Putting the 185s on a diet: Could they be made light enough for sprinter speeds?

[Philip]

Might be a bit of a pie-in-the-sky idea but, I'd use them for a new third Manchester-Birmingham service, via Crewe. I guess this would depend on capacity at Norton Bridge, Stafford and into New Street, but run them doubled up and it would take a great deal of pressure off the Voyagers on the CC services.

 

[sprinterguy]

Might be a bit of a pie-in-the-sky idea but, I'd use them for a new third Manchester-Birmingham service, via Crewe. I guess this would depend on capacity at Norton Bridge, Stafford and into New Street, but run them doubled up and it would take a great deal of pressure off the Voyagers on the CC services.

The service is a good idea but there'll be a whole load of electric Desiros (350/2 or 360) available soon enough for something like that. The discussion's been had before on here.

 

[Bungle965]

Might be a bit of a pie-in-the-sky idea but, I'd use them for a new third Manchester-Birmingham service, via Crewe. I guess this would depend on capacity at Norton Bridge, Stafford and into New Street, but run them doubled up and it would take a great deal of pressure off the Voyagers on the CC services.

Doubt that would be that popular, adding another route which is entirely under wires with a diesel.
Sam

 

[Bletchleyite]

Might be a bit of a pie-in-the-sky idea but, I'd use them for a new third Manchester-Birmingham service, via Crewe. I guess this would depend on capacity at Norton Bridge, Stafford and into New Street, but run them doubled up and it would take a great deal of pressure off the Voyagers on the CC services.

Why use DMUs for a service under the wires? I'd support such a service, but there are enough spare EMUs to use. 350/2s with the seats swapped to 2+2 would be ideal.

 

[LittleAH]

Six car working of the units between Liverpool and Nottingham would be welcome.

If a split of the Liverpool - Norwich service ever occurs.

Fully expect this to happen soon. Just a question whether TPE or Northern run it. If it is TPE, and in my view it's more than likely given they're technically an intercity operator, then they'd keep more than the 30 185's they are doing post 2020.

 

[Bungle965]

Fully expect this to happen soon. Just a question whether TPE or Northern run it. If it is TPE, and in my view it's more than likely given they're technically an intercity operator, then they'd keep more than the 30 185's they are doing post 2020.

Northern will not be running it.
Sam

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The simple answer is a 185 cannot go on a diet.The heavy weight of the engine required additional bracing of the bodywork thereby pushing up the weight.

Realistically the only thing that could be done with a 185 is add two unpowered trailers but given the units age now that will never be financially feasible. Converting a LHCS MK1 doesn't work these days.

The 185s were built for a specific route and they perform very well on that route. They are best off staying where they are so LIV-NOT, TPE North and South, S&C, Calder valley etc are all reasonable routes. Perhaps also Scottish Highlands routes of heart of Wales could be considered due to the terrain and scenic value.

 

[superkev]

The simple answer is a 185 cannot go on a diet.The heavy weight of the engine required additional bracing of the bodywork thereby pushing up the weight.

Realistically the only thing that could be done with a 185 is add two unpowered trailers but given the units age now that will never be financially feasible. Converting a LHCS MK1 doesn't work these days.

The 185s were built for a specific route and they perform very well on that route. They are best off staying where they are so LIV-NOT, TPE North and South, S&C, Calder valley etc are all reasonable routes. Perhaps also Scottish Highlands routes of heart of Wales could be considered due to the terrain and scenic value.

A few years ago when there was talk of extra coaches I heard a rumour that Siemens had destroyed the jigs so it could happen.
Calder valley or Scottish highlands or even the harrogate line prob a good match.
K

 

[Bletchleyite]

A few years ago when there was talk of extra coaches I heard a rumour that Siemens had destroyed the jigs so it could happen.
Calder valley or Scottish highlands or even the harrogate line prob a good match.

You could probably rebuild a DM vehicle into an M by cutting the cab off and replacing with a gangway end. But 3x23m is quite a useful length for a regional train, so as long as they're paired up when it's busy there is no great issue there.

 

[sprinterguy]

Perhaps also Scottish Highlands routes of heart of Wales could be considered due to the terrain and scenic value.

I think their high axle weights would count against them on such rural routes as those.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think their high axle weights would count against them on such rural routes as those.

There's freight on the Far North so probably not too great an issue there.

 

[sprinterguy]

There's freight on the Far North so probably not too great an issue there.

That's a good point, I'd forgotten about that.

 

[rebmcr]

A few years ago when there was talk of extra coaches I heard a rumour that Siemens had destroyed the jigs so it could happen.
Calder valley or Scottish highlands or even the harrogate line prob a good match.
K

Unfortunately the Department for Transport (in their infinite wisdom...) vetoed that plan.

 

[BMIFlyer]

The 185 bogies could be redesigned, they are heavy. One of the previous MD's did mention that if they could redesign the units to change weight, that is the area they would improve on.

That is pretty much the only way of reducing weight due to the way the body shell is constructed.

 

[route101]

Settle and Carlisle line with 3 trains extending to Glasgow daily using 185s!

 

[Jozhua]

Direct Manchester - Chesterfield - Nottingham (without stopping at Sheffield) would be good! The trip up to Sheffield adds 10 miles to the Liverpool - Norwich route adding a lot of time to the journeys of passengers from Derby/Nottingham!

 

[VT 390]

Direct Manchester - Chesterfield - Nottingham (without stopping at Sheffield) would be good! The trip up to Sheffield adds 10 miles to the Liverpool - Norwich route adding a lot of time to the journeys of passengers from Derby/Nottingham!

I would rather a Manchester to Chesterfield (avoiding Sheffield service) run through to Derby and Leicester as these places don't have any direct Manchester service.

 

[dk1]

I would rather a Manchester to Chesterfield (avoiding Sheffield service) run through to Derby and Leicester as these places don't have any direct Manchester service.

Peak services in the early Regional Railways/Provincial days did just that.

 

[Jozhua]

I would rather a Manchester to Chesterfield (avoiding Sheffield service) run through to Derby and Leicester as these places don't have any direct Manchester service.

Yeah, that would actually make life a lot easier for me! Always been surprised that Derby has no direct Manchester service...

Apparently Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire is locking horns with South Yorks over extra services not stopping at Sheffield?

Wonder how much it would cost to re-open the Matlock-Buxton line as well? Even if it was to become a single-track local stopping service for the majority of the route!

 

[Esker-pades]

There's freight on the Far North so probably not too great an issue there.

But they would be much slower. Both the Kyle and Far North have upgraded MU speeds which 185s wouldn't be able to run to. That includes a lot of slowing down to 20 to cross weak bridges where the current stock (158s) can whack through either at 40-45.

 

[Jozhua]

There's plenty of express routes that the 185's could be used for that are desperately in need of new rolling stock...even some cross country routes come to mind!

Maybe they could be used to replace some of the 2 carriage 170's that do Notts/Birmingham and Notts/Cardiff Central?

 

[Chester1]

Northern will not be running it.
Sam

I hope its TPE using Mark IVs with extra 802s ordered to compensate. If Northern do run it then id like to see them order 8 x 6 coach 195s. They have ordered 25 x 2 coach units so with one extra middle coach ordered at the same time they would have the long term option of a uniform 3 coach fleet. 5/6 coaches is a necessity for the Hope Valley.

The 185s have a niche role and will find work. There is no point in spending money to try (and fail) to turn them into a economic regional DMU. Any ToC that wants that should order 195s. I can't see TPE keeping more than the 29 in the franchise agreement and they may well excerise the option to reduce the fleet down to 15 units. I doubt a pair of 185s compares favourably with a 802 or Mark V set. The extra staffing costs will be high and they are not really intercity trains.

 

[superkev]

Interesting to compare the 125mph class 180 which according to Wikipedia weighs around 50 tonnes a car with an axle load weight of 13.25 tonnes.
Also according to Wikipedia a 185 weighs in around 56t a car with a huge axle weight of 19.5t which dosent add up.
Same engine same transmission so perhaps not Siemens finest.
K

 

[bastien]

Interesting to compare the 125mph class 180 which according to Wikipedia weighs around 25 tonnes a car with an axle load weight of 13.25 tonnes.
Also according to Wikipedia a 185 weighs in around a car with a huge axle weight of 19tonnes.
Same engine same transmission so perhaps not Siemens finest.
K

The 180s are steel, apparently the 185s are aluminium... Yet a 185 coach is heavier. It just doesn't make sense, does it?

 

[superkev]

The 180s are steel, apparently the 185s are aluminium... Yet a 185 coach is heavier. It just doesn't make sense, does it?

I've edited my original post. Perhaps Wikipedia's wrong as 56t ÷ 4 axles dosent equal 19.5t.
K

 

[bastien]

I've edited my original post. Perhaps Wikipedia's wrong as 56t ÷ 4 axles dosent equal 19.5t.
K

That might be fully loaded, it says 'max' on Wikipedia.

 

[BMIFlyer]

The 185 uses the Siemens SF5000 DMU bogie which has a maximum axle load of 18.5t.

The full train weighs in at 168.5t

 

[superkev]

The 185 uses the Siemens SF5000 DMU bogie which has a maximum axle load of 18.5t.

The full train weighs in at 168.5t

168t over 12 axles is 14t per axle not much different to a 180. Can 180s use the higher speed limits.
K

 

[BMIFlyer]

168t over 12 axles is 14t per axle not much different to a 180. Can 180s use the higher speed limits.
K

No they are also restricted, for example between Hull and Selby they cannot do SP speeds.

 

[Meerkat]

Doesn’t Hull to Selby have enough non-Sprinter services that they should be sorting out higher speed limits.....or is it marginal gain for much cash?