RAIB Bulletins do TOC's Read Them? Is Yellow The New Orange

[tsr]

Perhaps that seems OTT, but I can imagine it being quite good on an unlit motorway, when the whole family has to get out.

I'm afraid that is actually a classic example of actually overestimating the safety benefits of high-visibility clothing. Someone driving a vehicle with the headlights on a standard dipped setting on an unlit motorway at 70mph (or, more than likely, faster) will not have very much time at all to react to someone wearing EN471 Class 2* high-visibility clothing, and only slightly more for Class 3 clothing. The retroreflective surfaces are not adequate visual protection for walking or standing on a motorway. There is a very good reason why recovery vehicles and HA patrol vehicles can light themselves up like Christmas trees (not literally!), and why there are VMS signs which are frequently used to warn drivers miles in advance of incidents. Drivers on motorways need a long distance to react to problems, and many don't do so properly at all - the number of times I see drivers passing lane closure signals in the applicable lanes actually infuriates me.

If you have such clothing near you when you break down, then by all means wear it, but rather more important would be exiting the vehicle to the left (where possible) and standing behind the crash barrier, once the hazard lights have been turned on and the handbrake of the vehicle secured.

*Most sleeveless high-visibility vests should comply with EN471 Class 2 - adequate visibility for roads with speeds up to 40mph in good conditions - and these are what most non-professional drivers equip themselves with.

 

[BestWestern]

Drivers on motorways need a long distance to react to problems, and many don't do so properly at all - the number of times I see drivers passing lane closure signals in the applicable lanes actually infuriates me.

I'm not aware of anything which says you must leave a lane as soon as you pass signage advising you that it is closed further up the road. Indeed, if everybody immediately changed lanes at the first indication there would be standstill. I get irritated by those who leave it until they are up against the cones and then force their way over, but I see nothing wrong with using the open stretch of the lane to its full potential

I totally agree though that many, if not most, have incredibly poor reactions to unexpected situations on the motorway.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Maybe they wear it instead of carrying it, in case something happens?

They must have a very low opinion of the learner's ability then!

 

[blacknight]

Stations I pass through, the platform / dispatch staff wear yellow or orange HiVis, depending on the grade they are.

As said, "working" means technical or engineering work. I would argue that snow clearing would come under the heading of cleaning, (which although at times a skilled job) would not usually come under the heading of technical or engineering.

RAIB missed chance with after Seaburn incident to close the loop hole of what is concider to be "working" in relation to platform as if you read bulletin differing TOC's are operating differing standards when it comes to snow clearance of platforms. Whilst work is not overly technical work is being carried out in extreme condition of reduced visibility on surface which is uneven & slippery by nature of weather conditions.
Post incident management are now using 1.25m distance i.e clear platform from beyond 1.25m distance from platfrom edge(para19 of bulletin) to meet Safe System of Work, as beyond that figure P.T.S is not required.
What concerns me is due to fragmentation & sub contracting some cleaning companies employ staff who would not meet railway medical standards & as Seaburn incident showed very little or poor training & supervision of task in hand.

 

[ole man]

Your wrong in saying a platform is not considered on or near the line.
We have to have a SSOW if working on a platform.
Site Warden's if working over 2m from platform edge.
Working on or over yellow line then it changes

 

[Daniel]

With regards to the platform being on or about the line - there are different restrictions depending on how close to the track you are.

As an example - at a London Underground station, during traffic hours with traction current on, with no train in the platform, the only person allowed to work over the yellow line without protection is a cleaner. So no LUL employed staff can work past it, but a contracted cleaner can..

 

[tsr]

I'm not aware of anything which says you must leave a lane as soon as you pass signage advising you that it is closed further up the road. Indeed, if everybody immediately changed lanes at the first indication there would be standstill. I get irritated by those who leave it until they are up against the cones and then force their way over, but I see nothing wrong with using the open stretch of the lane to its full potential

I totally agree though that many, if not most, have incredibly poor reactions to unexpected situations on the motorway.

It is against the law to proceed beyond a red cross indicated on a dot matrix display and/or flashing red lights above any given lane. There should be an indication of a lane closure before this point, after which you should merge in turn.

 

[driver9000]

It is if you are working withing 4'6" from the platform edge

Yes, you're quite right. I think I was having one of those days yesterday where my brain wouldn't quite go into 4th gear

 

[FGW_DID]

From the Rulebook Module G1
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule%20Book%20Modules/G%20-%20Personal%20Safety%20and%20General%20Responsibilities/GERT8000-G1%20Iss%204.pdf

"General safety responsibilities and personal track safety for non-track workers"

On or near the line

You are on or near the line (shown orange in diagram G1.1) if you
are:
• within 3 metres (10 feet) of a line and there is no permanent
fence or structure between you and the line
• on the line itself.
You are not on or near the line if you are on a station platform
unless you are carrying out engineering or technical work within
1.25 metres (4 feet) of the platform edge.
You are not on or near the line if you are crossing the line at a
level crossing.

Seems pretty clear to me!

 

[ole man]

You cannot work within 1.25m on a platform, it then becomes red zone, which in every UK station is prohibited.
Any work that requires you to work within 1.25m would require a line blockage or T3 Possession

 

[blacknight]

Taking Rule Book it could be argued then that all platform dispatch staff should be P.T.S trained on the grounds that:-
A They are non track workers.
B They are doing work of a technical nature.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You cannot work within 1.25m on a platform, it then becomes red zone, which in every UK station is prohibited.
Any work that requires you to work within 1.25m would require a line blockage or T3 Possession

Comes down to wording of a "technical" snow clearing deemed non technical so it is possible to be working within 1.25m of platform edge & be non P.T.S qualified

 

[FGW_DID]

For all the Hi-viz enthusiasts:

The Railway Group Standard Document for Hi-Viv clothing

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_Group_Standards/Traffic%20Operation%20and%20Management/Railway%20Group%20Standards/GORT3279%20Iss%206.pdf

This document also carries the following definitions:

Lineside
Is defined as the area between the boundary fence and the point that is called ‘on or near
the line’, and where someone would be within view of the driver of an approaching train or
movement. A person is not on the lineside if they are on a station platform.

On or near the line
Within 3 metres of the nearest rail of any line, and on the line itself. On a platform, the term
‘on or near the line’ applies only to the part of the platform within 1.25 metres of the platform
edge and only when an engineering or technical activity is taking place.


I think the only quibble we can have is what constitutes "technical".
In the case of the bloke pictured in the OP, I dont think we would class shovelling snow as technical!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Taking Rule Book it could be argued then that all platform dispatch staff should be P.T.S trained on the grounds that:-
A They are non track workers.
B They are doing work of a technical nature.

I wouldn't class Train Dispatching as 'technical'!

(and thats what I do)

 

[ole man]

But shovelling snow less than 1.25m is classed as techincal, you can't have one rule for dispatch staff and one for P-way workers who could be seen as doing the same when out on track

 

[blacknight]

I think the only quibble we can have is what constitutes "technical".
In the case of the bloke pictured in the OP, I dont think we would class shovelling snow as technical!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




I wouldn't class Train Dispatching as 'technical'!(and thats what I do)

You should not under value yourself Who is person in charge when train is on platform at manned station & be prepared to face court of law if things go wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But shovelling snow less than 1.25m is classed as techincal, you can't have one rule for dispatch staff and one for P-way workers who could be seen as doing the same when out on track

Most be a different type of snow on platforms

 

[ole man]

You should not under value yourself Who is person in charge when train is on platform at manned station & be prepared to face court of law if things go wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Most be a different type of snow on platforms

Ha Ha Ha

I meant if P-way are shovelling ballast from the shoulders they would have to go red zone, same rule should apply to fat controllers

 

[FGW_DID]

@ Black Knight

I most definately do not, especially in light of recent developments on MerseyRail!

@ OleMan

The rules do differ
PW worker - on track
Dispatch - not on track

As for 'fat controllers', I'm not fat just undertall for my weight

I think this thread should be renamed:

Is shovelling snow classed as a technical job?

 

[ole man]

But your within 1.25m of a open line therefore same rules should apply

 

[blacknight]

I know that & you know that but TOC's take Rule Book wording "technica"l work as gospel & write SSOW stating snow clearance task must be carried out 1.25m from platform edge

 

[FGW_DID]

Only going on what the rule book states (as per post 39) so I really do think it is down to what peoples definition of 'technical' is.

Perhaps this should be raised this with the rail safety people?

Unless someone out there knows of an actual definition in relation to this issue?

 

[ole man]

Go onto CIRAS and write a report, who does the Shoveller work for and where is it?

 

[blacknight]

Have a look on RAIB web site for Seaburn incident & bulletin 02/2011 they produced they seem happy with present situation, reason I started thread was it were first time I have seen rail staff on platform in yellow Hi Viz.
Not wanting to get anyone a meet the manager interview without Hobnobs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only going on what the rule book states (as per post 39) so I really do think it is down to what peoples definition of 'technical' is.

Perhaps this should be raised this with the rail safety people?

Unless someone out there knows of an actual definition in relation to this issue?

Just had read of ATOC guide lines quite interesting read safety distance is 2m on high speed rail lines where line speed is 100mph

 

[FGW_DID]

Sorry, just to clarify

I meant perhaps the issue of what is classed as technical work should be raised so we get a definitive answer, not to drop the poor bloke in your OP in the mire!

FGW dispatchers Hi-Viz are upper yellow / lower blue

(best image I could find after a quick google)

platform supervisors / team leaders wear orange.

 

[jon0844]

I'd really hope clearing snow isn't classed as a technical job - such that people will be unable to clear platforms and have to get proper teams in, at greater cost, and the end result being that they remain covered in snow and ice for longer with someone then slipping under a train...

I'm pretty sure that when they go out to put down grit, or shovel snow (not sure if this is back on the platform, or on the track) they do at least start at the far end of the platform and work back - facing oncoming trains. I presume this is to move away if a train approaches, or at least be able to give a signal back to a driver that, could, potentially get worried.

 

[ole man]

I've just read the RAIB report, sounds as if each TOC uses different methods of snow clearance.
The ATOC has stated above says a 2m safety net must be used for trains over 100mph, so that is the answer, so the Dispatcher in the picture is either OK or doing his job wrong depending on the line speed there.
And are all TOC asking NWR if they can chuck snow on the track?

 

[Flamingo]

And are all TOC asking NWR if they can chuck snow on the track?

Does God (or deity of your choice) ask Network Rail if He (She) can chuck snow on the track?

 

[ole man]

That's just a silly comment, God's snow is spread evenly, not in a big pile from some cleaning contractor who doesn't really care.
Do cleaners know what points are? if they start to pile snow up then problems will happen

 

[Badger]

Snow that's also been compacted either by people walking on it or by it being shovelled into one place, too.

 

[O L Leigh]

Am I the only one more worried about him dumping snow on the tracks than him not wearing orange?

Not really. Points notwithstanding (even though all ours have point heaters and very few are within station platforms), where's the harm...?

I drove the first train up from Bishops Stortford to Broxbourne on Sunday morning and the first one down via Seven Sisters in the afternoon and there was lots of snow on the railhead. It didn't make a lot of difference if I'm honest. It was a bit more slippery than normal but no worse than when there is light drizzle. Later in the day some people were rolling large snowballs several feet across over the platform edges and onto the tracks. I didn't even feel them as the train sliced through.

Mind you, I did once see a dozy clot sweeping leaves off a platform and onto the track. Needless to say, I was straight onto the phone to the box to get him stopped.

O L Leigh

 

[Flamingo]

That's just a silly comment,

It was meant to be.

No sense of humour some people :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Digressing slightly, I remember a few years ago the line being closed at Didcot due to flooding, when the MOM got there they found a local building site pumping their excess water down the embankment onto the track.

 

[Smudger105e]

My understanding is that within 1.25 meteres of a platform edge you are on or near the track (it's not called on or about any more apparently).

On my many PTS and DP renewal courses, I am constantly told that you can walk on the track on your own with a PTS, but cannot do anything else as this is classified as work.

I'd really hope clearing snow isn't classed as a technical job - such that people will be unable to clear platforms and have to get proper teams in, at greater cost, and the end result being that they remain covered in snow and ice for longer with someone then slipping under a train...

I'm pretty sure that when they go out to put down grit, or shovel snow (not sure if this is back on the platform, or on the track) they do at least start at the far end of the platform and work back - facing oncoming trains. I presume this is to move away if a train approaches, or at least be able to give a signal back to a driver that, could, potentially get worried.

I'm afraid that comments like 'I'm pretty sure' and 'I presume' would hold no water in the case of an accident. How would the individual acknowledge a 'worried' driver, a cheery wave and a smile? This sort of thing is taught on an initial PTS course, which is 2 days of training, at least for my Company it is.