Question regarding Class 68 loco noise level

Meerkat

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And electronic seat reservations, and plug sockets, at a lot of lighting, and Wi-fi, and TV Screens / PA stuff, and electronic toilets etc. There’s quite a power draw!
But most of that won’t take power in a siding with no passengers??
 
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mpthomson

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As I've previously said I live right next to the ECML, when they come through at night they're not really much louder than the 185s, but they are audible further away as the sound is so very different to anything else. For those of us next to running lines they're still quieter than an HST and not a lot different to a 60. Can't comment on those living near the yards.
 

DelW

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There's a Marylebone residents campaign group that have been engaging with Chiltern for quite some time, they definitely noticed when 67s were swapped for 68s.
There was a thread discussing it on one of these forums a few years ago, started by one of those residents, who was seeking information to use in their "discussions" with Chiltern. I think it was soon after that that Chiltern began installing gensets in the DVTs partly (AIUI) to provide ETS power, which may have solved the issue.
 

ABB125

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And electronic seat reservations, and plug sockets, at a lot of lighting, and Wi-fi, and TV Screens / PA stuff, and electronic toilets etc. There’s quite a power draw!
I didn't think of TV screens.
Surely the reservation system is simply some tiny LEDs and a circuit board? I would have thought something like a Raspberry Pi would suffice?
Lighting - similar to a Mk 3 coach?
WiFi - a home router typically uses around 20W, so how much would 5 coaches use? I wouldn't have thought there would be more than 2 antennae per coach.
Power sockets - potentially high draw, but not in use in sidings. At terminal stations, surely they could be turned off to reduce draw? (When I was up in Liverpool in the New Year passengers weren't allowed on the Mk 5s until a few minutes before departure, so it wouldn't matter anyway.)
 

ajrm

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If I remember correctly did the class 68s used on the fife circle move to an alternate depot for stabling overnight due to the noise they caused to local residents.
Not sure that’s correct; AFAIK the stabling was at Millerhill when EWS had the contract and DRS moved it to their depot at Motherwell when they got the contract. So although the move coincided with the change of traction that wasn’t the reason for the move.
 

Sleeperwaking

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I didn't think of TV screens.
Surely the reservation system is simply some tiny LEDs and a circuit board? I would have thought something like a Raspberry Pi would suffice?
Lighting - similar to a Mk 3 coach?
WiFi - a home router typically uses around 20W, so how much would 5 coaches use? I wouldn't have thought there would be more than 2 antennae per coach.
Power sockets - potentially high draw, but not in use in sidings. At terminal stations, surely they could be turned off to reduce draw? (When I was up in Liverpool in the New Year passengers weren't allowed on the Mk 5s until a few minutes before departure, so it wouldn't matter anyway.)
It's likely the HVAC system draws more power than on older coaches. At 0500 in winter it'll be working reasonably hard to heat up all the coach interiors. I expect the kitchen / galley equipment will also draw more power than on older coaches, although less need for that in the depot.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You can tell when a 68+Mk5 set is parked for 20 minutes or so during its turnround at Liverpool Lime St.
The loco sound is magnified throughout the station as it echoes round the barrel shaped roof, and it has a penetrating "screechy" element to it which I don't remember with Valentas and such like.
Unwelcome.
 

gingertom

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And electronic seat reservations, and plug sockets, at a lot of lighting, and Wi-fi, and TV Screens / PA stuff, and electronic toilets etc. There’s quite a power draw!
not a lot of power drawn by these "accessories" but the aircon is a different kettle of fish altogether.
 

xotGD

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Personally I don't think the 68s are loud enough. Get that volume cranked up, I say! :E:E
I think we need two threads. One for the moaning minnies to grumble about the noise, the other for cranks to eulogise the thrash!
 

najaB

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They definitely have a throaty, throbbing sound to them. I think I've posted before about the fact that you used to feel rather than hear them from the top of the Waverley Steps when there was one idling at Platform 19/20.
 

mike57

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Some interesting responses two things really from these posts

It's not just me I am fairly deaf so dont hear high frequency sounds well which can distort perception

How can 1 carriage draw 80kW if I have read the posts right. Although there are a lot of small displays and information systems they will draw very little power, sat in a mk5 now and guessing would not expect power for all the information systems to exceed 2kw. Lighting these days is efficient, I've counted 24 x 36w fluorescent and some small led lights, even with losses that's probably no more than 5kw, so 73kw for everything else seems excessive. I have just designed a control room of similar volume and Hvac is 18kW.
 

DGH 1

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Whilst I can sympathise with people disturbed by the class 68 noise level, (personally, I love them and think they're the best sounding diesel loco we've had for a lot of years), I can't help but think if you live next to a railway line, like I do or a station that has been there since before you were born, let a alone living or working there, then you're going to have to accept some noise is going to be part of life . Our house vibrates and rattles when the heavy freight goes past, but it's all part of living next to the line and i accept it.

Who can remember those far of days at Edinburgh Waverley, Newcastle, Darlington or york etc when the Deltics would be there, droning away often two or even three of them at a time under those glorious cavernous roofs, now that was real noise, (and vibration) .

I also think a lot of people nowadays are fine making noise and disturbance when it's them doing it, but soon take offence when it's someone else doing it.
 

Bantamzen

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From what I've read online the depot at Scarborough has shore supply installed. That's no good when the sets need prepping at early hours though.
Not being familiar with depot shore supply, is there a reason why it cannot be used for supplying the stock with power until the loco is ready to take over and move the set? Is it not like the ground power supplied to aircraft when they are at gates?
 

hexagon789

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There was a thread discussing it on one of these forums a few years ago, started by one of those residents, who was seeking information to use in their "discussions" with Chiltern. I think it was soon after that that Chiltern began installing gensets in the DVTs partly (AIUI) to provide ETS power, which may have solved the issue.
I thought the gen sets went in the DVTs while they were still using 67s?
 

37057

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Not being familiar with depot shore supply, is there a reason why it cannot be used for supplying the stock with power until the loco is ready to take over and move the set? Is it not like the ground power supplied to aircraft when they are at gates?
I'm unfamiliar with the Mk5 set up myself, however...

Usually when you prep a train, you do it in the state that it will be operating.

You can't test the DRA if it's on shore and no engines running for example. From what I can tell here, if there's no shore supply for the loco, then I'm guessing there's no compressor running to maintain air, so that's the brake tests out of the question too. It would also be a nightmare to find faults last minute too as that would definitely mean cancellations.
 

najaB

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Bad CAF design strikes again
It's not a bad design, it's a bad specification. Likely it didn't include any limits on noise levels or noise quality.

If I ask you to build a house, specify how many rooms, where the lights go, what materials to use, etc. then I can't really complain if you paint it day-glo pink if I never said what colour it should be.

If noise targets *were* given and it doesn't meet them, than that's another story.
 

Sleeperwaking

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It's not a bad design, it's a bad specification. Likely it didn't include any limits on noise levels or noise quality.

If I ask you to build a house, specify how many rooms, where the lights go, what materials to use, etc. then I can't really complain if you paint it day-glo pink if I never said what colour it should be.

If noise targets *were* given and it doesn't meet them, than that's another story.
CAF didn't make the locomotives, so they wouldn't have been given noise limits for the locomotive. The spec requirement that'd be relevant to the coaches is a limit on power draw, and the people that wrote the spec may not have appreciated that they'd need to limit power below a certain amount to limit the locomotive noise.
 

Llama

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So a set of coaching stock that is ETS rated five times higher than Mk3 stock isn't bad design?

The locos aren't the problem, they're quiet when they aren't being demanded of 400kW ETS supply.
 

The_Train

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I like the 68's noise,, I live very close to the Edinburgh south suburban loop, they go by with the ecs for the Fife circulars. They're fine by me. some mornings I hear a class70 on the approach,,now that has some thrash!!
Yep, I always know when a 70 is approaching and more so than a 68
 

Crossover

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I popped into Scarborough station last weekend whilst visiting the town - I had yet to see a Nova in the station (I missed them on test last year). As soon as I had crossed the road and was walking across the forecourt I knew there was a 68 running in the vicinity. Indeed, there was one on p3 and the loco was on the blocks - the noise was pretty intense and it drowned out the auto announcements pretty much completely. That said, the 185's are not the quietest and I can't remember off hand the effect of them under the shed. I think one of the posters above makes a good point about the noise being quite bassy.

Personally, I love them (more than can be said of the Cheap As ....... stock :D) and I rather enjoyed wandering round the station for 20 mins, until the set departed, taking photos (there was the tagged 'Brutus' set plus 185132 both in and shut down too) to the soundtrack of the Cat :wub:. It does somewhat amuse me though that it is environmentally considerate in some ways (emissions regs) it won't win any awards for its' noise impact!
 

Tony2

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Agreed Derek, I can almost set my watch by the 1955 return ECS to Motherwell. Being quieter by that time in the evening the sound is even more noticeable here than the morning runs. Like you I can tell when a 70 is passing as well, I could hear the Inverness cement empties clearly last night at 2320.

I have to say I think the 68s are the most all round impressive new modern loco we have had for a long time but as this thread states I am also very surprised at the levels of emissions and noise. As a result I've had many enjoyable runs behind them both on the Fife Circle and Chilterns services!

I like the 68's noise,, I live very close to the Edinburgh south suburban loop, they go by with the ecs for the Fife circulars. They're fine by me. some mornings I hear a class70 on the approach,,now that has some thrash!!
 

Meerkat

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So a set of coaching stock that is ETS rated five times higher than Mk3 stock isn't bad design?
The locos aren't the problem, they're quiet when they aren't being demanded of 400kW ETS supply.
In this age of desperately trying to reduce power usage how have they managed to so dramatically do the opposite?
As for the neighbours - they moved next to running lines and sidings. It’s not really reasonable to expect them to have considered a change of use to very noisy locos sitting there for all the small hours. It would be reasonable for them to expect modern equipment to get quieter over the years, not significantly louder.
 

angryskipfan

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We don’t know the actual power consumption of the mk5s. On the class 68 once ets is activated a faster idle is required to supply the necessary ets voltage. Same as other ets diesels.

I doubt very much mk5 day Coach aux loads are much different to any other comparable vehicle with a max of around 30kw and a typical draw of approx 12 kw. Very much depends upon ambient temp and the internal temperature as to how hard hvac is working. Lighting is 50% lower these days with led instead of tubes but pis systems use up the saved lighting power.

The sleepers are a different kettle of fish however!
 

Meerkat

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We don’t know the actual power consumption of the mk5s. On the class 68 once ets is activated a faster idle is required to supply the necessary ets voltage. Same as other ets diesels.

I doubt very much mk5 day Coach aux loads are much different to any other comparable vehicle with a max of around 30kw and a typical draw of approx 12 kw. Very much depends upon ambient temp and the internal temperature as to how hard hvac is working. Lighting is 50% lower these days with led instead of tubes but pis systems use up the saved lighting power.

The sleepers are a different kettle of fish however!
Is the engine idle set , or would reducing the draw make a difference? Maybe have a “stabled” setting where the lights and PIS were off and the HVAC worked to lower/higher temps than once passengers are about to board?
 

hwl

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So a set of coaching stock that is ETS rated five times higher than Mk3 stock isn't bad design?

The locos aren't the problem, they're quiet when they aren't being demanded of 400kW ETS supply.
Is it really 400kW in reality?
The maximum capability of the cables /connectors to the loco on the mk5 sleepers is 1.2MW which is only 75kW max. average for 16coaches at the higher voltage (92s) or 67.5kw max. average for 8coaches at the lower voltage (73s).
Struggling to believe ETS loads in seated TPE coaches are significantly different to EMUs at about 30-40kW max per car.
 

robbeech

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I stayed at the Travelodge in Scarborough on Wednesday night. Whilst it’s a less than 10 minute walk away from the station you could tell when a 68 arrived or left. Not an issue for me but can fully appreciate the nuisance.
 

raetiamann

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Only wish we had some 68s in and around Derbyshire to make a call on it. We're just multiple unit after multiple unit.

One evening a few weeks ago a brace of TPE 68s were seen in the sidings by Hope cement works, but I didn't know until after the event.
 

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