Question about "Set Down Only" (late night services)

[tom73]

Stations with a service calling after midnight presumably are still open with staff present. Thinking specifically about Peterborough (00:30) and Doncaster (01:40). If the stations are open and staffed, why can't people catch the train if they wish to?

 

[JonathanH]

Stations with a service calling after midnight presumably are still open with staff present. Thinking specifically about Peterborough (00:30) and Doncaster (01:40). If the stations are open and staffed, why can't people catch the train if they wish to?

They can, but the train may leave early.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Usually it's done to simplify bustitution and diversions.

 

[Swimbar]

They can, but the train may leave early.

No they can't - it's strictly 'set down only'

 

[Bletchleyite]

No they can't - it's strictly 'set down only'

In most cases nobody will stop you, though it won't show on the PIS or may show as something like "Staff train" as the FNW Manchester-Blackpool overnights did at Preston.

I don't know about this specific one.

 

[Starmill]

In most cases nobody will stop you, though it won't show on the PIS or may show as something like "Staff train" as the FNW Manchester-Blackpool overnights did at Preston.

I don't know about this specific one.

"Not in service" "Please do not board" and "Stops to set down only" are all sometimes shown too. Some screens might show the default message too, which might be "Welcome to [Station Name]".

In general there are two key reasons for doing it, both of which have already been identified. One is to simplify road transport in cases where the train schedule is changed, the other is to permit the train to depart early, so that people can be home sooner when there will almost nobody waiting to board anyway.

It's very unlikely that somebody would take exception to you boarding late at night, if you were there in time and you knew where the train was going.

 

[Andyh82]

And the stations might not be ‘open’ if the last advertised passenger train has gone.

 

[High Dyke]

Stations with a service calling after midnight presumably are still open with staff present. Thinking specifically about Peterborough (00:30) and Doncaster (01:40). If the stations are open and staffed, why can't people catch the train if they wish to?

Once had an argument with a Signalling Shift Manager about that. Tried to blame me for delaying the train at the first level crossing out of Newark Northgate... I argued the fact that even though the train was set-down only it had a specific time in the timetable. It wasn't my fault if it chose to run about 15-20 minutes early.

 

[yorkie]

....why can't people catch the train if they wish to?

I'm not sure what the question is; how do you define "can't"?

The answer in many cases is that they can, but of course there is no contractual right to do so.

 

[A Challenge]

Couldn't someone be charged a fare from the previous station that allowed pick ups, like they have done I believe to enforce the set down only at Reading by forcing people to buy tickets to Exeter or Swindon?

 

[Mag_seven]

Couldn't someone be charged a fare from the previous station that allowed pick ups, like they have done I believe to enforce the set down only at Reading by forcing people to buy tickets to Exeter or Swindon?

It's often claimed that this is the case but is it? Has anyone ever been charged as such?

 

[A Challenge]

I'm pretty certain the stop has been missed entirely with another train for passengers boarding at Reading, but I'm not sure about them being charged extra on other occasions, I may have just read one of those claims!

 

[yorkie]

Couldn't someone be charged a fare from the previous station that allowed pick ups, like they have done I believe to enforce the set down only at Reading by forcing people to buy tickets to Exeter or Swindon?

In theory, but I am not aware of any instances reported on this forum or witnessed by forum members where this actually happened.

I'm pretty certain the stop has been missed entirely with another train for passengers boarding at Reading, but I'm not sure about them being charged extra on other occasions, I may have just read one of those claims!

There was a nostalgic post referencing this from many decades ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couldn't someone be charged a fare from the previous station that allowed pick ups, like they have done I believe to enforce the set down only at Reading by forcing people to buy tickets to Exeter or Swindon?

That was a bit different - they dropped the Reading stop and ran a relief from Reading, then actually overcarried the errant passengers, who then had made a journey (albeit not one they intended to make) and so could be charged for it.

Charging the fare when the passengers had not made the journey may be often threatened along the lines of "If I catch you doing that again I'll..." but I doubt it would stand up in Court if the passenger refused to pay it.

On applicable services a Penalty Fare might stand, but I just can't see the argument working in Court for a prosecution. "Look, Your Honour, I was travelling from London to Reading on a train that went from London to Reading using an Any Permitted Route Anytime Day Single ticket, one which allows you to travel on any train between London and Reading on that day, and they are saying I did not pay my fare?"

Perhaps surprisingly I'm near certain there's no specific Byelaw covering this, so the "sanction" is mostly the Reading trick noted above or simply, as would happen at Euston if you tried to board a VT with a Watford Junction ticket, simply being refused access.

 

[yorkie]

That was a bit different - they dropped the Reading stop and ran a relief from Reading, then actually overcarried the errant passengers, who then had made a journey (albeit not one they intended to make) and so could be charged for it.

Charging the fare when the passengers had not made the journey may be often threatened along the lines of "If I catch you doing that again I'll..." but I doubt it would stand up in Court if the passenger refused to pay it.

Yes, it's an opposite scenario.

On a relatively recent occasion when Reading passengers were reportedly overcarried to Swindon, they were not charged and allowed to travel back to Reading for free.

Some people appeared to be extremely upset that GWR allowed this, which was perhaps even more amusing than the original incident.

 

[73128]

Yes, it's an opposite scenario.

On a relatively recent occasion when Reading passengers were reportedly overcarried to Swindon, they were not charged and allowed to travel back to Reading for free.

Some people appeared to be extremely upset that GWR allowed this, which was perhaps even more amusing than the original incident.

That was a bit different - they dropped the Reading stop and ran a relief from Reading, then actually overcarried the errant passengers, who then had made a journey (albeit not one they intended to make) and so could be charged for it.

Charging the fare when the passengers had not made the journey may be often threatened along the lines of "If I catch you doing that again I'll..." but I doubt it would stand up in Court if the passenger refused to pay it.

On applicable services a Penalty Fare might stand, but I just can't see the argument working in Court for a prosecution. "Look, Your Honour, I was travelling from London to Reading on a train that went from London to Reading using an Any Permitted Route Anytime Day Single ticket, one which allows you to travel on any train between London and Reading on that day, and they are saying I did not pay my fare?"

Perhaps surprisingly I'm near certain there's no specific Byelaw covering this, so the "sanction" is mostly the Reading trick noted above or simply, as would happen at Euston if you tried to board a VT with a Watford Junction ticket, simply being refused access.

Or has happened (years ago now) on an evening peak train from Manchester to the north, p.u. only at Bolton, all the people with Bolton tickets after departure when tickets were checked were excessed to Preston, the first advertised set down stop....

 

[Ianno87]

Once had an argument with a Signalling Shift Manager about that. Tried to blame me for delaying the train at the first level crossing out of Newark Northgate... I argued the fact that even though the train was set-down only it had a specific time in the timetable. It wasn't my fault if it chose to run about 15-20 minutes early.

But Working Timetables do show the Set Down Only restriction, which *could* reasonably be interpreted as "train may depart early once TRTS recieved"? No different to departing a freight early from a loop if there's a path.

I do see your logic though...by departing it exactly to WTT time you won't be held responsible for delay minutes should the early running cause a delay somewhere else.

 

[yorkie]

Or has happened (years ago now) on an evening peak train from Manchester to the north, p.u. only at Bolton, all the people with Bolton tickets after departure when tickets were checked were excessed to Preston, the first advertised set down stop....

I can't see that happening in the current era

 

[DavidGrain]

When Wrexham and Shropshire were operating, Banbury was always set down only but I saw many passengers getting on. I suspect Chiltern turned a blind eye to it.

 

[Class195]

The Shipley to Bradford LNER shows up in the monitors on platform three but stipulates **Set Down Only**

I've caught it many times and have never been challenged.

 

[OrangeJuice]

When Wrexham and Shropshire were operating, Banbury was always set down only but I saw many passengers getting on. I suspect Chiltern turned a blind eye to it.

Out of interest in this case surely Wrexham and Shropshire would've made no income from those passengers and all the passengers income would've been passed to Chiltern, therefore it doesn't matter if they turned a blind eye or not

 

[dvboy]

Simon Calder did a video for the Independent website on the handover from Virgin to Avanti and mentioned he had a ticket to Milton Keynes but appeared to alight at Watford Junction before returning to Euston. Perhaps Avanti let him do it for the publicity.

Watford Junction is set down only southbound and pick up only northbound, presumably Virgin got/Avanti get no revenue from London-Watford Junction tickets and/or it's a crowd management measure.

Quite often been on the last train to Wolverhampton out of Euston which is set down only at most stops, and have either departed early from them or hung around until booked time, it varies.

 

[DavidGrain]

Out of interest in this case surely Wrexham and Shropshire would've made no income from those passengers and all the passengers income would've been passed to Chiltern, therefore it doesn't matter if they turned a blind eye or not

Actually W & S was managed by Chiltern before they took 100% ownership so I suspect it was a clause in the Open Access to protect against a future change in the Chiltern franchise

 

[DavidGrain]

Quite often been on the last train to Wolverhampton out of Euston which is set down only at most stops, and have either departed early from them or hung around until booked time, it varies.

In a misspent youth, I could go to London for the evening and get the 0010 from Euston back to Birmingham. I did not notice that it was ever set down only at any station but then as I was on the train that would not necessarily be obvious. I regret the time that they took that service off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In a misspent youth, I could go to London for the evening and get the 0010 from Euston back to Birmingham. I did not notice that it was ever set down only at any station but then as I was on the train that would not necessarily be obvious. I regret the time that they took that service off.

There is still a 2330 - it's only 40 minutes! Not on a Saturday (the main day you'd want a late one for e.g. a theatre trip) though sadly.

 

[mrcheek]

When Wrexham and Shropshire were operating, Banbury was always set down only but I saw many passengers getting on. I suspect Chiltern turned a blind eye to it.

I dont think they ever worried about Banbury, but I recall numerous stories of W&S frogmarching people off the train for trying to board at Wolverhampton

 

[Bletchleyite]

I dont think they ever worried about Banbury, but I recall numerous stories of W&S frogmarching people off the train for trying to board at Wolverhampton

They are, and always were, really hot on it at Watford Jn, though with 1tph it probably doesn't happen a lot now.

 

[DavidGrain]

I dont think they ever worried about Banbury, but I recall numerous stories of W&S frogmarching people off the train for trying to board at Wolverhampton

Yes but Wolverhampton at that time had Virgin train dispatchers who had instructions that they could not let W & S trains pick up in Wolverhampton. Virgin also controlled Birmingham International which is why W & S had to stand there with the doors locked. Virgin were the big bully boys which I suspect is the reason that Arriva Trains Wales were not able to proceed with their plans to run trains from mid-Wales to London.

 

[yorkie]

Can we please stick to the topic Question about "Set Down Only" (late night services), thanks

 

[py_megapixel]

TPE from Scotland to Manchester is set-down-only at Bolton, to discourage commuters from using those services to get into Manchester, and clogging up the train for long-distance passengers. I have no idea what CIS does at Bolton.

I assume that tickets from Bolton to Manchester are therefore invalid on this train, even if you do board it?

However, on the return journey (where Bolton is pick-up only) the onboard PIS announces Bolton! If you were caught with a ticket to Bolton, they would probably find it difficult to argue that you weren't allowed to be using that train, given that the announcements stated that you could. (Don't take my word for that though!)