Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[PeterC]

There will always be this problem though - no matter where you draw the line some will think that it is valid further (or are chancing it).

This is the case in every walk if life and has always been so.

To stay with a rail example I remember a passenger waving a Network South East map at a ticket inspector on a Southend train and insisting that it showed the lines on which his Capital Card was valid.

 

[Sm5]

Will Friends and Family railcards work on this new contactless roll out ?

 

[JonathanH]

Will Friends and Family railcards work on this new contactless roll out ?

No public announcement yet so the question can't be answered.

 

[MikeWh]

Will Friends and Family railcards work on this new contactless roll out ?

Although they are planning to enable railcards to be linked with contactless cards (possibly a dumb card linked to a bank account), the issue of F&F passengers having to travel together means that it's unlikely that Railcard will work. It'll be the same railcards that can currently be linked to Oyster.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Indeed, true story, I’ve overheard fans of London clubs when they come to the Stadium of light asking if they could use Oyster on the Tyne n wear metro!

Which gives me an excuse to ask this whilst I’m here, what’s the likely outcome if you DID try and tap in and out on the metro with Oyster (or, come to that, tried to tap in and out on the tube with a Nexus POP PAYG card)?

I did very nearly this while testing the Newcastle(LNER) gateline last Thursday it just says empty card

 

[Robski_]

TfL appear to have accidentally leaked(?) some details about the extent of Phase 1 of Project Oval through a Freedom of Information request for the latest issue of "Ticketing and Revenue Update".

Following completion of physical works at stations, it looks likely that the first phase of the expansion of PAYG will focus on the following routes:

• c2c - services to Tilbury, Southend and Shoeburyness - completing the whole of the c2c network. PAYG (both Oyster and contactless) are already accepted as far as Grays.
• Thameslink - services to Sevenoaks - completing that part of the Thameslink network. PAYG (both Oyster and contactless) is already accepted as far as Swanley.
• Southern/GWR - services to Reigate - close to Redhill and the Victoria to Gatwick Airport line where PAYG is already accepted.

Fares data has already been loaded into the system for the first 22 stations on the above routes, in readiness for the launch of the first Phase of Project Oval and this unfortunately contributed to one of the issues which occurred after the recent fares revision. As outlined in the review of the March Fares Revision on Page 2 of this edition of TRU.

Installation work has now commenced at a number of South Western Railway stations on branches which are just beyond the Zone 6 boundary. These again make sense to be early extensions to the current PAYG area, as they will complete routes without adding large numbers of stations.

Further lines are likely to be added in following phases of work, but we believe that funding for the necessary works from Phase II onwards have not yet been approved by the DfT.

 

[jnjkerbin]

So by my reckoning, you would have 15 c2c stations to complete the network, 5 Thameslink stations to get to Sevenoaks, 1 for Reigate and the 22nd presumably being Dunton Green to prevent there being an odd situation of Sevenoaks having one route to London where contactless is accepted and one where it isn't.

 

[43066]

So by my reckoning, you would have 15 c2c stations to complete the network, 5 Thameslink stations to get to Sevenoaks, 1 for Reigate and the 22nd presumably being Dunton Green to prevent there being an odd situation of Sevenoaks having one route to London where contactless is accepted and one where it isn't.

Sevenoaks still isn’t contactless on Southeastern, that ends at Dunton Green. It would make a lot of sense to include Sevenoaks on the network for Southeastern passengers. Relatively few Sevenoaks passengers will use Thameslink services into central London given how long they take; most are all shacks via the Catford Loop. It will always be quicker getting an SE mainline service to LBG and changing.

For TL Sevenoaks is more of a convenient location to turn the trains around than a destination in its own right.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Sevenoaks still isn’t contactless on Southeastern, that ends at Dunton Green. It would make a lot of sense to include Sevenoaks on the network for Southeastern passengers (note very few Sevenoaks passengers will use Thameslink into central London given how long they take). You’ll always be quicker getting an SE mainline service to LBG and changing.

I know it isn't! The current extent of contactless is Knockholt on the mainline (not Dunton Green) and Swanley on the Thameslink route.

 

[43066]

I know it isn't! The current extent of contactless is Knockholt on the mainline (not Dunton Green) and Swanley on the Thameslink route.

Knockholt then. Either way, contactless isn’t accepted on either route from Sevenoaks currently. SE passengers would likely benefit more from the (long overdue) change of bringing it to Sevenoaks.

 

[telstarbox]

Correct because Knockholt station is in Greater London although the village isn't.

 

[Robski_]

So by my reckoning, you would have 15 c2c stations to complete the network, 5 Thameslink stations to get to Sevenoaks, 1 for Reigate and the 22nd presumably being Dunton Green to prevent there being an odd situation of Sevenoaks having one route to London where contactless is accepted and one where it isn't.

On another page of the TRU about the ticketing issue referred to in the quoted post, it includes a list of stations for which the anomaly occurred (included in the spoiler below). It goes on to say those are the 21 stations covered by Phase 1, not 22 as mentioned in the quoted section of my earlier post.

Spoiler: List of stations

Basildon

Bat & Ball

Benfleet

Chalkwell

Dunton Green

East Tilbury

Eynsford

Laindon-Sea

Oeigord

Pitsea

Reigate

Sevenoaks

Shoeburyness

Shoreham Kent

Southend Central

Southend East

Stanford-Le-Hope

Thorpe Bay

Westcliff

West Horndon

 

[jnjkerbin]

On another page of the TRU about the ticketing issue referred to in the quoted post, it includes a list of stations for which the anomaly occurred (included in the spoiler below). It goes on to say those are the 21 stations covered by Phase 1, not 22 as mentioned in the quoted section of my earlier post.

Spoiler: List of stations

Basildon

Bat & Ball

Benfleet

Chalkwell

Dunton Green

East Tilbury

Eynsford

Laindon-Sea

Oeigord

Pitsea

Reigate

Sevenoaks

Shoeburyness

Shoreham Kent

Southend Central

Southend East

Stanford-Le-Hope

Thorpe Bay

Westcliff

West Horndon

Seems to be missing Tilbury Town!

 

[43066]

Correct because Knockholt station is in Greater London although the village isn't.

I’m not sure that’s a hard and fast limit. Gatwick Airport and Epping are both outside Greater London, as is Dartford. It’s more about identifying logical places to extend it to.

 

[telstarbox]

Sorry I meant Knockholt has had Oyster for ages as a TfL location whereas Dunton Green hasn't because it's beyond the boundary.

 

[MikeWh]

I’m not sure that’s a hard and fast limit. Gatwick Airport and Epping are both outside Greater London, as is Dartford. It’s more about identifying logical places to extend it to.

Initially, Oyster was extended to all NR stations in zones 1-6, including Knockholt. Zone 6 includes a few branch lines that extend beyond Greater London, including Epping, Caterham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. It also included Underground and Overground in zones 7-9 North West of London and Watford Junction and the Grays area stations as the first beyond the zones.

In readiness for LO taking over GA services zones 7-9 were extended to Cheshunt and Brentwood with new beyond the zones extensions to Hertford East and Shenfield. Next up was Gatwick Airport and the addition of zone 8 for Dartford and Swanley. Finally Epsom and Cuffley were added to zone 9* and Oyster was extended to Hertford North, Potters Bar and Radlett.

Everything else has been contactless only with first Brookmans Park, then Welwyn Garden City and Luton Airport Parkway, Reading for the Elizabeth line and the Thames branches to Henley, Marlow and Windsor.

*Epsom and Cuffley are sort of in zone 9. They use zone 9 caps, but period travelcards to zones 1-6 are a lot cheaper than a zones 1-9 travelcard so GTR prefer to refer to them as outside the zones.

I hope I've got the order correct.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In this case and the two together card can't the presentation of both the railcard and a valid tap in work.

In Auckland NZ they have a really great product called AT Hop I will check again how that works

Hahaha, really great I was in Auckland two weeks ago. It's a joke. Wellington's Snapper was far better.

 

[Goldfish62]

TfL appear to have accidentally leaked(?) some details about the extent of Phase 1 of Project Oval through a Freedom of Information request for the latest issue of "Ticketing and Revenue Update".

Among the most obvious ones for SWR are Ashford and Staines and possibly on to Windsor. People are often getting caught out thinking that Ashford and Staines are in London.

 

[swr444]

Among the most obvious ones for SWR are Ashford and Staines and possibly on to Windsor. People are often getting caught out thinking that Ashford and Staines are in London.

the windsor branch has its readers installed, but under blue bags atm

 

[Goldfish62]

the windsor branch has its readers installed, but under blue bags atm

Thanks.

 

[Hadders]

I suspect Stevenage, Knebworth and Watton at Stone could be in phase 1 as it would make contactless available throughout the Great Northern inner-suburban network.

 

[43066]

Initially, Oyster was extended to all NR stations in zones 1-6, including Knockholt. Zone 6 includes a few branch lines that extend beyond Greater London, including Epping, Caterham, Tattenham Corner and Epsom Downs. It also included Underground and Overground in zones 7-9 North West of London and Watford Junction and the Grays area stations as the first beyond the zones.

In readiness for LO taking over GA services zones 7-9 were extended to Cheshunt and Brentwood with new beyond the zones extensions to Hertford East and Shenfield. Next up was Gatwick Airport and the addition of zone 8 for Dartford and Swanley. Finally Epsom and Cuffley were added to zone 9* and Oyster was extended to Hertford North, Potters Bar and Radlett.

Everything else has been contactless only with first Brookmans Park, then Welwyn Garden City and Luton Airport Parkway, Reading for the Elizabeth line and the Thames branches to Henley, Marlow and Windsor.

*Epsom and Cuffley are sort of in zone 9. They use zone 9 caps, but period travelcards to zones 1-6 are a lot cheaper than a zones 1-9 travelcard so GTR prefer to refer to them as outside the zones.

I hope I've got the order correct.

That sounds right.

Epping is an anomaly because of course it’s the end of the Central Line, despite being outside the M25. Many of the outer stations on the Met line must also be in this category. A long way out of London by any measure, but part of LU.

There have been a few other anomalous results eg for years Epsom was outside the scheme whereas Epsom Downs was within, despite Epsom Downs being geographically further out of London and a quieter and less important station.

 

[JonathanH]

There have been a few other anomalous results eg for years Epsom was outside the scheme whereas Epsom Downs was within, despite Epsom Downs being geographically further out of London and a quieter and less important station.

That predated the 2010 extension of Oyster and subsequent extensions beyond the London boundaries. They were already in Zone 6 by then.

I've always understood the extension of Zone 6 by Southern to Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham in 2005(?) as effectively an initiative by Southern to try and prevent railheading at Zone 6 stations by forgoing a small amount of revenue of trains that were running under capacity until they reached the London boundary.

Epsom clearly had its own demand and wasn't on a quiet branch line. It remains outside Zone 6, but now has Oyster and Contactless.

 

[43066]

That predated the 2010 extension of Oyster and subsequent extensions beyond the London boundaries. They were already in Zone 6 by then.

I've always understood the extension of Zone 6 by Southern to Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham in 2005(?) as effectively an initiative by Southern to try and prevent railheading at Zone 6 stations by forgoing a small amount of revenue of trains that were running under capacity until they reached the London boundary.

Epsom clearly had its own demand and wasn't on a quiet branch line. It remains outside Zone 6, but now has Oyster and Contactless.

I lived in Epsom fairly briefly circa. 2013-14 and had to buy a paper season ticket as a result, which was rather inconvenient. I seem to remember that, although they wouldn’t accept Oyster, Southern had their own keyless card system which you could use, but of course that wasn’t valid on the tube.

This predated contactless, of course. It’s amazing how much things have changed in just a few years.

 

[MikeWh]

Many of the outer stations on the Met line must also be in this category. A long way out of London by any measure, but part of LU.

They are, but in zones 7-9.

 

[Snow1964]

Among the most obvious ones for SWR are Ashford and Staines and possibly on to Windsor. People are often getting caught out thinking that Ashford and Staines are in London.

I think phase 1 includes Windsor branch and stations to Shepperton. So clearly on a line basis as geographically stations like Esher are lot nearer London.

From memory phase 2 takes South West out as far as Reading, Wokingham, Farnborough North (but not main), Aldershot, Guildford, then along line to Redhill (But excluding the suburban services towards Horsham). No idea why boundary varies so much between about 25 and 40 miles from London.

 

[cav1975]

Does anyone know how ticket validity to Tilbury Riverside will be managed under this scheme?

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone know how ticket validity to Tilbury Riverside will be managed under this scheme?

What issue do you perceive there to be to manage?

I can't really see how it could be included on the bus link.

 

[cav1975]

What issue do you perceive there to be to manage?

I can't really see how it could be included on the bus link.

My most recent journey to Tilbury Riverside was on a one way paper ticket from Chafford Hundred which included the bus between Tilbury Town and Riverside. If using contactlesss or Oyster how would this be charged?

 

[CyrusWuff]

My most recent journey to Tilbury Riverside was on a one way paper ticket from Chafford Hundred which included the bus between Tilbury Town and Riverside. If using contactlesss or Oyster how would this be charged?

It wouldn't. You'd still need to use a paper ticket, or pay the bus fare separately (currently £1.20 Single and £1.70 Return.)