where you draw the line some will think that it is valid further (or are chancing it).

Indeed, true story, I’ve overheard fans of London clubs when they come to the Stadium of light asking if they could use Oyster on the Tyne n wear metro!

Which gives me an excuse to ask this whilst I’m here, what’s the likely outcome if you DID try and tap in and out on the metro with Oyster (or, come to that, tried to tap in and out on the tube with a Nexus POP PAYG card)?

 

[Benjwri]

For journeys like that, the (usually) quickest option and most intuitive would be to change at Redhill anyways

When the Elizabeth Line core is open its only slightly slower to go Thameslink -> Elizabeth Line -> GWR to get to Reading from Gatwick, and these trains are far more frequent.

 

[PGAT]

When the Elizabeth Line core is open its only slightly slower to go Thameslink -> Elizabeth Line -> GWR to get to Reading from Gatwick, and these trains are far more frequent.

I was talking about Purley to Tonbridge, not Reading to Gatwick

 

[Horizon22]

Which gives me an excuse to ask this whilst I’m here, what’s the likely outcome if you DID try and tap in and out on the metro with Oyster (or, come to that, tried to tap in and out on the tube with a Nexus POP PAYG card)?

Surely nothing - it wouldn’t recognise the card and would give you an error at the gateline.

Then there would be penalty fares or the equivalent probably.