Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Haywain]

Could that have been a railcard discounted ITSO ticket, stored on the same card ?

Absolutely not, as I have never used one.

 

[jfollows]

I believe the current plan for Oyster is to migrate that to end of day calculations too.

Although in London I'd be interested to know the percentage of Oyster vs Contactless payments.

From https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessrev...reveal-about-central-bank-digital-currencies/:

As a percentage, usage of contactless credit and debit cards for pay-as-you-go travel has grown from nothing to 73 per cent in less than eight years (see below). The trend suggests that use of Oyster for pay-as-you-go will almost disappear in a few years.

Although I would argue that - from the chart - Oyster use has declined but is now static, the trend is that it won’t disappear unless/until something else changes the trend. It’s pretty consistent at about 40%-50% of what it was before contactless came along.
The crossover was in 2018 and contactless has led the way since, on this data. Data sources quoted in the article.

 

[etr221]

These are the addtional stations, according to Tom Edwards (BBC London transport correspondent)

x.com

x.com

(apologies I am not currently able to quote)

The speed at which this is rolling out is glacial. Still a gaping hole between Virginia Water and Reading which is ridiculous when Paddington to Reading has had contactless payments available for years. It would be nice if railcard discounts could be added at some point before I'm eligible for a senor one in 25 years too.

List extracted from Tom's tweet:

Aylesbury	Chiltern
Aylesbury Vale Parkway	Chiltern
Great Missenden	Chiltern
Little Kimble	Chiltern
Monks Risborough	Chiltern
Princes Risborough	Chiltern
Saunderton	Chiltern
Stoke Mandeville	Chiltern
Wendover	Chiltern
Billericay	Gtr Anglia
Bishop's Stortford	Gtr Anglia
Harlow Mill	Gtr Anglia
Harlow Town	Gtr Anglia
Hockley	Gtr Anglia
Prittlewell	Gtr Anglia
Rayleigh	Gtr Anglia
Rochford	Gtr Anglia
Roydon	Gtr Anglia
Sawbridgeworth	Gtr Anglia
Southend Victoria	Gtr Anglia
Stansted Airport	Gtr Anglia
Stansted Mountfitchet	Gtr Anglia
Wickford	Gtr Anglia
Chelmsford	Gtr Anglia
Hatfield Peverel	Gtr Anglia
Ingatestone	Gtr Anglia
Witham	Gtr Anglia
Southend Airport	Gtr Anglia/LSA
Ashtead	GTR
Box Hill & Westhumble	GTR
Dorking (Main)	GTR
Hurst Green	GTR
Leatherhead	GTR
Oxted	GTR
Welwyn North	GTR
Woldingham	GTR
Dormans	GTR
East Grinstead	GTR
Harlington	GTR
Knebworth	GTR
Leag rave	GTR
Lingfield	GTR
Luton	GTR
Reigate	GTR
Watton-at-Stone	GTR

 

[Goldfish62]

I believe the current plan for Oyster is to migrate that to end of day calculations too.

Yes, TfL are currently undertaking a project to enable just that. I wonder if that means that Oyster could be expanded to the entire contactless area, thus solving the railcard issue.

 

[Trainbike46]

From https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessrev...reveal-about-central-bank-digital-currencies/:
View attachment 164875

Although I would argue that - from the chart - Oyster use has declined but is now static, the trend is that it won’t disappear unless/until something else changes the trend. It’s pretty consistent at about 40%-50% of what it was before contactless came along.
The crossover was in 2018 and contactless has led the way since, on this data. Data sources quoted in the article.

I suspect most people still using Oyster are people with railcards, people who can't or don't want to use a contactless bank card, and possibly people with certain season tickets?

Yes, TfL are currently undertaking a project to enable just that. I wonder if that means that Oyster could be expanded to the entire contactless area, thus solving the railcard issue.

I hope so

 

[jfollows]

Yes, TfL are currently undertaking a project to enable just that. I wonder if that means that Oyster could be expanded to the entire contactless area, thus solving the railcard issue.

It wouldn’t solve the issue for people like me who have railcards but don’t use (and don’t want to use) Oyster, would it?

I suspect most people still using Oyster are people with railcards, people who can't or don't want to use a contactless bank card, and possibly people with certain season tickets?

The article I took the chart from talks about privacy/confidentiality and that’s a good reason to prefer Oyster to contactless, for sure. It’s not a concern of mine, which is why I’m happy with contactless.

 

[Goldfish62]

From https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessrev...reveal-about-central-bank-digital-currencies/:
View attachment 164875

Although I would argue that - from the chart - Oyster use has declined but is now static, the trend is that it won’t disappear unless/until something else changes the trend. It’s pretty consistent at about 40%-50% of what it was before contactless came along.
The crossover was in 2018 and contactless has led the way since, on this data. Data sources quoted in the article.

Indeed. Oyster is still the only way that people without a bank account can pay to use buses in London. Based on the above there are over 1.4m Oyster transactions daily.

It wouldn’t solve the issue for people like me who have railcards but don’t use (and don’t want to use) Oyster, would it?

Well, if you don't have an Oyster card and don't want one then clearly expansion of Oyster validity won't help, no! The only reason I have an Oyster is for the railcard discount.

 

[matt_world2004]

It wouldn’t solve the issue for people like me who have railcards but don’t use (and don’t want to use) Oyster, would it?

Paper tickets and the operators own smart ticketing solution will still exist.

 

[DailyCommuter]

The list of stations is now on the press release too:

Transport Secretary fires the starting gun on rail reform as Public Ownership Bill reaches final stages in Commons

Government to prioritise passengers over private companies and reverse decades of delays, cancellations and unreliable services on Britain’s railways.

www.gov.uk

 

[A S Leib]

I wonder why Uckfield's excluded; avoiding Edenbridge Town until (unless, given how long North Downs is taking) Redhill – Tonbridge is covered?

No mention of any progress on the West Midlands or Greater Manchester schemes, or anywhere else.

 

[higthomas]

I suspect most people still using Oyster are people with railcards, people who can't or don't want to use a contactless bank card, and possibly people with certain season tickets?

I'd suspect the biggest users will be those who qualify for a free oyster, i.e. children, 60+ etc

Not sure what their plans will be for them.

 

[Recessio]

I'd suspect the biggest users will be those who qualify for a free oyster, i.e. children, 60+ etc

Not sure what their plans will be for them.

I think you're right - it would be interesting to see a breakdown in Oyster vs Contactless, for Residents vs Tourists.

Surprised and a bit disappointed more stations on SWR weren't featured in the most recent announcement. As well as the aforementioned Virginia Water to Reading, I'm still surprised stations down to Guildford haven't made the list.

 

[JonathanH]

Surprised and a bit disappointed more stations on SWR weren't featured in the most recent announcement. As well as the aforementioned Virginia Water to Reading, I'm still surprised stations down to Guildford haven't made the list.

It is a twin edged sword though. For every disappointment that some commuters will have to wait longer for the flexibility and convenience of Contactless PAYG, there will be relief from other off-peak travellers that they don't yet have a date when their route starts to have new evening peak restrictions or higher fares at the weekend.

 

[MikeWh]

Surprised and a bit disappointed more stations on SWR weren't featured in the most recent announcement. As well as the aforementioned Virginia Water to Reading, I'm still surprised stations down to Guildford haven't made the list.

It would not surprise me in the slightest to learn that stations like Guildford are posing issues with setting fares where it won't be possible to know which route has been taken.

 

[JonathanH]

It would not surprise me in the slightest to learn that stations like Guildford are posing issues with setting fares where it won't be possible to know which route has been taken.

Does that matter?

Taking something like Guildford to Croydon, which currently has prices for four routes (Not via Clapham Junction, Not via London, Redhill and + Any Permitted), my guess is that a higher fare can be set going via London Terminals quite easily, which then leaves the other three routes. Wouldnt they just come up with something close to the highest fare and just say they are reducing the complexity?

To some extent I don't understand why there hasn't been consolidation of options in the run up to the implementation of Project Oval, so that all of these issues are disconnected with the introduction of PAYG.

 

[etr221]

Does that matter?

Taking something like Guildford to Croydon, which currently has prices for four routes (Not via Clapham Junction, Not via London, Redhill and + Any Permitted), my guess is that a higher fare can be set going via London Terminals quite easily, which then leaves the other three routes. Wouldnt they just come up with something close to the highest fare and just say they are reducing the complexity?

To some extent I don't understand why there hasn't been consolidation of options in the run up to the implementation of Project Oval, so that all of these issues are disconnected with the introduction of PAYG.

To go to basics, should there be different fares for different routes?
It is contrary to the paradigm for touch-in/touch-out PAYG: that fares are set and paid for travel from one station to another, which is what defines the journey.
If I want to travel from Croydon to Guildford, that is what I want to do: which way is essentially irrelevant.

 

[Meerkat]

To go to basics, should there be different fares for different routes?
It is contrary to the paradigm for touch-in/touch-out PAYG: that fares are set and paid for travel from one station to another, which is what defines the journey.
If I want to travel from Croydon to Guildford, that is what I want to do: which way is essentially irrelevant.

Depends if you want to encourage people to take the less busy route.
And possibly a journey around the outside of London might be cheaper than one into London so it becomes a cheat way to get a cheaper ticket to London.

 

[JonathanH]

Depends if you want to encourage people to take the less busy route.
And possibly a journey around the outside of London might be cheaper than one into London so it becomes a cheat way to get a cheaper ticket to London.

With PAYG, that doesnt happen, because you can't 'stop short'.

What we don't know though is whether the principles of the implementation of Project Oval allow there to be one single fare for PAYG for journeys like Guildford to Croydon, but multiple 'paper' fares with different routeing to reflect that passengers could be stopping short on the paper tickets.

 

[Recessio]

It would not surprise me in the slightest to learn that stations like Guildford are posing issues with setting fares where it won't be possible to know which route has been taken.

Could there be the equivalent of pink oyster readers for Project Oval? Eg in this case if someone went Guildford-Gatwick-Croydon, they could tap a pink reader at Gatwick to show they didn't go via London

 

[SynthD]

Could there be the equivalent of pink oyster readers for Project Oval? Eg in this case if someone went Guildford-Gatwick-Croydon, they could tap a pink reader at Gatwick to show they didn't go via London

One alternative is different barriers for certain platforms. Another is that DfT accepts the minor loss from assuming people go the cheaper option, as used on the Overground for going through Shoreditch on certain journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One alternative is different barriers for certain platforms. Another is that DfT accepts the minor loss from assuming people go the cheaper option, as used on the Overground for going through Shoreditch on certain journeys.

The "pink reader" system is fairly well established - assume expensive, allow that to prove you went cheap - though it doesn't work if there isn't interchange.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Could there be the equivalent of pink oyster readers for Project Oval? Eg in this case if someone went Guildford-Gatwick-Croydon, they could tap a pink reader at Gatwick to show they didn't go via London

Given no new routing (pink) validators have been installed as part of Phase 1, I'd suggest the same is likely to be the case for Phase 2.

 

[plugwash]

Taking something like Guildford to Croydon, which currently has prices for four routes (Not via Clapham Junction, Not via London, Redhill and + Any Permitted), my guess is that a higher fare can be set going via London Terminals quite easily,

afaict you would need to either redesign the barrier layout at waterloo/waterloo east, or accept that there was a loophole there.

Apologies, I thought the link was inside the barriers, but it actually seems to be outside them.

 

[Meerkat]

With PAYG, that doesnt happen, because you can't 'stop short'.

What we don't know though is whether the principles of the implementation of Project Oval allow there to be one single fare for PAYG for journeys like Guildford to Croydon, but multiple 'paper' fares with different routeing to reflect that passengers could be stopping short on the paper tickets.

Exactly, if you price the same you can’t push people to the route you want them on, and it’s hard to price differently with PAYG.

 

[Haywain]

What we don't know though is whether the principles of the implementation of Project Oval allow there to be one single fare for PAYG for journeys like Guildford to Croydon, but multiple 'paper' fares with different routeing to reflect that passengers could be stopping short on the paper tickets.

Err, Reading to London, Southend on sea to London...?

 

[JonathanH]

Err, Reading to London, Southend on sea to London...?

Reading doesn't yet have PAYG on the line via Wokingham and 'Project Oval' paper fares haven't been set up for journeys from Reading to places not in Phase 1.

Southend Victoria appears to be in Phase 2 but there is no ambiguity about which route is being taken from Southend to London because of the separate stations there. I look forward to seeing whether there are separate fares from Shoeburyness to Romford depending on whether a passenger goes via Upminster or Southend Victoria.

 

[OneOfThe48]

whether a passenger goes via Upminster or Southend Victoria.

Would that not be two separate journeys if you go via Southend Victoria?

Shoeburyness <> Southend Central
Southend Victoria <> Romford

Or have I confused how the contactless system can stitch together journeys

 

[Hadders]

Would that not be two separate journeys if you go via Southend Victoria?

Shoeburyness <> Southend Central
Southend Victoria <> Romford

Or have I confused how the contactless system can stitch together journeys

Contactless links journeys together using what is called an out of station interchange, assuming the relevent touch out/in happen within a set time period. This assumes that when Phase 2 launches Southend Central and Southend Victoria are set up as an out of station interchange

 

[OneOfThe48]

Contactless links journeys together using what is called an out of station interchange, assuming the relevent touch out/in happen within a set time period. This assumes that when Phase 2 launches Southend Central and Southend Victoria are set up as an out of station interchange

Thanks Hadders. Stand fully corrected. Entirely forgot about OSIs.

 

[iphone76]

On Greater Anglia, I'm surprised to see they haven't included the Wickford to Southminster line which branches off the Southend Victoria line.

Quite a few journeys are made between stations on both branches so I was expecting both lines to be included at the same time.

I hope people don't tap in (even though it won't work) using the existing smart card readers on the Southminster line then get penalty fared either at Liverpool Street or Southend (or on the train), when the barriers don't open.

Also, as mentioned above, could this create anomalies where for example a paper ticket from Battlesbridge, the first stop on the Southminster line is cheaper / more flexible than a contactless payment at Wickford? (Sorry - even I'm now lost with how these things all work).