Questions about driving trains.

[CC 72100]

To those who have been doing the job a few years now - what changes have you seen in the job compared to when you started/ over the years, on a superficial level (change of stock etc.) and on a deeper level, in terms of procedures and changes of attitude towards certain things?

I'd also like to say that this is a very good idea of a thread, and thanks to those who have responded so far. This can be a very good experience for all provided that this thread is kept in the right spirit

 

[atlasduff47]

Kneedown, as you will probably gather from my username, I may have been hoping for different answer . That said having been raised on a diet of Duff and Peak still a result!

Grids were probably the most intimidating machine I ever saw up close. It is good to know they were enjoyed by those who drove them too!

 

[RPM]

OK, here's my silly question I'd like to know the answer to.

Do you guys driving get a CD player or radio or whatever in the cab? Can you listen to music as you drive? Or is it forbidden on safety grounds?

Yes, currently forbidden as notadriver says. I have read of trials that were done abroad somewhere to see if music/radio might actually aid driver concentration. I'm not sure whatever came of it.

 

[met331]

im led to believe that Austrailian freight drivers have a cd player in cab that is connected to the signalling system automatically lowering the audio volume when a signal magnet is passed.
The loco can be failed if the cd player is faulty

 

[Temple Meads]

Listening to music while driving a road vehicle is said to help drivers keep alert, and help avoid the possibility of falling asleep at the wheel, so the benefits for drivers in Australia is obvious, whether it would be a positive or a negative development here is I suppose more contentious..

 

[Rich McLean]

Over here it wouldn't work, due to the need to hear the AWS, Vigilence and the GSM-R(or equivalent), especially if there is a job stopper near by, you may not hear the "Stop the Job" broadcasts if you have the music blasting.

Also to fit it to switch off which AWS etc sounds would be too costly

Anyway, would other drivers find this a distraction with music on, while a "emergency broadcast" comes over the GSM-R?

 

[scottishchris]

In a train with diesel-electric transmission, when using the power controller are you using it as a throttle to directly control the engine revs which then supply power to the traction motors or are you controlling the amount of power delivered to the traction motors which then somehow demands a certain amount of throttle from the engine?

 

[notadriver]

I don't sign any diesels so until one of the other drivers who do ill try to answer. it's basically engine rpms. In more modern DMUs I believe the computer controls the power demand and only applies full engine power when the appropriate speed is reached - which is why a turbostar doesn't roar away from a stand like a 156 for example.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

In a train with diesel-electric transmission, when using the power controller are you using it as a throttle to directly control the engine revs which then supply power to the traction motors or are you controlling the amount of power delivered to the traction motors which then somehow demands a certain amount of throttle from the engine?

On a 67 the most visible feedback you get is an amp meter.

 

[notadriver]

To those who have been doing the job a few years now - what changes have you seen in the job compared to when you started/ over the years, on a superficial level (change of stock etc.) and on a deeper level, in terms of procedures and changes of attitude towards certain things?

I'd also like to say that this is a very good idea of a thread, and thanks to those who have responded so far. This can be a very good experience for all provided that this thread is kept in the right spirit

Thanks very much.

Well for me personally there's a lot more emphasis on driver lifestyle and fatigue. When an incident occurs they look at the lifestyle of the driver not just the incident itself. And for where I work opening the doors only after a 3 second pause is advisable to check the train is stopped correctly in the platform dependent on length and the doors are released on the correct side. And now of course it's all about Eco-driving.

So whilst running on time we are told to drive economically and use the coasting boards where appropriate and if the service is running to time. But driving up to line speed to make up time is still encouraged where appropriate and if adhesion/weather conditions allow.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Personally, I don't think music would be a distraction, but as soon as someone had an incident and music was playing, you can bet your bottom dollar, it'd be blamed and removed.

 

[Kneedown]

I don't sign any diesels so until one of the other drivers who do ill try to answer. it's basically engine rpms. In more modern DMUs I believe the computer controls the power demand and only applies full engine power when the appropriate speed is reached - which is why a turbostar doesn't roar away from a stand like a 156 for example.

It is indeed the engine speed that is controlled when the power handle is opened.
On a modern loco such as a Class 60 it is done electronically and the power handle on a 60 is actually a "potentiometer", or "dimmer switch" as my Instructor on them was fond of telling us!
On an older diesel, right up to Class 58, the power handle controls a flow of what is known as "regulating air" which flows to a "Woodward Governor", which regulates a flow of "Control Air" that opens and closes the fuel racks on the engine. The regulating air escaping is the hissing sound that is heard when the power handle is eased down and closed on an older diesel.

Of course, all this is in it's rawest form and there's a lot more bits and bobs and doin's that do different things, but i would have to dig out all my old traction manuals and MP12 paperwork from wherever they are to provide more detail. I think i got regulating air and control air the right way round, i was always getting mixed up between the two even back then!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Kneedown, as you will probably gather from my username, I may have been hoping for different answer . That said having been raised on a diet of Duff and Peak still a result!

Grids were probably the most intimidating machine I ever saw up close. It is good to know they were enjoyed by those who drove them too!

Not intended as a slight against Spoon's, only that out of the 2, from my experience, Peaks had the edge and i count myself fortunate that i had a couple of years working on them before 106 finally went "pop" in 1989. I still remember my last job on it as a Secondman, Sunday relief to Pancras and back and the Driver let me have it all the way. Big smiles!!! A week after that i was off to Toton to fill a Driving vacancy.
That's another big difference between BR and nowadays. Back then most depots had Secondmen or "Drivers Assistants", and it was unofficially acceptable for the Driver to work a train one way, and the Secondman to bring it back to gain experience. Most of us knew how to drive many different types of train before we even went on the Driving, or MP12 course. Apart from the fact there are no Secondmen these days, it would be a big no no, and the only time a trainee is allowed at the controls is under the direct supervision of a Mentor, Instructor or Driver Manager carrying out an assessment.

Grids were awesome machines and i still miss driving them to this day. As i did MP12 at Toton they were my basic traction and i still remember the sweat and confused looks as we worked our way through each and every air, fuel, oil, coolant, hydrostatic and electrical system on them whilst in the classroom, right down to the firing order of all 16 cylinders.
The reward was reaped the first time i opened one up with a 2000ton MGR train behind. I still remember that job too. 56020 in BR blue, Toton - Bentinck Colliery - Ratcliffe Power Sta - Toton with 42 HAA's. Big smiles again!!!

 

[Nym]

In a train with diesel-electric transmission, when using the power controller are you using it as a throttle to directly control the engine revs which then supply power to the traction motors or are you controlling the amount of power delivered to the traction motors which then somehow demands a certain amount of throttle from the engine?

To add to kneedown, modern DEMUs (220, 221, 222) make use of MITRAC or a MITRAC like system to produce a 'demand based throttling system' that takes account of the power that is required by the electric traction motors and governs the generators dependant on that, this is linked to the TBC, but only by means of the TBC demanding traction power, then this upping the required power, hence opening the generator throttles.

This is due to the very different architecture of the 22x DEMUs compared with DE Locomotives. DEMUs use AC Traction motors where ED Locomotives tend to use DC traction motors (until reently). So rather than a DC link directly from the generator / rectified alternator to the traction motors. The 22x series generates AC in alternators for the generators, this is sent down the train either as AC or DC (I've seen both architectures used), retified to DC and then inverted to create a variable frequency and voltage AC drive for the traction motors.

 

[Whistler40145]

A question for long serving Drivers.

How different is your role of a Driver now to when you started in the job?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Also to fit it to switch off which AWS etc sounds would be too costly

I really don't think it would be, to be honest. To do it in the most simple way, you'd simply need a tiny timed circuit-breaker on the CD player that activated whenever AWS or whatever was passed. I'm sure modern trains could do it in a far more sophisticated way at very little extra cost.

 

[edwin_m]

I really don't think it would be, to be honest. To do it in the most simple way, you'd simply need a tiny timed circuit-breaker on the CD player that activated whenever AWS or whatever was passed. I'm sure modern trains could do it in a far more sophisticated way at very little extra cost.

Not difficult in the real world but incredibly complex in the railway where doing that would probably make the CD player count as safety-critical equipment, or need a huge amount of safety argument to demonstrate that it wasn't.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Not difficult in the real world but incredibly complex in the railway where doing that would probably make the CD player count as safety-critical equipment, or need a huge amount of safety argument to demonstrate that it wasn't.

Are CD players particularly unreliable? I'd advise any trains that actually installed them use ones that are easily replaceable (i.e. like old car radios or the ones you get in desktop PCs), so that you wouldn't have to take it out of service for more than overnight if it did happen to break.

 

[edwin_m]

Are CD players particularly unreliable? I'd advise any trains that actually installed them use ones that are easily replaceable (i.e. like old car radios or the ones you get in desktop PCs), so that you wouldn't have to take it out of service for more than overnight if it did happen to break.

It's not that they are unreliable, it's proving that they won't do fail in such a way that they inject a current into the AWS circuit or something.

 

[Lockwood]

A relay?
When the AWS/GSM-R/CSR/NRN/PasCom/whatever activates (load of diodes here to stop interference between equipment) it energises the relay.
When the relay is energised, it turns off the CD player.
Nothing can get from the CD player to the safety critical systems as they are on 2 separate circuits.

Or, even, have it set up so that it will de-energise when something happens and the relay must be energised for the stuff to work.
Then it would fail safe and cut off the music when something goes wrong with the circuitry.

• What do you do to keep yourself alert and concentrating?

Yes, it's a simulator question! As I have no route knowledge, when playing a simulation, I get getting stung by the AWS because I'm not expecting a speed limit advance warning to be in a place - I know where the actual limit is and where signals are. This leads me to cancel the AWS as soon as I hear it and then have a look to see WHY it went off.

The question from this is:

• When you are driving, does cancelling the AWS horn risk becoming an automatic reaction and you ignore or partially ignore the trigger for the activation? (ie buzz, acknowledge, slow down, "Now why did I do that? Oh yeah, 60mph ahead")

 

[W230]

• When you are driving, does cancelling the AWS horn risk becoming an automatic reaction and you ignore or partially ignore the trigger for the activation? (ie buzz, acknowledge, slow down, "Now why did I do that? Oh yeah, 60mph ahead")

It is a risk, yes. A lot is said about running on restrictive aspects (sometimes called chasing yellows ). the biggest risk comes from the driver repeatedly cancelling AWS indications then failing to take in the information they're making you aware of. Last signal aspect etc.

'Disconnected on 375s and not permitted to be used on 376s or 377s on DC due to high power consumption' (so I understand)

A new one on me. We can certainly use speedset as appropriate on the 377/2 & 377/5 on DC south of the river. Not sure if Southern do but there is no bar due to any power consumption issue.

 

[A-driver]

A new one on me. We can certainly use speedset as appropriate on the 377/2 & 377/5 on DC south of the river. Not sure if Southern do but there is no bar due to any power consumption issue.

I didn't know speedset was banned due to power consumption-it was strictly banned on southern whilst I was driving there but as far as I was made aware that was due to reducing issues of speeding/fails to call etc because the driver had set speedset and lost concentration.

On the GN we are allowed to use speedset on 365s although I don't know many who use it-not only does it make the job very boring on long runs but it can be fairly problematic, it only works if the dynamic brake is fully working and considering you still have to keep a close eye on the speedo you may aswell have one hand on the power controller to.

I only use speedset when going through wash plants.

 

[mainframe444]

I drive London Underground trains, so if anyone has any questions regarding LU driving, fire away

So do I, but not in London.....

 

[Spagnoletti]

It is indeed the engine speed that is controlled when the power handle is opened.

On the older diesel electrics it's a combination of engine revs and generator/alternator excitation. For example on a 37 as you open the power handle the engine revs will stay pretty much constant but the load regulator will be increasing the field. As you demand more power the field and engine revs will increase together. Once you're on max revs and field then traction motor field diverts will kick in. Original modernisation plan diesels did this with a mind-bending array of mechanical linkages. Refurbished and modern designs do it all with electronics.

 

[Nym]

On the older diesel electrics it's a combination of engine revs and generator/alternator excitation. For example on a 37 as you open the power handle the engine revs will stay pretty much constant but the load regulator will be increasing the field. As you demand more power the field and engine revs will increase together. Once you're on max revs and field then traction motor field diverts will kick in. Original modernisation plan diesels did this with a mind-bending array of mechanical linkages. Refurbished and modern designs do it all with electronics.

On that subject does anyone want to see a diagram of how a RPA works for controlling DC motors? Heh

 

[Beveridges]

Do you fear that the introduction of ERTMS, giving you constant target speeds (rather than your own judgement) will make the job deathly dull?

ERTMS is certain to make the job a lot more boring. It is already in place on the Cambrian lines in North Wales.

I wonder how long it will take to spread across the network ?

 

[michael769]

Do you notice any differnce in performance between a full (and standing) train and ECS?

 

[notadriver]

So do I, but not in London.....

Isle of Wight?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ERTMS is certain to make the job a lot more boring. It is already in place on the Cambrian lines in North Wales.

I wonder how long it will take to spread across the network ?

I reckon years mate. The first installation will be on the ECML - 2020 they reckon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you notice any differnce in performance between a full (and standing) train and ECS?

Well I find there is a slight difference. Accelerating takes a little longer and the brakes aren't quite as good particularly on a downhill gradient. As a comparison I've found a full coach with luggage very different to an empty one. There's a certain hill on the M2 motorway. An empty coach can top it at 62 mph whereas a fully laden one would be lucky to maintain 50 mph. Another summit in the same area and a 12 car train half empty makes 70 mph whereas the full one was only doing 65 mph.

 

[Gathursty]

Do you receive specific training for driving through tunnels or do you naturally adjust yourself for driving through them? I mean ones of substantial length (like Cowburn and Totley)

 

[A-driver]

Do you receive specific training for driving through tunnels or do you naturally adjust yourself for driving through them? I mean ones of substantial length (like Cowburn and Totley)

How do you mean 'specific training'? Driving through tunnels is the same as driving out of tunnels or if you are referring to darkness then it's the same as driving at night? What aspect of it do you mean that we would be trained for?

 

[Gathursty]

I'm aware for some roles on the railway, training is given in the form of modules. I didn't know whether tunnels were treated any differently but thanks for confirming my assumption about the darkness.