Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[johncrossley]

When the inspector checks your Key card when using KeyGo, can they tell if there is a railcard associated with it? Nobody has asked to see my Network Railcard when using KeyGo.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Does it matter considering the rather robust process in adding a railcard? Ultimately it comes down to if an inspector wants to see if the name on the Key card matches your photo ID.

 

[Harryeurostar]

I thought it was going to roll out in 2024? Was it announced to be delayed until March 2025

Well phase one was originally supposed to come out start of this year but although the physical infistructure can be seen at some stations, its still not here but seems to be pretty close..? So I guess its just running behind

 

[matt_world2004]

Does it matter considering the rather robust process in adding a railcard? Ultimately it comes down to if an inspector wants to see if the name on the Key card matches your photo ID.

Isn't it the rather robust process of adding a railcard and then loaning it out to all your friends ?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Isn't it the rather robust process of adding a railcard and then loaning it out to all your friends ?

The process of adding a railcard is robust given it has to match your name on the key card, and entering the railcard number, with a photo of the railcard if not a 16-17 Saver. The Key's primary anti-fraud measure is having the name printed on the card for which RPIs should be asking for should there be doubt. Ultimately, this is something for a different thread if needed to be discussed.

 

[Haywain]

When the inspector checks your Key card when using KeyGo, can they tell if there is a railcard associated with it? Nobody has asked to see my Network Railcard when using KeyGo.

I was checked on board a GTR service last week and was not asked for my railcard. I've only had one previous check and I don't think I was asked that time either.

 

[winks]

Rail commuters could benefit from cheaper and simpler journeys as a smart ticketing system looks set to be rolled out to parts of Kent.

Is there any evidence that tickets will be cheaper ? I can’t see it

 

[jon0844]

I was checked on board a GTR service last week and was not asked for my railcard. I've only had one previous check and I don't think I was asked that time either.

I expect GTR and other TOCs are trying to focus on other offences right now (such as e-ticket fraud) and may be less worried about railcards as it will just delay their movement through the train.

 

[Hadders]

The process of adding a railcard is robust given it has to match your name on the key card, and entering the railcard number, with a photo of the railcard if not a 16-17 Saver. The Key's primary anti-fraud measure is having the name printed on the card for which RPIs should be asking for should there be doubt. Ultimately, this is something for a different thread if needed to be discussed.

No photocard required with a Network Railcard.

Is there any evidence that tickets will be cheaper ? I can’t see it

Let's take a look at Brookmans Park which was the first station to get contactless only. Grant Shapps is the local MP and he was also SoS for Transport at the time, and contactless was launched to much fanfare.

Brookmans Park to London must be the most popular flow.

Current traditional ticket prices to Kings Cross:
Anytime Day Return 17.40
Off Peak Day Return (no evening restrictions) 11.50
Super Off Peak Day Return (has evening peak restrictions) 11.20
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Return 8.20

Contactless fares:
Peak 8.70
Off Peak 5.60

So a passenger travelling out in the morning peak and back in the evening peak pays £17.40 the same as an Anytime traditional ticket
A passenger travelling out off peak and back off peak pays £11.20 the same as the current super off peak ticket
A passenger travelling out off peak but back in the evening peak pays £14.30 compared to £11.50 with a paper ticket. An increase of 24%
A weekend traveller pays £11.20 compared to £8.20 using a traditional ticket. An increase of 37%
A passenger travelling out in the morning peak but back outside of the evening peak pays £14.30 compared to £17.40 with a traditional ticket. A saving of 18%

It gets even worse for railcard holders especially at weekends where a traditional railcard discounted ticket is £5.40. Use contactless and you'll pay £11.20 - an increase of 107%

Even if railcards are enabled on contactless the cost of weekend travel still increases by a massive 37%. It appears to me that the DfT aided and abetted by The Treasury is planning to increase fares massively via the back door, especially for leisure and off peak travel. They will say that it's simplificanion, what people have been asking for and there is also a general thought that contactless is cheaper, but as demonstrated above in many cases it isn't.

I doubt traditional tickets will be withdrawn straight away, they will be left in place initially but how long will it be before they get removed? DfT/RDG will call it simplification, say there's no demand, fares structure stuck in the 1990s etc.....

The current fares structure is far from ideal but we need to be very, very careful what we wish for.

 

[jon0844]

I've said many times that people who might ordinarily complain about fares going up 10 or 20p are seemingly oblivious to these 'hidden' price hikes simply because they like the convenience of tapping their credit/debit card.

Meanwhile fare evaders just buy e-tickets for one stop and refund if they can exit without having to scan it.

 

[XAM2175]

Both of these issues (which are highly marginal, in any event) would be resolved if the existing hotlist/blocked database were expanded to include details of the Railcards applied to particular cards. It's not rocket science and I'm struggling to understand why people keep suggesting that this is a huge blocker to the rollout of Railcards on contactless! All it takes is a bit of funding - but that money has not been forthcoming yet.

Indeed.

Some time ago I proposed a system on here for barcode based e-ticketing.

It was rubbished on the grounds of insufficient security.

A year or two later and an e-ticketing system was implemented that was very close to what was proposed but was slightly less secure...

I agree, and there really does seem to be a lot of talking at cross-purposes here. Obviously there needs to be a level of security above "only check Railcard when adding entitlement", and the opposite end - "write entitlement to the card a la Oyster so it can be checked whenever and wherever" is impossible.

The "maintain an offline list in the same manner as for hotlisted/blocked cards" approach is a pragmatic and sensible middle ground that is much easier to implement now than it was in the past, and similar technological advances have also made it much easier for that list to be used online for much of the time anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any evidence that tickets will be cheaper ? I can’t see it

Single fares will be cheaper if the TfL model is followed.

 

[winks]

No photocard required with a Network Railcard.


Let's take a look at Brookmans Park which was the first station to get contactless only. Grant Shapps is the local MP and he was also SoS for Transport at the time, and contactless was launched to much fanfare.

Brookmans Park to London must be the most popular flow.

Current traditional ticket prices to Kings Cross:
Anytime Day Return 17.40
Off Peak Day Return (no evening restrictions) 11.50
Super Off Peak Day Return (has evening peak restrictions) 11.20
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Return 8.20

Contactless fares:
Peak 8.70
Off Peak 5.60

So a passenger travelling out in the morning peak and back in the evening peak pays £17.40 the same as an Anytime traditional ticket
A passenger travelling out off peak and back off peak pays £11.20 the same as the current super off peak ticket
A passenger travelling out off peak but back in the evening peak pays £14.30 compared to £11.50 with a paper ticket. An increase of 24%
A weekend traveller pays £11.20 compared to £8.20 using a traditional ticket. An increase of 37%
A passenger travelling out in the morning peak but back outside of the evening peak pays £14.30 compared to £17.40 with a traditional ticket. A saving of 18%

It gets even worse for railcard holders especially at weekends where a traditional railcard discounted ticket is £5.40. Use contactless and you'll pay £11.20 - an increase of 107%

Even if railcards are enabled on contactless the cost of weekend travel still increases by a massive 37%. It appears to me that the DfT aided and abetted by The Treasury is planning to increase fares massively via the back door, especially for leisure and off peak travel. They will say that it's simplificanion, what people have been asking for and there is also a general thought that contactless is cheaper, but as demonstrated above in many cases it isn't.

I doubt traditional tickets will be withdrawn straight away, they will be left in place initially but how long will it be before they get removed? DfT/RDG will call it simplification, say there's no demand, fares structure stuck in the 1990s etc.....

The current fares structure is far from ideal but we need to be very, very careful what we wish for.

Couldn’t agree more. Fare rises through the back door. I just find paper tickets with railcard applied so much easier, and understandable compared to contactless. Especially travelling across London.

Are there any plans to extend contactless to Basingstoke ? I think I heard farnborough mentioned somewhere….

 

[PeterC]

Clearly the back end processing needs to be more complex than the Underground's binary concept of peak and off peak.. maybe three fare levels and / or three caps

 

[Haywain]

Clearly the back end processing needs to be more complex than the Underground's binary concept of peak and off peak.. maybe three fare levels and / or three caps

That's not going to happen, it's just not in scope for Project Oval.

 

[Hadders]

Couldn’t agree more. Fare rises through the back door. I just find paper tickets with railcard applied so much easier, and understandable compared to contactless. Especially travelling across London.

Are there any plans to extend contactless to Basingstoke ? I think I heard farnborough mentioned somewhere….

There's nothing wrong with contactless as a concept. It works extremely well, billions of journeys have been made using it, it's simple and quick. Passengers love it compared to paper tickets (just stand and look at an underground gateline - very few have used paper tickets for years and those that do generally only do so because contactless isn't yet available).

The issue is the fares structure as it will mean price oncreases as I described above.

 

[778]

No photocard required with a Network Railcard.


Let's take a look at Brookmans Park which was the first station to get contactless only. Grant Shapps is the local MP and he was also SoS for Transport at the time, and contactless was launched to much fanfare.

Brookmans Park to London must be the most popular flow.

Current traditional ticket prices to Kings Cross:
Anytime Day Return 17.40
Off Peak Day Return (no evening restrictions) 11.50
Super Off Peak Day Return (has evening peak restrictions) 11.20
Weekend Super Off Peak Day Return 8.20

Contactless fares:
Peak 8.70
Off Peak 5.60

So a passenger travelling out in the morning peak and back in the evening peak pays £17.40 the same as an Anytime traditional ticket
A passenger travelling out off peak and back off peak pays £11.20 the same as the current super off peak ticket
A passenger travelling out off peak but back in the evening peak pays £14.30 compared to £11.50 with a paper ticket. An increase of 24%
A weekend traveller pays £11.20 compared to £8.20 using a traditional ticket. An increase of 37%
A passenger travelling out in the morning peak but back outside of the evening peak pays £14.30 compared to £17.40 with a traditional ticket. A saving of 18%

It gets even worse for railcard holders especially at weekends where a traditional railcard discounted ticket is £5.40. Use contactless and you'll pay £11.20 - an increase of 107%

Even if railcards are enabled on contactless the cost of weekend travel still increases by a massive 37%. It appears to me that the DfT aided and abetted by The Treasury is planning to increase fares massively via the back door, especially for leisure and off peak travel. They will say that it's simplificanion, what people have been asking for and there is also a general thought that contactless is cheaper, but as demonstrated above in many cases it isn't.

I doubt traditional tickets will be withdrawn straight away, they will be left in place initially but how long will it be before they get removed? DfT/RDG will call it simplification, say there's no demand, fares structure stuck in the 1990s etc.....

The current fares structure is far from ideal but we need to be very, very careful what we wish for.

Agree with your post, except that I think that people who use paper tickets would be more likely to but a Travelcard if they are going to London rather than buy normal return tickets, because they would be probably would be using the Underground (or a bus) when they get to London.

 

[matt_world2004]

Do peak restrictions apply at weekends with contactless? Is the 8.70 peak fare Monday - Friday only?

No they don't apply at weekends

 

[Hadders]

Agree with your post, except that I think that people who use paper tickets would be more likely to but a Travelcard if they are going to London rather than buy normal return tickets, because they would be probably would be using the Underground (or a bus) when they get to London.

I agree that there will be some travelcard usage, and daily caps to consider. I'll do some further analysis when I get chance but I expect the essence of it to be similar, especially with respect to the super off peak tickets at weekends and railcards.

 

[MrJeeves]

When the inspector checks your Key card when using KeyGo, can they tell if there is a railcard associated with it? Nobody has asked to see my Network Railcard when using KeyGo.

No, as the fare calculation with discounts all happens on the backend. I believe they could theoretically check the card against their own systems, which some staff can do by scanning the barcode on the reverse of the card with their dedicated app, but I've only had that happen once (and that didn't even work, so the person let me through the barrier anyway).

Normal smartcard tickets you load at a TVM and the like do record what type of railcard is associated with it, though.

 

[wildcard]

An Oyster style card reader spotted at Berkhamsted station yesterday . At least one of the LNR Smartcard readers seems to have disappeared - I guess they will use the same wiring infrastructure where possible . Did anyone actually use the LNR card , I have yet to see anyone tap in or out . Looks like season ticket holders have lost their chance .

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfL readers can read ITSO cards, so the season ticket holders are fine. Outboundary Travelcard seasons are only issued on ITSO I believe now.

 

[CyrusWuff]

TfL readers can read ITSO cards, so the season ticket holders are fine. Outboundary Travelcard seasons are only issued on ITSO I believe now.

Still available as CCST. It's only in-boundary Travelcard Seasons that are Oyster/ITSO only at present.

 

[matt_world2004]

Still available as CCST. It's only in-boundary Travelcard Seasons that are Oyster/ITSO only at present.

I believe the Oyster readers at Elizabeth line west stations can read GwR touch smartcards with fixed origin and destination points

 

[ThameslinkUser]

with fixed origin and destination points

Standalone Oyster readers on the GTR network at stations such as Redhill work with KeyGo so I don't believe pre-loaded fixed points are a requirement.

 

[wildcard]

At least one of the LNR Smartcard readers seems to have disappeared

Just to add - all of the LNR Smartcard readers have gone at Berkhamsted . Just empty power/data conduits left . Seems a shame they couldn't be converted - they weren't fitted that long ago. As the "Oyster" reader is still to be installed - LNR cards cannot be tapped in / out .

 

[JonathanH]

Noted in another thread that c2c have priced Contactless fares at all stations on their network, and to other destinations.

For example:
Shoeburyness to Thorpe Bay is shown priced as £2.20 'Cpay peak info' and £1.70 'Cpay offpk info'

Shoeburyness to Reading is shown priced as £32 'Cpay peak info' according to BRFares, but there is no off-peak price set yet.

Interestingly, Southern have priced Reigate to Redhill at £1.70 peak and £1.50 off-peak, so presumably they are also thinking about the Contactless fare setting. Here, not all fares are set from Reigate.

No sign of a standalone reader at Reigate yet.

Chiltern are in on the act as well, with their provisional fares reaching High Wycombe, and Southeastern at Sevenoaks, but not via Eynsford.

 

[MrJeeves]

Interestingly, Southern have priced Reigate to Redhill at £1.70 peak and £1.50 off-peak, so presumably they are also thinking about the Contactless fare setting. Here, not all fares are set from Reigate.

Seems the Reigate fares span up to Victoria from some brief playing about! Also fares are set to Gatwick (£4.80/£2.60) which should be interesting.

 

[JonathanH]

Also fares are set to Gatwick (£4.80/£2.60) which should be interesting.

Why is that interesting? Contactless already goes to Gatwick, just not from Reigate.

 

[MrJeeves]

Why is that interesting? Contactless already goes to Gatwick, just not from Reigate.

Just instigates Reigate even more as their first trial/testing location.

Also expected off peak to cost a little more than £2.60 -- that's the same price as Redhill to Gatwick, but the standard paper tickets cost about 20p more from Reigate.