Proposals to reopen Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton

[paul1609]

Equally, as others have said, it doesn’t mean the bus passengers would use the train. The existing bus serves intermediate villages down the A386 (which the train couldn’t) and also directly serves the parts of Plymouth that many passengers went to get to - the hospital, schools, the city centre.

A high quality, high frequency express coach, running non stop from Tavistock directly to the Hospital, then station and city centre would offer better connectivity (to Plymouth) and better generalised journey time than a rail option. That means it is likely to offer greater benefit than the rail option, for (much) lower cost and environmental impact, and it can be delivered much more quickly - months rather than years. I’ve said elsewhere before - it would save so much money compared to buildings railway you could make it free to use and still be massively ‘quids in’.

Now, I agree that the line to Tavistock will have a better case for reopening than Okehampton - Bere Alston, but that doesn’t make it a ‘slam dunk’ and neither does it mean that properly scope alternatives shouldn’t be considered.

If you want to re-open a railway from Tavistock to Plymouth the benefits (if not the costs) would be much higher if you re-opened the South Devon & Tavistock Railway to a new station at Plymouth Barbican (formerly Friary) via Yelverton & Dartmoor Parkway. Derriford could be served by a high quality cablecar with integrated ticketing from a new station at Plym Bridge which would also be the first in the UK to offer a hire canoe service. Of course the rail industry especially the stuck in the muds Network Rail would stifle innovation for such an obviously beneficial scheme.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Equally, as others have said, it doesn’t mean the bus passengers would use the train. The existing bus serves intermediate villages down the A386 (which the train couldn’t) and also directly serves the parts of Plymouth that many passengers went to get to - the hospital, schools, the city centre.

A high quality, high frequency express coach, running non stop from Tavistock directly to the Hospital, then station and city centre would offer better connectivity (to Plymouth) and better generalised journey time than a rail option. That means it is likely to offer greater benefit than the rail option, for (much) lower cost and environmental impact, and it can be delivered much more quickly - months rather than years. I’ve said elsewhere before - it would save so much money compared to buildings railway you could make it free to use and still be massively ‘quids in’.

Now, I agree that the line to Tavistock will have a better case for reopening than Okehampton - Bere Alston, but that doesn’t make it a ‘slam dunk’ and neither does it mean that properly scoped alternatives shouldn’t be considered.

Those alternatives do not compare. The goal here is to reopen railway lines that would be viable, which Tavistock is.

Unless you’re driving the road is very unattractive and it will just force people to drive.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2021 ==

The money saved by this emminently sensible suggestion should go towards the railway project that would most benefit the most populated parts of South Devon, Plymouth and Cornwall - a new direct line from Exeter to Plymouth, with a branch to connect with the Torbay line around Newton Abbot.
The railway must invest in what it does best - carrying large numbers of passengers, preferably at high speeds, and bulk goods traffic. Re-instating country branch and cross country lines is just not worth the money.
Most of the problems raised with rural bus services are concerning the different financial and regulatory regime compared to railways - this could be fixed without any 'spades in the ground' expense at all.

The money saved by not reopening the ex-LSWR route wouldn’t even get you through planning for a new route from Exeter to Plymouth. That would cost 10’s of billions. There is a reason why the current route is on the alignment that it is, and that’s because without tunnelling the whole thing (which is mega expensive) there is no other option.

 

[RT4038]

Those alternatives do not compare. The goal here is to reopen railway lines that would be viable, which Tavistock is.

Unless you’re driving the road is very unattractive and it will just force people to drive.

I very much doubt, taking into account the re-instatement costs and the huge operating costs compared to buses, that the Tavistock line would be viable. No other similar lines around the country are. Another subsidy sink hole.

 

[Bald Rick]

The goal here is to reopen railway lines that would be viable, which Tavistock is.

Aha. A very common mistake.

The ‘goal’ is not to reopen lines that would be viable. The ‘goal’ is to improve transport connectivity to improve the local economy, and thus improve the lives of the local population. A new railway is one possible answer. It is not the only one.

And, how do you know Tavistock is “viable”? It’s certainly feasible, but how have you determined it is viable, ie worth doing?

That would cost 10’s of billions.

Really? How have you reached that conclusion? I agree it’s not going to happen, but then neither is reopening Okehampton to Bere Alston.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

If you want to re-open a railway from Tavistock to Plymouth the benefits (if not the costs) would be much higher if you re-opened the South Devon & Tavistock Railway to a new station at Plymouth Barbican (formerly Friary) via Yelverton & Dartmoor Parkway. Derriford could be served by a high quality cablecar with integrated ticketing from a new station at Plym Bridge which would also be the first in the UK to offer a hire canoe service. Of course the rail industry especially the stuck in the muds Network Rail would stifle innovation for such an obviously beneficial scheme.

Friary should have opened long ago. The station is ideally placed would do well. You only have to look at it’s location to see this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2021 ==

Really? How have you reached that conclusion? I agree it’s not going to happen, but then neither is reopening Okehampton to Bere Alston.

If reopening 20 odd miles of track that already has an existing tracked bed with structures already in place, then rebuilding 40 miles (most of which will be in a tunnel) is going to cost considerably more.

As with HS2, a few billion could get lost in feasibility study’s and planning before a boot hits the ground. You somehow have to find a way out of Exeter (junction near Exmisnter seems like the best place) then through Haldon and up over Dartmoor as the current route runs adjacent to it.

As for a branch to Torbay, that would be near impossible a the local area is to populated. There isn’t space for a new line.

 

[RT4038]

The money saved by not reopening the ex-LSWR route wouldn’t even get you through planning for a new route from Exeter to Plymouth. That would cost 10’s of billions. There is a reason why the current route is on the alignment that it is, and that’s because without tunnelling the whole thing (which is mega expensive) there is no other option.

If we can dig a tunnel under the Channel, build HS2 much in tunnel, and the Swiss can build a 57km long rail tunnel under a huge mountain, a new line requiring several tunnels should not be outwith our capability. Whether it is value for money is another matter, but it would have a greater positive long term impact to more people and areas than reopening rural branch lines round the edge of Dartmoor, or anywhere else in Devon or Cornwall.

 

[Bald Rick]

If reopening 20 odd miles of track that already has an existing tracked bed with structures already in place, then rebuilding 40 miles (most of which will be in a tunnel) is going to cost considerably more.

As with HS2, a few billion could get lost in feasibility study’s and planning before a boot hits the ground. You somehow have to find a way out of Exeter (junction near Exmisnter seems like the best place) then through Haldon and up over Dartmoor as the current route runs adjacent to it.

As for a branch to Torbay, that would be near impossible a the local area is to populated. There isn’t space for a new line.

Or, in summary: “I don’t know the answer to your question”

Just so it’s clear - the planning and development process required to open a new line would be exactly the same for Okehampton - Bere Alston as it would be for an all new line across / under Dartmoor. Indeed, it is typically easier (and therefore cheaper) to design and plan a railway largely in tunnel. I speak as someone who has been involved in planning and development for both types.

 

[RT4038]

As for a branch to Torbay, that would be near impossible a the local area is to populated. There isn’t space for a new line.

I said 'with a branch to connect with the Torbay line around Newton Abbot'. A connecting branch from the new line into Newton Abbot which would then connect with the existing line to Torbay.

 

[21C101]

Equally, as others have said, it doesn’t mean the bus passengers would use the train. The existing bus serves intermediate villages down the A386 (which the train couldn’t) and also directly serves the parts of Plymouth that many passengers went to get to - the hospital, schools, the city centre.

A high quality, high frequency express coach, running non stop from Tavistock directly to the Hospital, then station and city centre would offer better connectivity (to Plymouth) and better generalised journey time than a rail option. That means it is likely to offer greater benefit than the rail option, for (much) lower cost and environmental impact, and it can be delivered much more quickly - months rather than years. I’ve said elsewhere before - it would save so much money compared to buildings railway you could make it free to use and still be massively ‘quids in’.

Now, I agree that the line to Tavistock will have a better case for reopening than Okehampton - Bere Alston, but that doesn’t make it a ‘slam dunk’ and neither does it mean that properly scoped alternatives shouldn’t be considered.

I think your proposal would be ideal for Ilfracombe, Bideford, Torringon and South Molton with the proviso that through London to Barnstaple trains are provided, as well as for Sidmouth, Seaton, Lyme Regis, Chard, Yeovil?and Shaftesbury (and Bude and Launceston assuming Okehampton reopens and has through London Trains.

I am unconvinced a **high quality** bus link from Tavy to Plymouth is feasible, due to the endemic congestion on the A386.

Were there not a railway to Bere Alston then it would be the only feasible option but there is one.

All the existing infrastructure on the Plymouth to Bere Alston route has to be paid for (and boy there is a lot of it like the Tavy Viaduct) and while reopening to Tavistock has a capital cost, the revenue from it would also offset the huge ongoing cost of maintaining the existing line from Bere Alston to St Budeaux.

A new station at Plympton and perhaps too at Mutley (what a glorious name) with through Tavistock to Newton Abbot services, might just see Plymouth replicate the success of the Exmouth to Paignton service.

Okehampton to Tavistock is another matter which I wouldn't do anything about other than land purchase when available until such time as Okehampton and Tavistock are both running daily passenger trains again (at which point a Tavistock to Launceston/Bude via Okehampton high quality bus service might fly).

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Or, in summary: “I don’t know the answer to your question”

Just so it’s clear - the planning and development process required to open a new line would be exactly the same for Okehampton - Bere Alston as it would be for an all new line across / under Dartmoor. Indeed, it is typically easier (and therefore cheaper) to design and plan a railway largely in tunnel. I speak as someone who has been involved in planning and development for both types.

No wonder I don’t know the answer to your question, it’s an impossible question to answer. Something of that scale is unlikely to be funded by the government any where in country, let alone in Devon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2021 ==

If we can dig a tunnel under the Channel, build HS2 much in tunnel, and the Swiss can build a 57km long rail tunnel under a huge mountain, a new line requiring several tunnels should not be outwith our capability. Whether it is value for money is another matter, but it would have a greater positive long term impact to more people and areas than reopening rural branch lines round the edge of Dartmoor, or anywhere else in Devon or Cornwall.

There is no doubt we could do it, but does the Government really want to spend that much money on a like for a few millions people in Devon and Cornwall?

 

[21C101]

Friary should have opened long ago. The station is ideally placed would do well. You only have to look at it’s location to see thi

Don't agree there. It was quicker to bail out at North Road and walk to Friary than it was to stay on train and proceed round a large circle.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Don't agree there. It was quicker to bail out at North Road and walk to Friary than it was to stay on train and proceed round a large circle.

It might have been quicker, but speed isn’t everything.

Some people wouldn’t want to walk and would rather take the train. Friary’s position is underestimated and why it hasn’t been opened yet is beyond me.

 

[21C101]

Or, in summary: “I don’t know the answer to your question”

Just so it’s clear - the planning and development process required to open a new line would be exactly the same for Okehampton - Bere Alston as it would be for an all new line across / under Dartmoor. Indeed, it is typically easier (and therefore cheaper) to design and plan a railway largely in tunnel. I speak as someone who has been involved in planning and development for both types.

Yes, but designing and planning costs are rather dwarfed by construction costs.

Especially when your tunnel is through solid granite rather than the ideal tunnelling mediums of London Clay and Chalk Marl.

And a new alignment can't take advantage of an old alignment that has 90% of its structures intact, well and continuously maintained, almost indestructably constructed from solid granite stones and all owned by the same owner (Devon County Council) who is enthusiastically in favour of reopening.

 

[Bald Rick]

the revenue from it would also offset the huge ongoing cost of maintaining the existing line from Bere Alston to St Budeaux.

The revenue from a service to Tavistock would be unlikely to cover the cost of running a service to Tavistock, let alone contributing to the cost of maintiang the infrastructure of the new line, before we get to being able to contribute to the infrastructure of the existing line.

No wonder I don’t know the answer to your question, it’s an impossible question to answer. Something of that scale is unlikely to be funded by the government any where in country, let alone in Devon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2021 ==


There is no doubt we could do it, but does the Government really want to spend that much money on a like for a few millions people in Devon and Cornwall?

Well, let me help. A new line, largely in tunnel, from somewhere on the outskirts of Exeter to somewhere on the outskirts of Plymouth, with no intermediate stations, would be in the region of £5-8bn. That’s based on the costs of ‘similar projects elsewhere’. Planning and development would be about half a billion.

Does the Government want to spend that sort of money that benefit ‘a few million’ people in Devon and Cornwall? Almost certainly not. But in the same way, I doubt that Government will want to spend getting on for a billion quid opening a line from Okehampton to Bere Alston that benefits a few tens of thousands of people.

 

[yorksrob]

The revenue from a service to Tavistock would be unlikely to cover the cost of running a service to Tavistock, let alone contributing to the cost of maintiang the infrastructure of the new line, before we get to being able to contribute to the infrastructure of the existing line.

Didn't the last study on Tavistock find that takings (admittedly in pre-covid world) would meet revenue costs ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2021 ==

I think that in terms of the existing main line, the current works in Dawlish and other stretches will preclude building a by-pass line, simply to speed up the existing market.

New railway investment will have to serve new populations.

 

[Bald Rick]

Especially when your tunnel is through solid granite rather than the ideal tunnelling mediums of London Clay and Chalk Marl.

Granite really isn’t an issue. TBMs designed for Granite can do 150m a week (and have done).

I am not advocating, in any way, that such a line under Dartmoor is a sensible thing to do, by the way.

Didn't the last study on Tavistock find that takings (admittedly in pre-covid world) would meet revenue costs ?

I’m going to have to check that. I guess it depends on what happens to Gunnislake.

 

[Glenn1969]

Take it you don't think improving links from Devon and Cornwall or attracting more tourists to use rail are a good thing then? If as I think one day the current route is washed away and no alternative is available how do people get to or from South Devon or Cornwall? Dawlish seems to be hit hard every time there is a storm down there?

 

[21C101]

Didn't the last study on Tavistock find that takings (admittedly in pre-covid world) would meet revenue costs ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2021 ==

I think that in terms of the existing main line, the current works in Dawlish and other stretches will preclude building a by-pass line, simply to speed up the existing market.

New railway investment will have to serve new populations.

The unsaid thing here with Okehampton (and possibly Bow and North Tawton too) and to an extent unsaid at Tavistock is that additional revenue will be generated by building mucho new houses.

The good folk of Winslow will get a similar surprise soon, and the good folk of all those little halts between Bedford and Bletchley which half the people on here want to close have already had that surprise and the builders have moved in.

In fact I'm wondering how long it will take for someone trying to complete the circle on the business case for final authority on the Aylesbury to Calvert to twig that there is an intact station at Quainton Road and a lot of empty green fields next to it.

 

[MarkyT]

Take it you don't think improving links from Devon and Cornwall or attracting more tourists to use rail are a good thing then? If as I think one day the current route is washed away and no alternative is available how do people get to or from South Devon or Cornwall? Dawlish seems to be hit hard every time there is a storm down there?

2014 was very much an outlier in terms of the scale of disruption. The storm surgically targetted the weakest point of the infrastructure where only a single skin full-height wall existed, something that was remedied immediately afterward. Further sections of wall at risk have now been tackled near Dawlish and a major project to protect the station area is underway. The next area of highest risk, the cliffs approaching Teignmouth, will be addressed by a major reconstruction being planned currently. Beyond that, there will be further work to do on the Exe and Teign estuary sections where the risk is flooding from the track being close to high water levels rather than storm damage or cliff collapse. All this work should secure the route for at least the next century, taking into account worst-case sea-level rise and storm activity expected, and result in the risk of such a major closure occuring again reducing to negligible levels.

 

[Bald Rick]

Take it you don't think improving links from Devon and Cornwall or attracting more tourists to use rail are a good thing then? If as I think one day the current route is washed away and no alternative is available how do people get to or from South Devon or Cornwall? Dawlish seems to be hit hard every time there is a storm down there?

Oh I’m all for improving links to Devon and Cornwall. Which is why after careful analysis, there is a massive building site just off shore at Dawlish. Be assured that a lot more of Devon will be affected before that new massive lump of concrete with tracks on top through Dawlish goes again.

 

[Irascible]

I think your proposal would be ideal for Ilfracombe, Bideford, Torringon and South Molton with the proviso that through London to Barnstaple trains are provided, as well as for Sidmouth, Seaton, Lyme Regis, Chard, Yeovil?and Shaftesbury (and Bude and Launceston assuming Okehampton reopens and has through London Trains.

I will dispute Ilfracombe given it's the other side of Exmoor to Barnstaple ( but I made my views on that clear before ), would *definitely* be good for Bideford/Torrington and it'd help Lyme a lot, but for the other Lyme Bay towns it's quicker just to bus to Exeter. Seaton is *supposed* to have a connecting bus to Axminster already, but the whole journey ends up slower than the X9. The WoE is somewhat unfortunately routed in East Devon, manages to be just out of reach of the coastal population.

Well, let me help. A new line, largely in tunnel, from somewhere on the outskirts of Exeter to somewhere on the outskirts of Plymouth, with no intermediate stations, would be in the region of £5-8bn. That’s based on the costs of ‘similar projects elsewhere’. Planning and development would be about half a billion.

Out of interest, if you have some idea what would be the rough cost of -

*) Wiring Bristol to Exeter
*) Wiring the B&H to Exeter
*) Wiring Exeter to Plymouth
*) Wiring and presumably resignalling Plymouth to Penzance. Would we be ready for ERTMS in time for that?

and if you have any idea, wiring Taunton-Exeter & Exeter-Newton Abbott ( does wiring along the sea *actually* cost more? ) just so we can estimate combinations. I'll attempt to avoid pretending to be a civil engineer but I'll assume new cutoffs on the current route would cost about the same per mile as the DAL plans.

I wonder if losing the view if a new line was tunnelled under the area would be an actual factor driving noticeable choices of mode - Plymouth isn't exactly a tourist destination but the area in general is. ( I also don't think you were really serious with that ).

Oh I’m all for improving links to Devon and Cornwall. Which is why after careful analysis, there is a massive building site just off shore at Dawlish. Be assured that a lot more of Devon will be affected before that new massive lump of concrete with tracks on top through Dawlish goes again.

Unless we want to abandon Dawlish itself, the protection from the sea needs to be ( and is being ) done regardless if there's a railway on it, yep. The Exe needs a new flood protection scheme all the way north of Exeter if it's going to be done properly too, although issues from the sea can't make it past Exeter at least. Just wait until the Somerset Levels start flooding more regularily...

If you want to re-open a railway from Tavistock to Plymouth the benefits (if not the costs) would be much higher if you re-opened the South Devon & Tavistock Railway to a new station at Plymouth Barbican (formerly Friary) via Yelverton & Dartmoor Parkway. Derriford could be served by a high quality cablecar with integrated ticketing from a new station at Plym Bridge which would also be the first in the UK to offer a hire canoe service. Of course the rail industry especially the stuck in the muds Network Rail would stifle innovation for such an obviously beneficial scheme.

( as an aside, someone genuinely attempted to run a sea-bus service along Lyme Bay, running the boat up on the beaches to board it ).

Where would an ideal commuter station in Plymouth be? nowhere a railway has ever been, presumably?

 

[Bald Rick]

Wiring Bristol to Exeter
*) Wiring the B&H to Exeter
*) Wiring Exeter to Plymouth
*) Wiring and presumably resignalling Plymouth to Penzance. Would we be ready for ERTMS in time for that?

Very, very roughly - For OLE, however many kilometres of track to be done, and multiply by £3m. (This is roughly the average cost for electrification of a single track km, including all necessary civils, platform, station, signalling and other works; actual electrication and power is about half that).

So, assuming I have my kms right, to the nearest £100m,

Bristol TM - Exeter £700m
Cogload - Newbury £800m
Exeter - Plymouth £500m
Plymouth - Penzance £700m

The signalling will happen one day regardless of electrification.

 

[Irascible]

Very, very roughly - For OLE, however many kilometres of track to be done, and multiply by £3m. (This is roughly the average cost for electrification of a single track km, including all necessary civils, platform, station, signalling and other works; actual electrication and power is about half that).

So, assuming I have my kms right, to the nearest £100m,

Bristol TM - Exeter £700m
Cogload - Newbury £800m
Exeter - Plymouth £500m
Plymouth - Penzance £700m

The signalling will happen one day regardless of electrification.

Thanks for that. So Cogload-Plymouth would be about £1200 per head in geographical Devon if we wanted to fund it all, and the Cornish bit about the same for the Cornish population. Assuming things like tunnels/sea walls/viaducts don't bump the estimates way up that's rather less than I was expecting.

IIRC the full-feature LSWR line would be about £1b in today's money? about £770 each.

 

[MarkyT]

The signalling will happen one day regardless of electrification.

And is pushing 40 years old already in the Exeter area, being installed in the mid-1980s, 50 to 60 yo around Plymouth, and to put it politely and accurately, 'mixed' in Cornwall with some elements going back around a century (although all perfectly well maintained, safe and fit for purpose)!

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks for that. So Cogload-Plymouth would be about £1200 per head in geographical Devon if we wanted to fund it all, and the Cornish bit about the same for the Cornish population. Assuming things like tunnels/sea walls/viaducts don't bump the estimates way up that's rather less than I was expecting.

IIRC the full-feature LSWR line would be about £1b in today's money? about £770 each.

Yes. Those electrification costs explain the push for battery hybrids, of course. Which is what will happen. There will be some electrification, but some gaps too (including, no doubt, Dawlish / Teignmouth). All over a decade away at least I’d guess.

 

[MatthewRead]

Yes. Those electrification costs explain the push for battery hybrids, of course. Which is what will happen. There will be some electrification, but some gaps too (including, no doubt, Dawlish / Teignmouth). All over a decade away at least I’d guess.

I was once told by another rail enthusiast back in 2011 that electrification in the South West would not be happening within any of our lifetimes only those who were first born in that year would live to see it.

 

[The Planner]

The unsaid thing here with Okehampton (and possibly Bow and North Tawton too) and to an extent unsaid at Tavistock is that additional revenue will be generated by building mucho new houses.

The good folk of Winslow will get a similar surprise soon, and the good folk of all those little halts between Bedford and Bletchley which half the people on here want to close have already had that surprise and the builders have moved in.

In fact I'm wondering how long it will take for someone trying to complete the circle on the business case for final authority on the Aylesbury to Calvert to twig that there is an intact station at Quainton Road and a lot of empty green fields next to it.

It will be around Calvert, as passive provision for a station is in the plans at Steeple Claydon.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I was once told by another rail enthusiast back in 2011 that electrification in the South West would not be happening within any of our lifetimes only those who were first born in that year would live to see it.

They were probably right. If large places in the east and midlands can’t justify then Devon definitely can’t.

It’s just not worth it, especially at its current price.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was once told by another rail enthusiast back in 2011 that electrification in the South West would not be happening within any of our lifetimes only those who were first born in that year would live to see it.

Well that depends what you mean by ‘electrification’. There will be a train running around Devon and Cornwall on electric power only within the next year or two. I hope both you and your friend are around to see it!

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Well that depends what you mean by ‘electrification’. There will be a train running around Devon and Cornwall on electric power only within the next year or two. I hope both you and your friend are around to see it!

How is this going to be achieved? I don’t see how one is going to run on electric power only within the next 10 years at least.