Racist Woman on Croydon tram given community sentence

[bnm]

The original thread detailing this story has long been closed:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=881093

The woman who was seen over 11 million times on youtube hurling racist abuse at fellow passengers has been given a 24 month community sentence. She was also given a mental health treatment order for a separate assault on a police officer.

The sentence has obviously been tempered by the mental health issues.

From the BBC:

Emma West, Croydon tram race rant woman sentenced

A woman who was filmed shouting racist abuse on a London tram in a video watched by 11 million people has been given a community sentence.

Emma West, of New Addington, admitted racially-aggravated disorderly behaviour likely to cause harassment or distress at Croydon Crown Court.

West was filmed shouting racist abuse at passengers travelling on a tram between Croydon and Wimbledon.

She was bound over to keep the peace and handed a 24-month community order.

A judge said West was clearly suffering from mental health problems at the time of the outburst.

She received a mental health treatment order for assaulting a constable in a separate incident.

The court heard she was "reeking of alcohol" when she carried out the verbal attack.

Prosecutor Julius Capon said: "She in essence persecuted a number of passengers on the tram, subjecting them to some disgusting racial abuse."

The things she said included "you're not English", "none of you are English" and "get back to your own countries".

Mr Capon said many of the passengers were "upset" by West's behaviour.

"Some of them described themselves as being disgusted, shocked and horrified," he said.

David Martin-Sperry, defending West, said the defendant's offending was out of character, she was taking anti-depressants and she does not harbour any racist views.

Mr Martin-Sperry said she had unwittingly taken two and a half times the recommended dose and drunk a large glass of wine before launching the tirade.

 

[Antman]

I lived in Croydon for years, her behaviour was quite meek and mild compared to some of what I've seen

 

[Deerfold]

I wonder if they covered her stabbing her partner or if that will be a separate trial.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/emma-west-mum-admits-racist-1933765

 

[bnm]

To add to the above, there is an in depth article from the Croydon Advertiser which was published earlier this month. It goes into greater detail about Emma West's mental health, the reasons for pleading guilty to a lesser charge, and the likely sentence as a consequence of that charge and plea.

I'll not quote the article in full as it is quite large, but it can be read at the following link:

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk...tory-19215366-detail/story.html#axzz2Xoz0VSWs

Emma West 'isn't a racist, she's unwell', says friend

MILLIONS watched her hurl abuse at black and Polish passengers on a crowded Croydon tram and, when she was arrested, her cause was adopted by far right groups such as the National Front.

But is Emma West, the mother-of-two who this week pleaded guilty to a racially aggravated public order offence, a racist?

Not according to her close friend Kerry Finch, who believes the 35-year-old, from New Addington, is an unwell and vulnerable woman struggling to deal with bipolar depression.

...continues

Very nice to see such an in depth and balanced piece of reporting. Most unlike the press.

 

[CC 72100]

I wonder if they covered her stabbing her partner or if that will be a separate trial.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/emma-west-mum-admits-racist-1933765

Some of the top rated comments on that article

 

[bb21]

It is sad to see such a vulnerable woman being exploited by the far right groups. Probably the most sickening thing to come out of the whole episode for me.

 

[TOCDriver]

This country is heading for serious civil unrest in years to come. this is only the tip of the iceburg

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am sure that there are those on this forum with a far deeper grasp of matters medical than I and I take heed of the comments posted upon this thread. However, can the matter of the statement that this woman does not harbour racist sentiments be tempered by the fact that it was an overdose of certain prescription drugs that caused these utterings to be made and I still wonder if it was not also the case that she does in fact hold to racist beliefs and the stated overdose of these same stated drugs led to her losing any inhibitions about causing her utterings to be made.

 

[Antman]

This country is heading for serious civil unrest in years to come. this is only the tip of the iceburg

Sadly I think you're spot on.

Whilst Emma West could have been a bit more diplomatic and her behaviour was inexcuseable there seems to be a lot of people who sympathise with her points.

 

[scotsman]

The joys of the internet, I'm afraid. A mentally ill woman who, in normal circumstances, would have kept her views to herself, vented them in a rather aggressive manner on public transport.

IF this hadn't made it online, the woman would have gone home, realised she'd overdosed and, hopefully, got better.

Sadly, it made it online, it offended a lot more people, and a hell of a lot of nasty people took her side and tried to use her to promote her views - causing more distress for the woman, which isn't exactly involved.

 

[soil]

I am sure that there are those on this forum with a far deeper grasp of matters medical than I and I take heed of the comments posted upon this thread. However, can the matter of the statement that this woman does not harbour racist sentiments be tempered by the fact that it was an overdose of certain prescription drugs that caused these utterings to be made and I still wonder if it was not also the case that she does in fact hold to racist beliefs and the stated overdose of these same stated drugs led to her losing any inhibitions about causing her utterings to be made.

It is not illegal to have racist views.

 

[43021HST]

This country is heading for serious civil unrest in years to come. this is only the tip of the iceburg

I have to disagree with that comment, I don't think much will happen.

But the reason for this rise in racism I think can be attributed to the fact the people are sick of the way this country has been run under this silly neo-liberal experiment for the past god knows how many years. But the problem is a great many people are too narrow minded to realise the real reason for their misfortune and instead the immigrants end up as the scape goats.

People don't realise that many people whom you would call migrants are in fact British, and are the 2nd to 3rd generation of the original wave of immigrants that arrived in the 50s - 70s. There aren't as many immigrants in this country as it may appear.
Anyway if this woman is so mentally ill that she cant stop shouting her gob off, shouldn't she have a carer with her?
I'm sorry but there is no real excuse this woman could make for being this bigoted, she's just a very narrow minded, moronic individual.

 

[deltic1989]

I am sure that there are those on this forum with a far deeper grasp of matters medical than I and I take heed of the comments posted upon this thread. However, can the matter of the statement that this woman does not harbour racist sentiments be tempered by the fact that it was an overdose of certain prescription drugs that caused these utterings to be made and I still wonder if it was not also the case that she does in fact hold to racist beliefs and the stated overdose of these same stated drugs led to her losing any inhibitions about causing her utterings to be made.

It could have been the case that the overdose of anti-depressants and the large glass of wine (which shouldn't really have been taken with the medication. This is clearly stated on the label of many anti-depressants)
caused this lady to say things out loud that she would normally have kept to herself. I think that her solicitors claim of 'no racist views' is tosh, simply because taking anti-depressants doesn't turn you into a biggot. I have in the past taken anti-depressants and never once felt inclined to make racist remarks because I don't hold racist views in the first place. Just my 2 pennies.

It is not illegal to have racist views.

It is if you choose to voice them in a public place.
Section 18 of the Public Order Act 1986

18 Use of words or behaviour or display of written material.(1)A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—
(a)he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b)having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

 

[youngboy]

This country is heading for serious civil unrest in years to come. this is only the tip of the iceburg

I think you're right also, the NW of England is a ticking timebomb likened by many to the pre war Germany in the 1930's.

We have massive problems round here and the Councillors, local MP, and government instead of addressing them choose to keep advertising what a strong multicultural town we are, all living in perfect harmony. Truth is we live in completely separate areas of town, we rarely interact apart from using their shops.
Just to address the original post, my cousin is well known EDL, shes female, shes been in and out of hospital for years with depression/bi polar.
She was pushed over the edge to retaliate because she put a George cross above her door with a message welcoming her son home from Afghanistan, the local asians called the police ''offended'' and the local plod ordered her to remove it on the grounds of racism. She blew a gasket, her lad had done two tours of Iraq, was in a land rover when it was blown over by an IED. This was also his second tour of Afghanistan, he had again been in an explosion, his mate had lost his foot and he dragged him to safety, delivered medical treatment and returned fire for over forty minutes towards the Taliban until the Marines flew in and extracted them from the area. He received the Queens Gallantry medal for his actions and she received medication from her doctor due to him being there.
If the police had let her keep her flag up, and welcome her son home like he deserved she wouldn't now be getting death threats from muslim groups. I'm a great believer in 'you reap what you sow'.

 

[asylumxl]

Muslim groups?

Think you'll find the vast majority of Muslims would have no issues with that. They are obviously extremists and they are a very small minority.

She's now affiliating herself with an equally extreme and bigoted group. Surely she's now no better? Perhaps your cousin should make the differentiation rather than tarnish everyone with the same brush?

 

[Deerfold]

Muslim groups?

Think you'll find the vast majority of Muslims would have no issues with that. They are obviously extremists and they are a very small minority.

She's now affiliating herself with an equally extreme and bigoted group. Surely she's now no better? Perhaps your cousin should make the differentiation rather than tarnish everyone with the same brush?

Indeed. There's been several EDL rallies in my area. They tend to make everyone nervous about going into town, not just those they are protesting against (not that that on its own would be OK).

I've friends who've received abuse when passing their rallies as they look a little "alternative" even though their british roots are as provable as anyone's.

 

[Antman]

The joys of the internet, I'm afraid. A mentally ill woman who, in normal circumstances, would have kept her views to herself, vented them in a rather aggressive manner on public transport.

IF this hadn't made it online, the woman would have gone home, realised she'd overdosed and, hopefully, got better.

Sadly, it made it online, it offended a lot more people, and a hell of a lot of nasty people took her side and tried to use her to promote her views - causing more distress for the woman, which isn't exactly involved.

#

Why are people who have took her side branded as "nasty"?

I'd think that would be more logically applied to those who have sent her death threats and such like?

 

[asylumxl]

It's a two ay street. Hatred goes bother ways and both sides are equally nasty.

 

[Oswyntail]

.....
Why are people who have took her side branded as "nasty"?.....

As I read the post, Scotsman was simply saying that among those people who took her side there were several "nasty" ones. This is undoubtedly true, just as there are several "nasty" parties among those who criticised her. Sadly, those with the intention of fomenting civil disorder have no qualms about using vulnerable people to further their aims.

 

[Antman]

As I read the post, Scotsman was simply saying that among those people who took her side there were several "nasty" ones. This is undoubtedly true, just as there are several "nasty" parties among those who criticised her. Sadly, those with the intention of fomenting civil disorder have no qualms about using vulnerable people to further their aims.

I'm not so sure this apparently 'vulnerable lady' has been used by anybody.

Clearly using such foul and abusive language with young children present is totally unacceptable, whether people agree or disagree with the points she was making is entirely up to each individual.

I was just questioning why those who agree are apparenly "nasty"?

 

[jon0844]

I guess the nasty people are the ones who commented (not here) that something very bad should happen to her.

Personally, I think a short spell in jail might have been a good punishment - and a wake up call to others.

The behaviour was unacceptable. Even if she hadn't been saying the racist stuff, just arguing and swearing was unacceptable in itself - but the latter is not exactly rare. Just take a day off from work and go to your local town centre and see how people talk to each other.

 

[Oswyntail]

....I was just questioning why those who agree are apparenly "nasty"?

No one said that all those who agree or all those who disagree are nasty. Just that there are some nasty people on either side who are exploiting the situation.

 

[Antman]

I guess the nasty people are the ones who commented (not here) that something very bad should happen to her.

Personally, I think a short spell in jail might have been a good punishment - and a wake up call to others.

The behaviour was unacceptable. Even if she hadn't been saying the racist stuff, just arguing and swearing was unacceptable in itself - but the latter is not exactly rare. Just take a day off from work and go to your local town centre and see how people talk to each other.

Effing and blinding is certainly not uncommon, the most anybody is likely to get is an £80 fixed penalty and I think that is what this 'lady' deserves.

 

[jon0844]

If it wasn't for the racist stuff I'd have agreed with that.

 

[bnm]

Personally, I think a short spell in jail might have been a good punishment - and a wake up call to others.

She spent Christmas 2011 on remand. And was again remanded in May 2013 after stabbing her husband and assaulting a police officer. I doubt further incarcerating a mentally ill woman would have been a 'good punishment'.

And lets all remember, none of us have been party to all the criminal proceedings, psychiatric reports or probation service reports.

What we have been party to though are the press reports. The article from the Croydon Advertiser I linked to earlier in the thread is particularly pertinent. The case took an unusually long time to reach sentencing, in part because of legal arguments and in part because of Emma West's mental state. There was even consideration given as to whether she was fit to stand trial. This led to numerous adjournments through 2012. Her defence team applied for a nolle prosequi, but this was successfully argued against by the CPS. The defence had also accused the CPS of an 'abuse of process'. With both sides in the case being deeply entrenched it fell to the trial judge to come up with the compromise of a lesser charge.

At the centre of this all is a mentally ill woman.

I'm not condoning her behaviour, but having some knowledge of mental illness (I've been diagnosed bi-polar) leads to me to have some sympathy for her. I don't share the views she espoused on the tram and I suspect that, when lucid, neither does she. Bi-polar disorder can have many different manifestations, as can the medication used to treat it.

Incidentally, anti-depressants alone are rarely the correct medication to treat bi-polar. I note from the press article that she was taking Citalopram at the time of the incident on the tram. If that was her only prescribed medication then it's unlikely to have been effective in treating her illness. Citalopram and alcohol can lead to a highly agitated state. I know that from personal experience. As the Croydon Advertiser article points out, Emma West could just as easily have 'ranted' at a tram full of pretty people.

 

[Antman]

She spent Christmas 2011 on remand. And was again remanded in May 2013 after stabbing her husband and assaulting a police officer. I doubt further incarcerating a mentally ill woman would have been a 'good punishment'.

And lets all remember, none of us have been party to all the criminal proceedings, psychiatric reports or probation service reports.

What we have been party to though are the press reports. The article from the Croydon Advertiser I linked to earlier in the thread is particularly pertinent. The case took an unusually long time to reach sentencing, in part because of legal arguments and in part because of Emma West's mental state. There was even consideration given as to whether she was fit to stand trial. This led to numerous adjournments through 2012. Her defence team applied for a nolle prosequi, but this was successfully argued against by the CPS. The defence had also accused the CPS of an 'abuse of process'. With both sides in the case being deeply entrenched it fell to the trial judge to come up with the compromise of a lesser charge.

At the centre of this all is a mentally ill woman.

I'm not condoning her behaviour, but having some knowledge of mental illness (I've been diagnosed bi-polar) leads to me to have some sympathy for her. I don't share the views she espoused on the tram and I suspect that, when lucid, neither does she. Bi-polar disorder can have many different manifestations, as can the medication used to treat it.

Incidentally, anti-depressants alone are rarely the correct medication to treat bi-polar. I note from the press article that she was taking Citalopram at the time of the incident on the tram. If that was her only prescribed medication then it's unlikely to have been effective in treating her illness. Citalopram and alcohol can lead to a highly agitated state. I know that from personal experience. As the Croydon Advertiser article points out, Emma West could just as easily have 'ranted' at a tram full of pretty people.

My daughter has also been diagnosed with bi polar but she wouldn't behave like this.

Emma West is perfectly entitled to her opinion but there are ways and means of expressing such opinions and ranting and swearing on a packed tram in front of young children is totallu unacceptable even if similar anti social behaviour in Croydon (and elsewhere) is not exactly unheard of.

 

[bnm]

My daughter has also been diagnosed with bi polar but she wouldn't behave like this.

You did note my point about how the condition and medication effect different people in different ways?

 

[Antman]

You did note my point about how the condition and medication effect different people in different ways?

Yes...........I was just making a general point

 

[bnm]

But society needs its villains to demonise doesn't it? No matter that they may be mentally ill. :roll:

The measure of a society is how it treats its weakest members.

 

[GatwickDepress]

No point getting worked up about it, it's hardly setting fire to an orphanage now. There's no goodies or baddies, just an ill woman and a tramload of innocent passengers who sadly had to see her like that.

I hope no passengers on the tram were too affected by Miss West's outburst, and any treatment or plan thereof during the mental health treatment order actually helps her.

Kind of a sad story really.