Public's misconceptions of the railway..Driving is easy... funny and aggravating..

[Robsignals]

You've made the assertion, it's up to you to prove you're right not for me to prove you're wrong.

Do you dispute these are facts, the case is already made disprove it if you can.

I've had enough of angry drivers and don't intend to add to this thread.

 

[notadriver]

I apologise for revealing we drive at full speed in zero visibility. Perhaps it was the wrong thing to say. I was only trying to demonstrate our skills; I didn't expect that to be used to strengthen the case for automatic train operations.

 

[A-driver]

Once again I shall remind people of the huge difference between automatic trains and driverless trains. I know of no plans for driverless trains but lots for degrees of automatic trains. Automation has been creeping in in various forms for a while now through various systems and technological advances-and I don't so much mean big things like ATO but more small things like (pickimg one of many examples) couplings-older trains such as 455s take a while to couple as pipes and cables need connecting up. Modern units take seconds in comparison as all of that has been sort of 'automated'. Therefore drivers are diagrammed less time to couple newer units than older ones and can be diagrammed to so more work elsewhere as a result.

The job of a driver is always changing-it's not about to start changing. Older drivers talk about times when the job was very different due to the differences in the technology of yesteryear.

Future signalling systems will see more automation brought in, and I don't see a problem with that, infact I quite welcome some if it-knowing what is ahead, what I'm catching up with rather than turning blind bends towards what was a red signal 5mins ago when I passed the single yellow only to now find it it green and have wasted minutes crawling round etc. It means you can keep better time, have a more comfortable journey by getting a more accurate average speed, be more eco friendly and not have the problem of suddenly thinking 'that single yellow deffinately did flash to green as I went past it didn't it'!

But drivers will still be on the trains - we are not going to see driverless trains on the mainline any time soon, the basic technology is avaliable and has been used around the world (modern french tgvs etc) but no one has seriously considered getting rid of the driver completely despite looking into it-why? No, not because of unions (if the unions object to driverless trains its hardly going to be a problem-go on strike? The trains don't need drivers anyway!) The real reason is that a mix of human and computer is the best solution. There is only so much you can do from a computer control room. Modern traction will give the best idea it can about train faults etc but a trained human eye can make a much safer and better decision based on training and experience. How long would passengers wait on an unattended failed train before detraining themselves miles from the nearest road or station etc.

Automation will progress and take over many tasks involved in making a train stop and go but as drivers keep reminding people on here, driving a train is a tiny part of our job and trains will still need someone with the rules, traction and intimate route knowledge we now have as well as the training and experience needed to deal efficiently with the vast number of events that can happen out there. And so that when something happens that has not been considered in advance and programmed into the computer it can be dealt with by a human.

Being a train driver isn't as black and white as sitting at the front pressing go when the doors are clear and the signal is green and then pressing stop a defined distance ahead of a station.

 

[A-driver]

He is not alone in his view. Steve Allen said much the same on LBC radio this morning. It was prompted by today's Tube strike. He suggested all trains should be run like the DLR.

The difference is that Steve Allen dosnt do it through either sheer ignorance or because he is just bored and trolling. He does it to start a conversation and not only listens to the reasoning and other side if the argument but also takes it on board and gives an intelligent informed reply. LBC are a mostly anti union broadcaster and some of their topics seem ignorant but are designed to spark debate.

 

[SPADTrap]

LBC are a mostly anti union broadcaster and some of their topics seem ignorant but are designed to spark debate.

Huge fan of LBC, but the utter hog wash that James Whale was pushing the other day angered me no end! Talk about shoddy journalism! Thankful that the train operator attempted to set him straight and dissolve his clearly incorrect 'opinions' and loved watching him backtrack saying what was previously 'fact' to 'Well that's what I've been told'.... Annoyed that before the train operator could really set him straight James cut him off!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

He is not alone in his view. Steve Allen said much the same on LBC radio this morning. It was prompted by today's Tube strike. He suggested all trains should be run like the DLR.

Likewise with James Whales' discussion Friday evening, he was totally misinformed and sadly, jumping on the band wagon! It really isn't that simple, and totally missing the fact that the DLR isn't as 'driver-less' as they seemed to be thinking.

How a professional can say something like that and tar ALL drivers with the brush of 'striking, money grabbing, days numbered and out of reality' is beyond me. I would personally feel insulted if a journalist told me that I should 'get another job' because of this...I don't entirely agree with their strike but this branding of "all drivers are conspiring within their cab to 'hold their passengers to ransom'" really has to stop...we're all 'grown up' aren't we?? Because some London Underground staff are striking, FCC/EMT/SWT etc etc drivers should be made redundant....Doesn't that frustrate you? That some radio presenter in an studio can make such a sweeping statement about the job you guys have all worked so hard to achieve, and continue to work professionally and safely every single day you sign on at work?

I think a lot of it comes down to the public's lack of understanding of a train driver's job, because they cannot comprehend it, you're all apparently paid too much, and that's just to start with, you now cannot spend Christmas with your families.

Rant over.

 

[A-driver]

Maybe I'm confusing lbc presenters but is James whale not normally very pro union? Or is that the point you are making? Is James whale the one on after nick Ferrari most mornings?

 

[SPADTrap]

Maybe I'm confusing lbc presenters but is James whale not normally very pro union? Or is that the point you are making? Is James whale the one on after nick Ferrari most mornings?

That's James O'Brien is it not? Whom I'm a very big fan of!

James Whale hosts drive which starts from 1600 I believe! I'm sure it was his show, must have been as I was on my way to work during it and the only reason I did not call in was due to my shift starting!

The whole problem I have with that particular show was the main point James Whale was pushing contained a grossly incorrect Train Operators salary that blew the entire argument out of proportion and gave other listeners the wrong impression, the so called 'facts' about the Train Operators job were incorrect! When someone who does the job tried to correct James on the matter, he simply wibbled around before cutting him off....All I could feel was a total lack of understanding of Train Drivers and a lot of seeing drivers as less than everyone else! Maybe that was just my own perception..but..I'm not sure you'll disagree, actually.

How people who do not understand the job feel that they can hold a valid opinion on such things strikes me as stupid arrogance, really.

 

[A-driver]

That's James O'Brien is it not? Whom I'm a very big fan of!

James Whale hosts drive which starts from 1600 I believe! I'm sure it was his show, must have been as I was on my way to work during it and the only reason I did not call in was due to my shift starting!

The whole problem I have with that particular show was the main point James Whale was pushing contained a grossly incorrect Train Operators salary that blew the entire argument out of proportion and gave other listeners the wrong impression, the so called 'facts' about the Train Operators job were incorrect! When someone who does the job tried to correct James on the matter, he simply wibbled around before cutting him off....All I could feel was a total lack of understanding of Train Drivers and a lot of seeing drivers as less than everyone else! Maybe that was just my own perception..but..I'm not sure you'll disagree, actually.

How people who do not understand the job feel that they can hold a valid opinion on such things strikes me as stupid arrogance, really.

Of course-I know who you mean-getting the James confused. He did the same thing when arguing against Olympic bonuses over the summer-put his point across and cut off 2 train drivers who were very calmly and politely explaining their job to him.

As for the thread troll may I suggest giving him a wide berth now and not feeding him. I have already reported him twice and have no desire to lower myself to his tone anymore. After his latest post it is very obvious it is plain and simple trolling. A real shame really as these forums can be very good for discussions and debates and its a sad how many threads like this get taken so far off topic and then end up being killed off by these trolls.

 

[455driver]

I apologise for revealing we drive at full speed in zero visibility. Perhaps it was the wrong thing to say. I was only trying to demonstrate our skills; I didn't expect that to be used to strengthen the case for automatic train operations.

Maybe we need the bloke walking in front of the train with a red flag?
As you are well aware if we drove to what we could see out the front window we wouldnt stop at 75% of the stations, that is how little he knows.

General opinion-
I dont know why you are all getting uptight about an ill-informed enthusiast that has never driven a train telling us all we are going to be replaced by a computer?
He doesnt know the first thing about our job but thinks he knows it all and wont even listen to a reasoned debate.


As A-driver put about withdrawing from this thread, I now make a point of posting my response and then once the "usual rubbish" starts I leave them to get on with it although I do carry on reading the threads just for the comedy value.
I dont visit or post on here much these days (although I have been on quite a bit lately again) for that very reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I worked in Signal Design,

That says a lot!

What is todays "standard" I cant seem to keep up with the changes, is it axle counters and conventional heads or is it track circuits and LED heads?:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've had enough of angry drivers and don't intend to add to this thread.

Thank the Lord for that, we might have a sensible discussion with proper enthusiasts*!

* I include myself in that category even though I am in the train driver camp in this thread..

 

[HSTEd]

Well I apologise for daring to comment on train driving while not having done it myself.

But if it is considered fine for drivers to run at full line speed in effectively zero visibility, why would a train under completely automatic control through the use of cab signals be any less safe than the driver following trackside signals (which would presumably be the only thing visible thanks to strong illumination)?

If visual detection of obstacles is not considered to be essential on today's railway the technical provision required for unattended train operation (I am not saying that there would be no staff on the train, only that driving would be entirely entrusted to the computer except in slow speed recovery moves) becomes basically the same as provision required for cab signalling throughout the network and then overcoming the entrenched public belief that train drivers are essential to safety.

A driving cab is not really essential to the low speed driving in depots that people believe will never be automated as a staff member could use a hand-held unit to move the train around, controlling it through the MU jumpers or by a specialised port provided on the outside of the vehicle.
He could even stand in an open gangway or behind a glazed front window of the passenger saloon in case operations at greater than walking pace were required.

 

[MattRobinson]

I bet someone will have had exactly the same discussion about looms in the 1700's. But I don't see why there's much of a debate: I don't think that anyone is proposing getting rid of drivers anytime soon. Drivers do a good job, but why is it so hard for everyone on this thread to understand that what's being proposed isn't likely to be implemented for at least a few decades?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[jon0844]

I think it's fair to say that technology will eventually see computers taking over most, if not all, of the duties of a train driver. However, I am also convinced that we'll never see the driver removed from the cab - any more than we'll lose pilots from a plane.

People on the whole won't accept it (although perhaps they're more likely to on a train as they clearly don't appreciate what a driver does when things go wrong - which is why they're paid so much). They all think that if the computer fails on a plane, or something jams up, catches fire etc they need a pilot to take charge - but they probably think that on a train it doesn't matter. Just hit the brakes and stop, job done.

So, that will be a problem to overcome in future years for sure (public perception), but it WILL happen no matter what.

What's more, I think many drivers will like it - and the problem will be remaining alert enough to look out for all the things a computer might miss or misjudge as being a threat or indeed perfectly safe. I'd imagine that this would mean driving manually as much as possible.

My parents recently got a Volvo V40 and it has a ridiculous amount of safety aids and clever technology. It can detect when a driver is losing concentration, has adaptive cruise control to keep a (manually chosen) distance between the vehicle in front, warns when there are vehicles in the blind spot, has a visual and physical warning when a vehicle has stopped/is stopping in front (with automatic braking) - or a pedestrian has stepped out - and even has warnings when vehicles (or cycles or pedestrians) are passing when coming out of a junction. It even warns when a car is coming at you after crossing the centre line, possibly invoking the brakes if you don't take some action.

It has a voluntary speed limiter (with a kick down to enable you to override it - as Volvo clearly knows that there are times where speeding might actually save your life, a warning to any Government that might one day plan compulsory limiters) and a camera to read speed limits and other warning signs. The radar can still keep track of vehicles ahead in fog, although clearly you have to slow down - it just gives you a few seconds of confidence if you suddenly hit a wall of fog.

Even the headlights are fully automatic, including high beam, and it warns if you are about to straddle lanes.

However, despite all of these aids (and I've probably forgotten a few), there's nothing that takes away the actual driving from the person in charge - and my opinion on driverless cars is still the same as it was, despite having been in this car (and imagining what it will be like in another 10 or 20 years from now). The fact is that all of this technology can still only do so much and mistakes can be made, like occasionally misreading a speed limit sign (perhaps because it picked up a sign on an adjacent road, or the map data hasn't been updated since the 70mph stretch has been dropped to 40) so the car suddenly puts on the brakes by mistake.

And when the car (or a train) breaks down, who gets out to change a tyre, top up some fluids or do the diagnostic checks to get things going again? A real person.

 

[A-driver]

I think it's fair to say that technology will eventually see computers taking over most, if not all, of the duties of a train driver. However, I am also convinced that we'll never see the driver removed from the cab - any more than we'll lose pilots from a plane.

People on the whole won't accept it (although perhaps they're more likely to on a train as they clearly don't appreciate what a driver does when things go wrong - which is why they're paid so much). They all think that if the computer fails on a plane, or something jams up, catches fire etc they need a pilot to take charge - but they probably think that on a train it doesn't matter. Just hit the brakes and stop, job done.

So, that will be a problem to overcome in future years for sure (public perception), but it WILL happen no matter what.

What's more, I think many drivers will like it - and the problem will be remaining alert enough to look out for all the things a computer might miss or misjudge as being a threat or indeed perfectly safe. I'd imagine that this would mean driving manually as much as possible.

My parents recently got a Volvo V40 and it has a ridiculous amount of safety aids and clever technology. It can detect when a driver is losing concentration, has adaptive cruise control to keep a (manually chosen) distance between the vehicle in front, warns when there are vehicles in the blind spot, has a visual and physical warning when a vehicle has stopped/is stopping in front (with automatic braking) - or a pedestrian has stepped out - and even has warnings when vehicles (or cycles or pedestrians) are passing when coming out of a junction. It even warns when a car is coming at you after crossing the centre line, possibly invoking the brakes if you don't take some action.

It has a voluntary speed limiter (with a kick down to enable you to override it - as Volvo clearly knows that there are times where speeding might actually save your life, a warning to any Government that might one day plan compulsory limiters) and a camera to read speed limits and other warning signs. The radar can still keep track of vehicles ahead in fog, although clearly you have to slow down - it just gives you a few seconds of confidence if you suddenly hit a wall of fog.

Even the headlights are fully automatic, including high beam, and it warns if you are about to straddle lanes.

However, despite all of these aids (and I've probably forgotten a few), there's nothing that takes away the actual driving from the person in charge - and my opinion on driverless cars is still the same as it was, despite having been in this car (and imagining what it will be like in another 10 or 20 years from now). The fact is that all of this technology can still only do so much and mistakes can be made, like occasionally misreading a speed limit sign (perhaps because it picked up a sign on an adjacent road, or the map data hasn't been updated since the 70mph stretch has been dropped to 40) so the car suddenly puts on the brakes by mistake.

And when the car (or a train) breaks down, who gets out to change a tyre, top up some fluids or do the diagnostic checks to get things going again? A real person.

Very good post. Sums it up really.

 

[jon0844]

While the unions aren't going to make it easy, I do think that in the future the drivers will have to accept that when they have less work to do in normal circumstances, their salary will start to reduce. Yes, the same level of expertise and training will be required, but I still can't see anyone paying the same money when for a lot of the time the train is effectively on autopilot - and improved technology might also make a certain degree of technical knowledge obsolete. A train will be 'fixed' via the computer or, if that fails, be unable to be fixed at the trackside by the driver at all.

Perhaps the new pay grades will only apply to new drivers, protecting the current ones before they naturally retire or leave the job (maybe the way to get unions to accept?), but one way or another I am sure there's nothing to stop it happening.

More trains will become DOO but as society changes (and generally for the worst) I can see there being more demands for some on-board staff, even on services that are already DOO. Thus, many guards or train managers will adopt more of a security/revenue role, with additional training for things like first aid and dealing with emergencies. Again, a skilled job that will likely see the money go down in order to make it possible to recruit a lot more staff.

As we get more and more trains to cope with increased demand, staff costs will continue to be a huge cost and the industry will have to adapt. I think it's fair to say that the staff of today should enjoy things while they last, but not expect it to continue forever.

 

[A-driver]

While the unions aren't going to make it easy, I do think that in the future the drivers will have to accept that when they have less work to do in normal circumstances, their salary will start to reduce. Yes, the same level of expertise and training will be required, but I still can't see anyone paying the same money when for a lot of the time the train is effectively on autopilot - and improved technology might also make a certain degree of technical knowledge obsolete. A train will be 'fixed' via the computer or, if that fails, be unable to be fixed at the trackside by the driver at all.

Perhaps the new pay grades will only apply to new drivers, protecting the current ones before they naturally retire or leave the job (maybe the way to get unions to accept?), but one way or another I am sure there's nothing to stop it happening.

More trains will become DOO but as society changes (and generally for the worst) I can see there being more demands for some on-board staff, even on services that are already DOO. Thus, many guards or train managers will adopt more of a security/revenue role, with additional training for things like first aid and dealing with emergencies. Again, a skilled job that will likely see the money go down in order to make it possible to recruit a lot more staff.

As we get more and more trains to cope with increased demand, staff costs will continue to be a huge cost and the industry will have to adapt. I think it's fair to say that the staff of today should enjoy things while they last, but not expect it to continue forever.

Ok, I don't agree as much with that post-I see what you are getting at but I doubt very much there will ever be an actual pay cut. More likely the rate of pay rises would slow down but do pilots get paid less as technology advances? As I keep saying we are not paid what we are paid for actually driving the train, its for everything else that goes with it.

 

[O L Leigh]

Is this still rumbling on...?

I wouldn't like to suggest that non-drivers don't have the right to enter this discussion. However, it shows from a lot of what is being said that the understanding of systems and issues is low.

For example, ARS is not the dawn of a new age for signalling but simply a tool. It generally works well but, from a driver's perspective, it is weak during times of disruption. Like any automated system it is designed and implemented by humans and, when it makes a mistake, it requires another human to spot it. Likewise, Speed Set is not "cruise control for trains".

I would return once again to the point I raised right back at the beginning about the general level of safety of an ATO service on an open network like the NR network. Everyone else here seems to be focussing entirely on whether or not a computer could do a driver's job, but unfortunately, while it can do at least some tasks at least as well as a human driver, it cannot do them all. Therefore, how do you ensure the safety of a network where trees, cars, trespassers, flooding, snow and heaven only knows what else can and routinely does find it's way onto the tracks? Likewise, given that, like any other railway system, ATO will have to be fail-safe, how will the system cope with degraded situations like axle-counter failure? These are the issues that would concern me more as a driver, and I hope that any responses I get will be rooted firmly in reality and not science-fiction.

Of course it would be ridiculous to say that technology will not advance and provide assistance for the driver. We already have WSP to help with braking and traction under difficult conditions, vastly improved headlights and so on, so it is inevitable that we will see further improvements. However, we are still a very long way away from ATO or anything even remotely like it except under certain very specific conditions where safety can be ensured (e.g. the Thameslink core). But there are tasks that simply cannot be automated, where drivers are called on to make decisions and/or judgement calls that affect the way that trains operate. In addition to making the trains start and stop, drivers are the eyes and ears of the railway and usually the first to spot things like bank slips, flooding and trespassers, etc. The number and complexity of systems required to ensure the same levels of safety and vigilance that drivers provide would be astronomical and almost totally unworkable.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

Ok, I don't agree as much with that post-I see what you are getting at but I doubt very much there will ever be an actual pay cut. More likely the rate of pay rises would slow down but do pilots get paid less as technology advances? As I keep saying we are not paid what we are paid for actually driving the train, its for everything else that goes with it.

You could say the pay rises will simply slow down but I can't see that happening (unions need members and so they'll continue to fight for rises as they do now). Therefore I can see a new grade of driver, with a lower salary to begin with and the usual increases. Existing drivers will naturally fade away, with a risk that some employers might seek to force them off the railway by underhand methods.

The new grade would be for a driver operating an automatic train but with the same (or almost the same) training and skill. However, the grade would reflect the lesser need for these skills to be utilised on a daily basis.

I am not saying that's the right thing to do but I can't see people being paid the same for doing less - just as many pilots now seem to be seeing pay fall. In fact, you might argue that pilots already have an easier job because of the advances on aviation that are yet to make it onto the railway.

And O L Leigh, did you read what I wrote? I said you can't actually get rid of a driver.

 

[Searle]

Not related to the current discussion, but this just showed up on my facebook:

Do not ever get a virgin train, they are all a bunch of complete and utter retards! How hard is it to drive a train, you press forward, backward or stop!

sigh...

 

[O L Leigh]

And O L Leigh, did you read what I wrote? I said you can't actually get rid of a driver.

You may not, but others have certainly suggested it. If my post doesn't talk directly to you then that is fair enough. I offered my thoughts for all who care to read them.

O L Leigh

 

[notadriver]

Not related to the current discussion, but this just showed up on my facebook:



sigh...

I think i know why train drivers aren't at all chatty if there are (some) people who think that.

 

[SPADTrap]

I was talking to a friend of mine about this last night on a service from Harpenden to Brighton and there was a chap sitting opposite who seemed to be listening, after a while he joined in, mentioning that he works for Thales, and he said they were one of the companies contacted for consultation for something similar to ATO on NR lines, he said the outcome was an opinion of "don't fix what isn't broke" in that, why replace the driver when it would cost more to implement and trial than just paying drivers who do a fine job as it is. Seems from his companies point of view (not really sure on their involvement) they will be more involved in adding in cab technology to assist the driver rather than design them out of the cab.

 

[A-driver]

I was talking to a friend of mine about this last night on a service from Harpenden to Brighton and there was a chap sitting opposite who seemed to be listening, after a while he joined in, mentioning that he works for Thales, and he said they were one of the companies contacted for consultation for something similar to ATO on NR lines, he said the outcome was an opinion of "don't fix what isn't broke" in that, why replace the driver when it would cost more to implement and trial than just paying drivers who do a fine job as it is. Seems from his companies point of view (not really sure on their involvement) they will be more involved in adding in cab technology to assist the driver rather than design them out of the cab.

That is certainly the way the rest of. The world is doing it.

 

[SPADTrap]

That is certainly the way the rest of. The world is doing it.

Certainly, and the better way to go! Take a look at LOROL for example, that's a new(ish) thing and I would have thought if it were going to happen it would have done with this, no? Instead, they opted for the 378 with all the fancy stuff to allow for easy DOO, unless I'm mistaken. I'm no expert

 

[tirphil]

I was talking to a friend of mine about this last night on a service from Harpenden to Brighton and there was a chap sitting opposite who seemed to be listening, after a while he joined in, mentioning that he works for Thales, and he said they were one of the companies contacted for consultation for something similar to ATO on NR lines, he said the outcome was an opinion of "don't fix what isn't broke" in that, why replace the driver when it would cost more to implement and trial than just paying drivers who do a fine job as it is. Seems from his companies point of view (not really sure on their involvement) they will be more involved in adding in cab technology to assist the driver rather than design them out of the cab.

And this is the way that ERTMS controlled trains are developing, both here and abroad.

 

[SPADTrap]

And this is the way that ERTMS controlled trains are developing, both here and abroad.

I'll have to look more into ERTMS. I don't know much about it to be honest.

 

[Beveridges]

ERTMS in the UK is only out on one very, very quiet line in Wales. It was a struggle getting it working on that as well. Apparantly drivers who work the line don't like it and preferred lineside signalling

 

[SPADTrap]

ERTMS in the UK is only out on one very, very quiet line in Wales. It was a struggle getting it working on that as well. Apparantly drivers who work the line don't like it and preferred lineside signalling

Please forgive my lack of knowledge, but is this similar to the system used on high speed lines such as the TGV? Or is that something entirely different? Is the Welsh system level 1? Also, how much of the actual driving does this relieve the drivers of?

Rgds,
Sam.

 

[Lanc688]

Please forgive my lack of knowledge, but is this similar to the system used on high speed lines such as the TGV? Or is that something entirely different? Is the Welsh system level 1? Also, how much of the actual driving does this relieve the drivers of?

Rgds,
Sam.

Guys....been having a good read of the thread...certainly interesting stuff and certainly great to see those emotions eminating from some..!

I have no experience of the Rail Industry at all....however I do have an interesting parallel !

Some time ago....we were cleared for 'Auto ILS' landings in our aircraft...this seemed like a good idea until one of the 'bigwigs' decided he would give it a go ! One very expensive engine change later (scraped due to poor landing) and we have not been cleared for it's use since.

Yes of course there was much more to the story, however technology certainly has a long way to go until it can be trusted in total isolation!

Ignore those who seek only to degrade your postion in life, due only to their own agenda....however there will always be those who are determined to push technology to the limit and will only stop once lives have been endangered as a result !

Regards
Lanc

 

[notadriver]

Very wise words Lanc688. Thank you. So to answer the previous post - both are a type of in cab signalling. TVM is for high speed lines only. ERTMS will be the European standard and should eventually replace TVM.

 

[SPADTrap]

Guys....been having a good read of the thread...certainly interesting stuff and certainly great to see those emotions eminating from some..!

I have no experience of the Rail Industry at all....however I do have an interesting parallel !

Some time ago....we were cleared for 'Auto ILS' landings in our aircraft...this seemed like a good idea until one of the 'bigwigs' decided he would give it a go ! One very expensive engine change later (scraped due to poor landing) and we have not been cleared for it's use since.

Yes of course there was much more to the story, however technology certainly has a long way to go until it can be trusted in total isolation!

Ignore those who seek only to degrade your postion in life, due only to their own agenda....however there will always be those who are determined to push technology to the limit and will only stop once lives have been endangered as a result !

Regards
Lanc

Haha sounds like a pretty interesting story! I'd imagine that was a while ago? We have very strict SOPs when we're performing an approach in those conditions, everything we do and say is aimed at monitoring the approach at all times ensuring it is all doing what we want, no excuses for busting minimums or stuff like that can happen!

One of our C90s has some extremely cool equipment that allows for GPS guided glidepath approaches down to minimums, allows us some pretty impressive flexibility when we come into the usually fogged in Swiss airfields. We don't have the ability to autoland but we can use the automatics down to 200ft with RVRs as low as 350m! Even the Airbus' etc which can perform NO DH CATIIIB approaches pilots are still needed of course! There is no reason CATIIIC cannot be performed with the technology in the aircraft, only the fact that these are not limited to RVR so taxiing would be impossible in such conditions but if it came down to it the aircraft could fly the approach, flare and rollout all automatically with the flight crew applying rev thrust and monitoring speedbrakes and braking! Despite this autoland capability we are still needed!

Rgds.