Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[matt_world2004]

It doesn't have to be real time - it could work such that the railcard discount would only apply from the following day after being added to the account. In any event, I would expect some form of verification to take place rather than just allowing anyone to add a card. And, as with Oyster cards, a card with a railcard discount set would become non-transferrable.

Some gatelines are not reconciling data for weeks from them.

The consultation for project oval also required there to be a technical solution for those without bank cards

 

[Benjwri]

It doesn't have to be real time - it could work such that the railcard discount would only apply from the following day after being added to the account. In any event, I would expect some form of verification to take place rather than just allowing anyone to add a card. And, as with Oyster cards, a card with a railcard discount set would become non-transferrable.

Surely it can still be real time since contactless charging is back office and this is always online.

As you say there are no more risks than oyster, especially if it has to be verified in a similar way to some PAYG schemes.

Some gatelines are not reconciling data for weeks from them.

So they could use a railcard for max a week or so if they get lucky and know the right gatelines, the same as someone could with a blocked card.

I can count on two hands the number of times I’ve been asked for a railcard since Covid, using it in NR and TfL, the chances of someone getting away with it when they otherwise wouldn’t is very low.

The consultation for project oval also required there to be a technical solution for those without bank cards

Which is surely using oyster or it’s successor?

 

[matt_world2004]

Which is surely using oyster or it’s successor?

so a smartcard that uses tfl CPAY backend ?

Oyster is not going to be rolled out to any project oval station

 

[Benjwri]

so a smartcard that uses tfl CPAY backend ?

Oyster is not going to be rolled out to any project oval station

Project Proteus aims to make Oyster an account based ticketing system, which would remove the system limitation on oyster zones.

 

[Haywain]

Surely it can still be real time since contactless charging is back office and this is always online.

This is about verification at gatelines rather than charging. However, commencing discounted charging part way through a day would not be ideal either. With Oyster it's simple because the discount and balance is held on the card, so there can be little argument about when it is added.

 

[Benjwri]

This is about verification at gatelines rather than charging. However, commencing discounted charging part way through a day would not be ideal either. With Oyster it's simple because the discount and balance is held on the card, so there can be little argument about when it is added.

Verification at a gateline not happening over the space of a day or week isn’t a huge deal though. The amount of fare evasion due to this that isn’t caught eventually would be very low.

Regarding when the discount is applied surely it could just be from the start of day, since that’s when the card is valid from at the latest.

 

[fandroid]

I'm not sure what all the debate is about. Use of a contactless card will always incur a fare, so it's a "ticket" as soon as it's tapped in. Railcards would have to be registered at some point, as they do with Oyster, so the only fraudulent use would be if a passenger was borrowing the bank card of someone who genuinely had a Railcard. As we've seen on the Disputes and Prosecutions forum, plenty of people do actually get caught using other people's Oyster Cards, so the likelihood of being challenged is reasonably high. A suspect user could be asked to provide confirmation of id. If that doesn't match the name on the contactless card, then they can expect further investigations!

We can imagine elaborate schemes where two people conspire to share the Railcard but then fraud is always going to happen at some level, and the main thing is to stop it escalating or making significant inroads into income.

 

[matt_world2004]

I'm not sure what all the debate is about. Use of a contactless card will always incur a fare, so it's a "ticket" as soon as it's tapped in. Railcards would have to be registered at some point, as they do with Oyster, so the only fraudulent use would be if a passenger was borrowing the bank card of someone who genuinely had a Railcard. As we've seen on the Disputes and Prosecutions forum, plenty of people do actually get caught using other people's Oyster Cards, so the likelihood of being challenged is reasonably high. A suspect user could be asked to provide confirmation of id. If that doesn't match the name on the contactless card, then they can expect further investigations!

We can imagine elaborate schemes where two people conspire to share the Railcard but then fraud is always going to happen at some level, and the main thing is to stop it escalating or making significant inroads into income.

There is no way in real time to identify if someone has a railcard attached to a contactless card. That is the issue you cannot write data to a contactless card and gatelines will not be able to connect to thebinternet quick enough to identify at a real time level if a contactless card is associated with a railcard

The only elaborate schemes being thought up are from those trying to find a way of linking contactless cards to railcards and being able to inspect them in real time

 

[tomuk]

There is no way in real time to identify if someone has a railcard attached to a contactless card. That is the issue you cannot write data to a contactless card and gatelines will not be able to connect to thebinternet quick enough to identify at a real time level if a contactless card is associated with a railcard

The only elaborate schemes being thought up are from those trying to find a way of linking contactless cards to railcards and being able to inspect them in real time

There is no need to do it in real time. The number of users with railcards is relatively small, the number who would link it to their contactless card is smaller still. A very simple batch update lookup table downloaded to the gates would provide a suitably accurate indicator to allow gate staff \ rpis to police railcard use.

 

[Watershed]

There is no way in real time to identify if someone has a railcard attached to a contactless card. That is the issue you cannot write data to a contactless card and gatelines will not be able to connect to thebinternet quick enough to identify at a real time level if a contactless card is associated with a railcard

The only elaborate schemes being thought up are from those trying to find a way of linking contactless cards to railcards and being able to inspect them in real time

There's nothing elaborate required. It would work in exactly the same way as the database of hotlisted/blocked contactless and Oyster cards. It doesn't need to be 100% real time, in the same way that the aforementioned existing database doesn't update instantly - hourly or even overnight updating would suffice to catch out 99% of misuse.

There are far bigger holes and issues with the Oyster and contactless system. People really are making a mountain out of a molehill over this; the main reason why Railcards haven't been rolled out further is because TfL haven't been given the required funding to get Cubic to do the development work. There's no technological reason why it's unfeasible. It isn't a priority within TfL's limited budget unless and until paper/magstripe tickets are totally withdrawn.

 

[matt_world2004]

There is no need to do it in real time. The number of users with railcards is relatively small, the number who would link it to their contactless card is smaller still. A very simple batch update lookup table downloaded to the gates would provide a suitably accurate indicator to allow gate staff \ rpis to police railcard use.

So people will be able to link their freedom passes and staff passes to their contactless card to travel to places like reading for free?

Or would a different technical solution be required for these products.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The consultation for project oval also required there to be a technical solution for those without bank cards

Which is surely using oyster or it’s successor?

Or the TOCs could just set paper fares to be the same as PAYG ones in the Oval area, rather than going down the TfL route of effectively forcing people to switch by having a massive price differential.

 

[jfollows]

There are far bigger holes and issues with the Oyster and contactless system. People really are making a mountain out of a molehill over this; the main reason why Railcards haven't been rolled out further is because TfL haven't been given the required funding to get Cubic to do the development work. There's no technological reason why it's unfeasible. It isn't a priority within TfL's limited budget unless and until paper/magstripe tickets are totally withdrawn.

Thank you, that's well put and I agree with you. In the end the billing is done at the back-end, not in real time, so having the ability to add a railcard to a registered contactless card should cater for this. And, no, it's not totally trivial because there are other issues that others have already alluded to here, but it's something that's been "promised" for a number of years now and only now looks like it's heading towards actually being implemented. At the end of the day - in my case - it results in less money to TfL so I can see why they don't want to do it; in reality that's probably balanced by the people who make trips with a discount when they otherwise wouldn't have travelled so even there the revenue loss isn't as huge as it might seem.
And they want to withdraw paper tickets - well, OK, but not without transferring their benefits to contactless first if it can be done, please!

 

[MikeWh]

So people will be able to link their freedom passes and staff passes to their contactless card to travel to places like reading for free?

Or would a different technical solution be required for these products.

Freedom passes are already valid to Reading if using EL services.

We're not talking about linking free passes to contactless cards, that's just pointless.

 

[tomuk]

So people will be able to link their freedom passes and staff passes to their contactless card to travel to places like reading for free?

Or would a different technical solution be required for these products.

I don't follow your logic. You seem to be confusing the technical solution with the validity or otherwise of the ticketing product.

The back office system would easily detect if a linked card was used out of the area of validity. Tfl could then decide whether this would lead to a simple charging of the normal adult fare or whether some form of penalty would ensue.

 

[matt_world2004]

Freedom passes are already valid to Reading if using EL services.

We're not talking about linking free passes to contactless cards, that's just pointless.

The current solution with freedom passes and other tickets is inelegant at reading that is why I think we will see some sort of successor to the Oyster card that will incorporate these features and also allowing railcards to be added to pay as uou go travel.

 

[tomuk]

The current solution with freedom passes and other tickets is inelegant at reading that is why I think we will see some sort of successor to the Oyster card that will incorporate these features and also allowing railcards to be added to pay as uou go travel.

What is inelegant about the current solution?

 

[matt_world2004]

What is inelegant about the current solution?

Some gwR staff are not always aware ar what passes are valid on the Elizabeth line this means they interrogate you if you use a freedom pass , some claim it cannot be used in peak (It can for disabled ones) and other claims it is is only valid in zones 1-6. I had issues with a staff pass at slough because the staff member didn't recognise it as being valid.

I was working in Slough Station at the time

 

[Roast Veg]

I don't mind if they create an Oyster 2.0 based on credit/debit card tech, so long as you can add it to Apple/Google Pay.

This is actually a hugely difficult task, unless this hypothetical card is produced by MasterCard or Visa. Hence why it won't happen.

 

[tomuk]

This is actually a hugely difficult task, unless this hypothetical card is produced by MasterCard or Visa. Hence why it won't happen.

TfL issuing bank cards is not likely going to happen but replacing Oyster with some form of smartcard that only acts as a token linked to a back office account is in the plan and will happen at some point.

 

[Roast Veg]

TfL issuing bank cards is not likely going to happen but replacing Oyster with some form of smartcard that only acts as a token linked to a back office account is in the plan and will happen at some point.

And that makes sense as a direct improvement to Oyster, but it does nothing for the contactless market.

 

[JamesT]

And that makes sense as a direct improvement to Oyster, but it does nothing for the contactless market.

If your replacement for Oyster is merely a token with nothing on the card itself, then you can use a contactless bank card in exactly the same way.

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure anyone at a gateline needs to check a railcard with contactless. If the card works and isn't blocked, that's all good. The back end checks if the person has a railcard and applies a discount later.

Now the issue comes on how you apply that discount to an account to prevent fraud. If you let someone rock up at a station to ask staff to add a discount to their card, staff should make it expire on the day the railcard expires (like adding a discount to Oyster). That's fine, but what if someone decides to add the discount to multiple cards (friends and family) on the basis that inspectors can't actually check if the railcard discount has been applied elsewhere?

You could have a list that updates periodically for handheld devices to check, or perhaps you just accept that a single card might be shared (in reality, not many people are going to willingly share a credit or debit card with many people) and don't worry too much about it. And what you really need is to just stop someone showing a railcard to different staff/stations to get added to multiple cards.

Make it so your online account can generate a unique code that is given to staff (or done online) which keeps track of what card has your railcard discount applied. If you need to change contactless card, you can cancel the current card online and get a new code to apply for a new card. This would mean you can't use multiple cards, say a debit card some of the time and maybe a credit card if you're low on funds, but I think most people would accept that restriction?

In theory, such an online system could even automatically 'renew' your discount when you renew your railcard - depending on whether the DfT, RDG and TfL can share certain elements of data.

This is all assuming you manage your railcard online, which I expect most people do these days. Perhaps in the future, TfL will link up with the railcard system so you can use one login to manage both?

 

[PeterC]

I am not sure anyone at a gateline needs to check a railcard with contactless. If the card works and isn't blocked, that's all good. The back end checks if the person has a railcard and applies a discount later.

Now the issue comes on how you apply that discount to an account to prevent fraud. If you let someone rock up at a station to ask staff to add a discount to their card, staff should make it expire on the day the railcard expires (like adding a discount to Oyster). That's fine, but what if someone decides to add the discount to multiple cards (friends and family) on the basis that inspectors can't actually check if the railcard discount has been applied elsewhere?

You could have a list that updates periodically for handheld devices to check, or perhaps you just accept that a single card might be shared (in reality, not many people are going to willingly share a credit or debit card with many people) and don't worry too much about it. And what you really need is to just stop someone showing a railcard to different staff/stations to get added to multiple cards.

Make it so your online account can generate a unique code that is given to staff (or done online) which keeps track of what card has your railcard discount applied. If you need to change contactless card, you can cancel the current card online and get a new code to apply for a new card. This would mean you can't use multiple cards, say a debit card some of the time and maybe a credit card if you're low on funds, but I think most people would accept that restriction?

In theory, such an online system could even automatically 'renew' your discount when you renew your railcard - depending on whether the DfT, RDG and TfL can share certain elements of data.

This is all assuming you manage your railcard online, which I expect most people do these days. Perhaps in the future, TfL will link up with the railcard system so you can use one login to manage both?

Linking multiple cards is the main fraud risk but it is easy enough to ensure that that card number is unique to an account and is only applied to one card at a time.

There should be a process to ensure that the account holder and the card holder are the same person

 

[MrJeeves]

I am not sure anyone at a gateline needs to check a railcard with contactless. If the card works and isn't blocked, that's all good. The back end checks if the person has a railcard and applies a discount later.

Now the issue comes on how you apply that discount to an account to prevent fraud. If you let someone rock up at a station to ask staff to add a discount to their card, staff should make it expire on the day the railcard expires (like adding a discount to Oyster). That's fine, but what if someone decides to add the discount to multiple cards (friends and family) on the basis that inspectors can't actually check if the railcard discount has been applied elsewhere?

You could have a list that updates periodically for handheld devices to check, or perhaps you just accept that a single card might be shared (in reality, not many people are going to willingly share a credit or debit card with many people) and don't worry too much about it. And what you really need is to just stop someone showing a railcard to different staff/stations to get added to multiple cards.

Make it so your online account can generate a unique code that is given to staff (or done online) which keeps track of what card has your railcard discount applied. If you need to change contactless card, you can cancel the current card online and get a new code to apply for a new card. This would mean you can't use multiple cards, say a debit card some of the time and maybe a credit card if you're low on funds, but I think most people would accept that restriction?

In theory, such an online system could even automatically 'renew' your discount when you renew your railcard - depending on whether the DfT, RDG and TfL can share certain elements of data.

This is all assuming you manage your railcard online, which I expect most people do these days. Perhaps in the future, TfL will link up with the railcard system so you can use one login to manage both?

You might be overthinking this... We can just ensure railcard numbers are provided when adding the discount (as I think they already are with Oyster?).

GTR's keyGo and various other tap-and-go schemes need a picture of your railcard, and then apply the discount to your account online. Presumably they also keep a record of the railcard number as part of this, too.

 

[Ediswan]

GTR's keyGo and various other tap-and-go schemes need a picture of your railcard, and then apply the discount to your account online. Presumably they also keep a record of the railcard number as part of this, too.

They definitely do. I can see my railcard number in my account. Whether they check for uniqueness, or against a database, only they know for sure.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Linking multiple cards is the main fraud risk but it is easy enough to ensure that that card number is unique to an account and is only applied to one card at a time.

There should be a process to ensure that the account holder and the card holder are the same person

To my mind, the issue is that a railcard should only be used by the person to whom it was issued. I would have thought the best (and possibly, the only) practical way to enforce that is to make it a condition when someone buys a railcard and attaches it to a contactless card that they are now not allowed to have that contactless card used for travel by anyone else, and have them upload a photo of themselves. Then use CCTV and face recognition software at the touch-in/touch-out points at stations to identify if any contactless cards with attached railcards appear to be being used by someone other than the actual railcard holder, with that information being used to guide revenue protection staff on where to direct their efforts. My understanding is that TfL already sometimes use backend data analysis to guide revenue protection to which passengers/trains to check, so this possibly wouldn't be that great a leap in technology/procedures.

 

[Trainbike46]

To my mind, the issue is that a railcard should only be used by the person to whom it was issued. I would have thought the best (and possibly, the only) practical way to enforce that is to make it a condition when someone buys a railcard and attaches it to a contactless card that they are now not allowed to have that contactless card used for travel by anyone else, and have them upload a photo of themselves. Then use CCTV and face recognition software at the touch-in/touch-out points at stations to identify if any contactless cards with attached railcards appear to be being used by someone other than the actual railcard holder, with that information being used to guide revenue protection staff on where to direct their efforts. My understanding is that TfL already sometimes use backend data analysis to guide revenue protection to which passengers/trains to check, so this possibly wouldn't be that great a leap in technology/procedures.

That is not only a massive privacy risk (facial recognition cameras at all passengers, in particular), but also a highly expensive and complicated way of tackling what is really not that big of a problem (how much revenue does TfL really lose due to unfair railcard usage - I suspect it's not that much)

What is wrong with the current approach (used for railcards on oyster), where the gates show that a discount/free travel product was used, so that revenue protection officers can see who to pick out for checks, as well as checking for the presence of the railcard (including checking when people add the railcard)?

 

[PeterC]

What is wrong with the current approach (used for railcards on oyster), where the gates show that a discount/free travel product was used, so that revenue protection officers can see who to pick out for checks, as well as checking for the presence of the railcard (including checking when people add the railcard)?

A contactless card doesn't "know" that a discount applies. Downloading a list of every card to which a discount has been applied to every gateline and checking it against every touch in and out may be no big deal at Chesham or Theydon Bois first thing on a Sunday morning but it is going to add up at a major terminus in the rush hour.

As long as you can verify up front that you are linking John Smith's railcard to John Smith's contactless card I see little point in further verification. People are far less likely ro share credit or debit cards than they are Oyster cards.

 

[Trainbike46]

A contactless card doesn't "know" that a discount applies. Downloading a list of every card to which a discount has been applied to every gateline and checking it against every touch in and out may be no big deal at Chesham or Theydon Bois first thing on a Sunday morning but it is going to add up at a major terminus in the rush hour.

As long as you can verify up front that you are linking John Smith's railcard to John Smith's contactless card I see little point in further verification. People are far less likely ro share credit or debit cards than they are Oyster cards.

From people upthread it sounds like the solution TfL is planning for is to use a TfL issued card that uses the backend used for contactless transactions. By using a TfL issued card, it is still possible for TfL to write the contactless discount on the card locally (as well as at the backend for processing).


In any case, my post was a reaction to someone suggested a rather convoluted scheme involving facial recognition cameras at gatelines, which creates way more problems than it would solve. Verifying that the name on both the contactless card and the railcard match is a sensible idea and can easily be done, for example by the staff member adding the discount checking it when they add the discount at the station.