Question: Number of staff onboard a train

[Qwerty133]

There are generally no hosts booked on a weekend except the two Saturday breakfast trains, there are turns in the links for 'want work' Saturdays and Sundays I believe, to allow overtime to be fairly distributed amongst staff. So occasionally you'll see a Customer Host on a weekend on certain services.

Having unnecessary turns in the roster to allow overtime allocation to be 'fair' is a symptom of a badly managed inefficient way of working, if EMT hosts would like more work at the weekend the company should consider bringing the unreliable standard class catering in house and splitting the weekend shifts between people who do standard class catering in the week and first class hosts. Presumably, it is a similar arrangement that sees certain ticket offices regularly have more staff available than counters to sell from while others are regularly closed during scheduled opening hours.

 

[Gems]

When the new 'Satsuma' trains come into service on the Hull - London line in May, it is going to exasperate LNER's problems. They are recruiting like madmen at the moment. Anyone want a job

 

[route101]

The set for 1E06 stables at Polmadie overnight.

Thats what i thought , unless they get a taxi through.

 

[221129]

Thats what i thought , unless they get a taxi through.

There are no LNER staff based at Glasgow.

 

[WarJan]

How does staffing work on 10 car IETS. GWR has a train manager in the rear and no one in front apart from driver. Cross country has two train managers on 8 car voyager. EMR voyagers one TM in back, What does lner do regarding the front portion.

 

[father_jack]

How does staffing work on 10 car IETS. GWR has a train manager in the rear and no one in front apart from driver. Cross country has two train managers on 8 car voyager. EMR voyagers one TM in back, What does lner do regarding the front portion.

GWR has a "front set lead" FSL customer host in the set that the TM is not in, it can be either set. XC can run as a double set with one TM and nobody else. Dunno about ant other TOC.

 

[221129]

XC can run as a double set with one TM and nobody else.

No they can't. There MUST be a competent person in both sets at all times. That does NOT include the driver.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNR runs 12-car Class 319 formations which are not gangwayed and carry only two staff, driver and guard, there is therefore one unit with no staff.

 

[craigybagel]

LNR runs 12-car Class 319 formations which are not gangwayed and carry only two staff, driver and guard, there is therefore one unit with no staff.

Plenty of non gangwayed units running around in multiple with no staff onboard. But at some TOCs and/or on some stock it is specifically barred.

 

[Hadders]

We've had 3x4 car class 365s on the south ECML with just a driver up front for years.

 

[father_jack]

No they can't. There MUST be a competent person in both sets at all times. That does NOT include the driver.

Not even when managers had to work trains Xmas eve a few years ago ?

 

[Tom Quinne]

Anything goes when that situation happens, the twitter team do a five minute training course and get signed off as guards.

Silverlink, later London Midland ran 12 car Class 321s with the guard in the rear most set from 2003 onwards.

 

[221129]

Not even when managers had to work trains Xmas eve a few years ago ?

Correct. The fact it did happen once doesnt mean it was permitted.

 

[PupCuff]

Anything goes when that situation happens, the twitter team do a five minute training course and get signed off as guards.

Silverlink, later London Midland ran 12 car Class 321s with the guard in the rear most set from 2003 onwards.

It's generally longer than five minutes, though contingency conductors won't need to learn things like tickets because they won't be doing them so that can reduce the length of training needed. You also have to consider that the basic conductor training is set up to cater for people off the street with no railway knowledge, if you're training management who already have a baseline level of experience then you're likely to be able to cover more ground in a shorter length of time. Some reports have suggested at certain TOCs that it's as low as two weeks which sounds on the low side to me, but I would assume that doesn't include traction and routes. At some TOCs contingency conductors have to do the full (usually between nine and thirteen weeks TOC-dependent) course.

 

[LowLevel]

It's generally longer than five minutes, though contingency conductors won't need to learn things like tickets because they won't be doing them so that can reduce the length of training needed. You also have to consider that the basic conductor training is set up to cater for people off the street with no railway knowledge, if you're training management who already have a baseline level of experience then you're likely to be able to cover more ground in a shorter length of time. Some reports have suggested at certain TOCs that it's as low as two weeks which sounds on the low side to me, but I would assume that doesn't include traction and routes. At some TOCs contingency conductors have to do the full (usually between nine and thirteen weeks TOC-dependent) course.

Over the years I've met many contingency guards from various different TOCs. With all due respect what is *meant* to happen with their selection, training and competency management and what occurs on the ground can be quite interesting.

 

[PupCuff]

Over the years I've met many contingency guards from various different TOCs. With all due respect what is *meant* to happen with their selection, training and competency management and what occurs on the ground can be quite interesting.

Well, yes, I'm not one for defending the indefensible. But generally the TOCs where that happens are ones where corners are cut and dodgy practices are allowed to creep in in other areas too. One big problem that we're going to see in the next ten years (and we're starting to see now as an industry) is a lack of suitably experienced people moving into management roles in the first place - think TOCs actively recruiting managers from casual dining restaurants, etc - which obviously brings potential implications on their competence and the level of training that will be required to operate trains.

 

[LowLevel]

Well, yes, I'm not one for defending the indefensible. But generally the TOCs where that happens are ones where corners are cut and dodgy practices are allowed to creep in in other areas too. One big problem that we're going to see in the next ten years (and we're starting to see now as an industry) is a lack of suitably experienced people moving into management roles in the first place - think TOCs actively recruiting managers from casual dining restaurants, etc - which obviously brings potential implications on their competence and the level of training that will be required to operate trains.

Particularly if your contingency guards aren't necessarily managers in the first place and don't even work for railway companies. I've come across everyone from marketing assistants to replacement bus coordinators. I shall say no more

 

[PupCuff]

Particularly if your contingency guards aren't necessarily managers in the first place and don't even work for railway companies. I've come across everyone from marketing assistants to replacement bus coordinators. I shall say no more

Manager, management, leader, to be honest in the rail industry the line defining what is a 'manager', what is 'management', and what isn't can be very much a blur at times. I don't consider myself a manager but many of the frontline crews do; there's plenty of job titles which include manager which don't manage people but do manage things; if the marketing assistant was a conductor before he moved into marketing then it would seem sensible to keep up his competence etc.

 

[stj]

Out of interest how many staff would have been on a typical Inter-City train in BR days with full catering service.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are we counting people without a critical role in the operation of the service (i.e catering, litter collection, revenue protection officers etc)?

 

[Tom Quinne]

Manager, management, leader, to be honest in the rail industry the line defining what is a 'manager', what is 'management', and what isn't can be very much a blur at times. I don't consider myself a manager but many of the frontline crews do; there's plenty of job titles which include manager which don't manage people but do manage things; if the marketing assistant was a conductor before he moved into marketing then it would seem sensible to keep up his competence etc.

Its the reality that SOME people move out of operational roles into back office because their where dangerous or incompetent at the front line role - it’s deeply troubling they should be allowed anywhere near a train, let alone under the stress of industry action.

 

[PupCuff]

Its the reality that SOME people move out of operational roles into back office because their where dangerous or incompetent at the front line role - it’s deeply troubling they should be allowed anywhere near a train, let alone under the stress of industry action.

Aye, shady practices like that probably do happen in some areas of the industry. It isn't the norm though. You'd have to be naive or stupid to sign off someone who'd previously been removed from a role on 'safety' competence grounds as a contingency conductor without some assurance that some programme to develop their competence had been put in place (if it was just that they kept giving people too much change or were grumpy with the customers or whatever then that's perhaps a different story as contingency conductors don't generally do customer service duties or tickets).

 

[WarJan]

So does anyone then actually know what LNER do on the front set of a 10 car?

 

[LowLevel]

So does anyone then actually know what LNER do on the front set of a 10 car?

They have a senior host who isn't a guard but has additional training look after it.

 

[Taunton]

If you want high numbers of staff, look at some US Amtrak long distance trains. There's the loco driver ("Engineer"), the conductor, one or more brakemen, who in reality seem to be assistant ticket collectors, and just follow the conductor around. Then with the service crew there's a "porter" for each individual sleeping car, and some who manage the coaches as well. The diner has maybe 4 or 5 waiters, a steward in charge, two or three cooks in the kitchen, one or two snack bar attendants and a barman. I've also encountered travelling mechanical staff as well, looking after air con, plumbing, etc issues along the way. With all those jobs there's possibly one or two trainees as well - overall upwards of 25 on a train.

 

[Horizon22]

It's generally longer than five minutes, though contingency conductors won't need to learn things like tickets because they won't be doing them so that can reduce the length of training needed. You also have to consider that the basic conductor training is set up to cater for people off the street with no railway knowledge, if you're training management who already have a baseline level of experience then you're likely to be able to cover more ground in a shorter length of time. Some reports have suggested at certain TOCs that it's as low as two weeks which sounds on the low side to me, but I would assume that doesn't include traction and routes. At some TOCs contingency conductors have to do the full (usually between nine and thirteen weeks TOC-dependent) course.

I don't know about guards, but contingency OBSs down at Southern, generally get 2-3 days of training for content including (but not limited to) announcements, emergency scenarios and procedures, customer service, minimumal operational requirements (checking for assisted travel at platforms and ramps) and some bare bones route knowledge.

 

[PupCuff]

I don't know about guards, but contingency OBSs down at Southern, generally get 2-3 days of training for content including (but not limited to) announcements, emergency scenarios and procedures, customer service, minimumal operational requirements (checking for assisted travel at platforms and ramps) and some bare bones route knowledge.

That's probably about right to be honest. Where there isn't a requirement for formal route, traction or rules knowledge that takes away a bulk of the training time, moreso if you knock off tickets too. Obviously the more they know the better, but the training requirements for OBS staff are less than those for a Guard so a reduced contingency training course makes sense. 'How low you go' before you lose any benefit of having a staff member on board at all is one for debate, though perhaps one for a DOO thread rather than this one.

 

[Horizon22]

That's probably about right to be honest. Where there isn't a requirement for formal route, traction or rules knowledge that takes away a bulk of the training time, moreso if you knock off tickets too. Obviously the more they know the better, but the training requirements for OBS staff are less than those for a Guard so a reduced contingency training course makes sense. 'How low you go' before you lose any benefit of having a staff member on board at all is one for debate, though perhaps one for a DOO thread rather than this one.

Probably! I think full OBS training is just less than a month.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Silverlink, later London Midland ran 12 car Class 321s with the guard in the rear most set from 2003 onwards.

12 car 321's on the "Grand Union Northampton Line" from 1989. And remember the very short-lived DOO attempt at the same time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

12 car 321's on the "Grand Union Northampton Line" from 1989. And remember the very short-lived DOO attempt at the same time?

Did they run 12-cars back then? Were they non-stop? South WCML platforms were only extended for 12-car operation in the mid to late 2000s, so far as I'm aware it was all 8-car before that.