Rail accounts for only 2% of all trips made

[underbank]

We don't need to order more rolling stock. We're going to have many 319s, 321s, 323s,350/2s, 360s, 455s, 458s, and 707s looking for new homes.

Are they going to be converted to diesel or battery?

 

[3141]

I have thought about using the train to go to the airport. But where do you leave your car for a week or 10 days? how much will that cost? Then your return flight is delayed and you are stuck at the airport at 2am with no car and the next train is after 6.

Wouldn't you leave your car where you leave it overnight normally, if you've taken the train to the airport?

I usually go by train to Gatwick or Heathrow. The return plane is mostly on time or only a few minutes late. Not many flights are so timed that being late will mean passengers stuck at the airport at 2.00 am. You give the impression of looking for the worst possible situation. But it's nice to see a post based on the idea that it's planes, not trains, that can't be trusted to keep to time.

 

[yorksrob]

I use the train whenever I can. A ten-minute drive to Shap, park anywhere I like and I'm on the West Coast Main Line. Well, in an alternate universe maybe. In this real one Shap station closed along with most of the other small stations around 50 years. So if I ACTULLY want a train to go anywhere, it's a 15 mile drive to a town where the parking costs the earth, get on a train and see it pass near to my house an hour after I left home. So even though I've got a Senior Citizens railcard with all these wonderful savings, I've never used it in three months and only used the previous one a couple of times. The cost of purchasing and using a brand new and reliable car has increased at a much lower rate than the costs of train tickets so the car is used for almost EVERY journey. And, if there's two of us in the car, it would STILL be a no-brainer even if the WCML was diverted to stop outside my front door!

I reckon the people who use UK trains are largely

a) commuters to big towns where the parking is exorbitantly expensive
b) enthusiasts, and staff using PRIV tickets
c) people who've never learnt to drive or are too incapacitated
d) people whose trip involves consumption of alcohol

I'd like to use the train more, I really would, but it's too expensive and the network is inadequate to make more than a fraction of the potential journeys.

I can tick all four of those boxes.

 

[Ken H]

We don't need to order more rolling stock. We're going to have many 319s, 321s, 323s,350/2s, 360s, 455s, 458s, and 707s looking for new homes.

nowhere electrified for them to run, though....

 

[Ken H]

Wouldn't you leave your car where you leave it overnight normally, if you've taken the train to the airport?

I usually go by train to Gatwick or Heathrow. The return plane is mostly on time or only a few minutes late. Not many flights are so timed that being late will mean passengers stuck at the airport at 2.00 am. You give the impression of looking for the worst possible situation. But it's nice to see a post based on the idea that it's planes, not trains, that can't be trusted to keep to time.

I live a mile from the station, but there are no trains from there to the airport. (I live nearish to Skipton and I am talking about manchester)

So Clitheroe. But where could I leave my car at Clitheroe?
I have just booked a holiday in may. The return trip lands at 2130. Am I really sure I can get back to Clitheroe?
And Clitheroe trains go to Victoria. So change at Bolton or Salford cresc. with luggage. Hmmm.

 

[atraindriver]

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[Kite159]

Likewise having very cheap train tickets for travel between any station between Basingstoke and Salisbury would serve Basingstoke with 100,000 people, Andover with 52,000 and Salisbury with 45,000 as well as the smaller stations.

By having it only on the existing (but extended) Basingstoke stopping services it would likely free up capacity on the faster Salisbury/Exeter/Bristol services.

Likewise a chord between Farnborough Main and Frimley would serve Basingstoke (100,000), Fleet (32,000), Farnborough (58,000), Camberley (38,000) and Ascot (12,000, with onwards connection to Bracknell 118,000) as well as the other smaller stations and nearby settlements (some of which are due to see some significant house building along the route).

It will free up space as passengers will switch to using their car instead of being treated to a slow 3+2 seated journey. There is a reason why the Basingstoke stoppers normally depart Basingstoke lightly loaded is because they take so long to reach London it's quicker to wait for the next fast service.

In the early morning when the stoppers start from Southampton there is a large passenger change at Basingstoke so the folk can reach London faster. Not everybody wants to sample the delights of Hook or Fleet.

 

[3141]

I live a mile from the station, but there are no trains from there to the airport. (I live nearish to Skipton and I am talking about manchester)

So Clitheroe. But where could I leave my car at Clitheroe?
I have just booked a holiday in may. The return trip lands at 2130. Am I really sure I can get back to Clitheroe?
And Clitheroe trains go to Victoria. So change at Bolton or Salford cresc. with luggage. Hmmm.

You could leave the car at home and get a taxi to Clitheroe. I agree that you have potential problems, with the return flight landing at 2130, if it's late. But the majority of flights arrive earlier than that, so many people won't have an issue.

For me, a train to Gatwick means changing either at Clapham Junction, or at both Woking and Guildford. Train to Heathrow means change at Woking to Railair coach, and then again at Heathrow when I want terminal 4 but the coach doesn't call there; or go to Waterloo and travel to Heathrow from there, for which there are several possibilities, all of them offering an interesting experience when carrying luggage.

The point I'm making is that there are many people who could take the train, or perhaps other public transport, to an airport, but they don't. Of course there are others for whom the journey is not practicable. Everyone who has the public transport option makes up their mind which method to choose, and indeed that's the case with many other types of journey that we make, but some people seem to dismiss public transport almost without any consideration.

 

[Ken H]

You could leave the car at home and get a taxi to Clitheroe. ...

37 miles.

 

[atraindriver]

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[Ken H]

37 miles that you're not driving, though. Not that it's such an issue when going to the station, but coming back after the flight and the train back from the airport, surely it's nice to have someone else drive you home?
Treat it as part of the holiday.

2 * 37 mile taxi ride would cost more than the holiday!

 

[underbank]

The point I'm making is that there are many people who could take the train, or perhaps other public transport, to an airport, but they don't. Of course there are others for whom the journey is not practicable. Everyone who has the public transport option makes up their mind which method to choose, and indeed that's the case with many other types of journey that we make, but some people seem to dismiss public transport almost without any consideration.

Even with airport car park charges, it's far cheaper to drive than take the train with taxis. Public transport costs needs to reduce drastically before it becomes competitive for lots of people. That's why some people dismiss public transport.

 

[atraindriver]

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[Ken H]

Even with airport car park charges, it's far cheaper to drive than take the train with taxis. Public transport costs needs to reduce drastically before it becomes competitive for lots of people. That's why some people dismiss public transport.

must admit I do live somewhere remote that just happens to have a train station. Just the trains go the wrong way. I dont think I am typical at all.

My parents, in their 80's, used to use a taxi to leeds station (5 miles), then train to manc Airport. But they never learned to drive. Big difference between 5 miles and 37 in a taxi. They could have used the bus less than 100 yards from their house but that would have been difficult with luggage - they were a little infirm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We don't need to order more rolling stock. We're going to have many 319s, 321s, 323s,350/2s, 360s, 455s, 458s, and 707s looking for new homes.

The trouble is that the vast majority of routes that have an issue are not electrified. There are tons of spare EMUs, but no spare DMUs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2 * 37 mile taxi ride would cost more than the holiday!

What doesn't help is that in many areas the taxi companies compete heavily to do very cheap airport runs (e.g. around £30 for MK to Luton), but for that same length of journey to/from a railway station would charge far, far more because the competition isn't there.

 

[Killingworth]

I have thought about using the train to go to the airport. But where do you leave your car for a week or 10 days? how much will that cost? Then your return flight is delayed and you are stuck at the airport at 2am with no car and the next train is after 6.

In the case of my local station you might get into the free station car park before 7.45. That is a local bone of contention when it's clear some cars have been there for several days and one was noted for 3 weeks. That was parked out of a bay which rather drew attention, but nothing was done. After 7.45 they park on the nearby residential roads which really hacks off those who can't park outside their own front doors for many days. There's little doubt this is mostly displaced Manchester Airport parking.

However the issue of station parking is one for another thread. Just to say that those travelling long distances from say Sheffield will pay over £15 for a day going to London. Those paying less than £5 for a local ticket to Sheffield would be unhappy to pay even £2 to park. They've tried that at Dronfield. Almost empty car park. Lots more cars on surrounding roads.

 

[underbank]

What doesn't help is that in many areas the taxi companies compete heavily to do very cheap airport runs (e.g. around £30 for MK to Luton), but for that same length of journey to/from a railway station would charge far, far more because the competition isn't there.

The airport runs usually try to arrange for a pickup from the airport so both journeys are paid for. I have a relative who is a "one man band" airport taxi firm and he is in constant contact with other local airport taxi drivers to pick up eachother's fares if they're taking one of their own to the airport, so that they don't have to come back empty. It often means he has to sit and wait at the airport for a few hours, but they prefer that to coming back empty for no revenue. For less popular runs, i.e. home to a railway station, there may be no scope for a return pickup, hence why they can't discount it.

 

[MarkyT]

The airport runs usually try to arrange for a pickup from the airport so both journeys are paid for. I have a relative who is a "one man band" airport taxi firm and he is in constant contact with other local airport taxi drivers to pick up eachother's fares if they're taking one of their own to the airport, so that they don't have to come back empty. It often means he has to sit and wait at the airport for a few hours, but they prefer that to coming back empty for no revenue. For less popular runs, i.e. home to a railway station, there may be no scope for a return pickup, hence why they can't discount it.

Another issue is who is allowed to pick up at station ranks. Drivers or their employers usually have pay an extra fee to be able to use the official rank so usually only a proportion of a typical town's Hackneys will be allowed to do so. Private hire minicabs will clearly not be able to rank up either although often in an urban area such operators set up an office on a public highway close to a station from which rail customers may be able to order a cheaper ride. Mobile phones and apps change matters clearly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However the issue of station parking is one for another thread. Just to say that those travelling long distances from say Sheffield will pay over £15 for a day going to London. Those paying less than £5 for a local ticket to Sheffield would be unhappy to pay even £2 to park. They've tried that at Dronfield. Almost empty car park. Lots more cars on surrounding roads.

Nobody likes paying to park, but it's particularly raw if the charge is by a company who is already charging you. A supermarket charging to park an not refunding it against a purchase would not last very long.

 

[sheff1]

What doesn't help is that in many areas the taxi companies compete heavily to do very cheap airport runs

Well it certainly helps the traveller. A party of 4 doing a round trip to the airport will pay little more in a taxi than going by train, less if they need to get a taxi to and from the station. And, of course, if the plane is late back the taxi will still be there whereas the last train may well have left.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well it certainly helps the traveller. A party of 4 doing a round trip to the airport will pay little more in a taxi than going by train, less if they need to get a taxi to and from the station. And, of course, if the plane is late back the taxi will still be there whereas the last train may well have left.

My point was more that it doesn't help that rail passengers are not afforded the courtesy of the same low-cost long-distance fare.

 

[Class 170101]

Rumour central: Management grapevine in my bit of the world is saying that noises are emanating from EMT about trying to get hold of Anglia 170s as soon as they're released, as a short-term fix for 153s not being economically DDA-able and permitting a cascade (170s to drop into current 158 circuits, allowing some 158s to drop down to current 156 circuits and 156 to current 153 circuits, the whole thing allowing an increase in overall capacity as well as solving the DDA problem).

Two big caveats are that whilst it's management grapevine, it's still grapevine (so quite likely to be complete horse manure) and also, even if true, Anglia's well known issues mean that they probably won't be able to release their 170s any time soon.

Err hasn't it been discussed elsewhere that the Class 170s are going to Wales?

 

[The Ham]

It will free up space as passengers will switch to using their car instead of being treated to a slow 3+2 seated journey. There is a reason why the Basingstoke stoppers normally depart Basingstoke lightly loaded is because they take so long to reach London it's quicker to wait for the next fast service.

In the early morning when the stoppers start from Southampton there is a large passenger change at Basingstoke so the folk can reach London faster. Not everybody wants to sample the delights of Hook or Fleet.

I think that you miss understood what I was suggesting.

There would still be the same trains west of Basingstoke (although off peak there's the potential that for some of the minor stations they may miss some of the more minor stations, although that needn't be the case) however there would be the extra services so instead of 1tph for the minor stations 3tph (or 2.5tph if they skip stops) as such the frequency of services would be much higher.

Currently to get between the stations either side of Basingstoke isn't easy, that includes Hook, Winchfield, Fleet & Farnborough (circa 6 million combined passenger entry/exits, more than Basingstoke) to the East and Overton, Whitchurch, Andover, Grateley & Salisbury (circa 4 million passengers combined).

To get to 150 passengers per train you'd need something like 850,000 passengers a year. That's <10% .

If you ran the two suggested services together (rather than extending the Basingstoke Stoppers) you'd likely see much more than a 10% increase in passengers by increasing the services by between 50% (Farnborough 6tph) and potentially 200% (but at least 150%) from some of the smaller stations west of Basingstoke (2.5-3tph) with places like Hook (0.8 million) and Andover (1.2 million) doubling to 4tph and Fleet having 5tph. It would also allow you to run a shorter train length (say 4 or 5 coaches rather than 8 costs) which could reduce some of your costs, although it would put more trains through Basingstoke.

However it would also provide new connections, which would also significantly increase passenger numbers. Meaning that it could probably cover the circa £100-150 million to build the junction between Farnborough and Frimley with between 15 and 20% increase in passenger numbers.

It would also allow the potential for new stations (Portland, Oakley, Fleet West, Southwold, Watchmore Park) which could further increase passenger numbers. Some of those stations could serve large employment or residential areas which are otherwise poorly served by public transport.

One final point, although Hart (served by the 3 stations between Farnborough and Basingstoke) is seen as a commuter hotspot the census data data only about 10% of people work the correct distance from home to work in London, meaning that there's a lot of local rail travel. This can be seen at Farnborough where in the morning peak about the same number of people get off the train as get on, along with a significant number of people getting off at Woking.

 

[atraindriver]

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[Killingworth]

That would be why the grapevine (even the management variant) should always be taken with a bucket of salt.

It must be a cut throat business as all these fleet managers monitor every possible source of information to confirm which units may suddenly become available. Dog eat dog. I'll trade you a pair of 156s for 4 153s if you let me have a couple of 170s in 6 months time ! 769s? Nah, I'd rather take an HST.

 

[quantinghome]

But in the North we actually don't. Platforms are, for historical reasons, far longer than they need to be in most areas. Significant improvement could be brought on by simply ordering rolling stock.

I disagree. Yes, you could probably find some routes where platform lengthening isn't required, and some stations have had new platforms built without too much difficulty (e.g. York).

However, the new rolling stock orders for Northern have had to be accompanied by platform lengthening programmes, or use of selective door opening. This generally affects the most congested commuter routes.

Also, major stations need new platforms which are really quite expensive to provide due to layout constraints. Leeds is currently embarking on a new platform to provide capacity for longer trains (as they can't double- or triple-up in the platforms) and that requires major changes to long term parking provision. Doncaster had a new platform built which required a rather circuitous connection to the existing station. And let's not even talk about Manchester Piccadilly...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, major stations need new platforms which are really quite expensive to provide due to layout constraints. Leeds is currently embarking on a new platform to provide capacity for longer trains (as they can't double- or triple-up in the platforms) and that requires major changes to long term parking provision. Doncaster had a new platform built which required a rather circuitous connection to the existing station. And let's not even talk about Manchester Piccadilly...

Longer but fewer trains (by way of portion working through the core) would solve the primary problem at Manc Picc, not accentuate it. There is a bit of "stacking up" goes on in the very low numbered platforms, but now the Ordsall Chord is in use relatively less of it. "Stacking up" in 13/14 is not done on a planned basis, only when circumstances dictate, and arguably it actually wastes more time than just keeping the second train outside until the platform clears.

 

[quantinghome]

Longer but fewer trains (by way of portion working through the core) would solve the primary problem at Manc Picc, not accentuate it. There is a bit of "stacking up" goes on in the very low numbered platforms, but now the Ordsall Chord is in use relatively less of it. "Stacking up" in 13/14 is not done on a planned basis, only when circumstances dictate, and arguably it actually wastes more time than just keeping the second train outside until the platform clears.

I was thinking more about the need for P15/16. Presumably your suggestion obviates the need for this. But which services would you join through the core, where, and how much would this allow capacity to be increased?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was thinking more about the need for P15/16. Presumably your suggestion obviates the need for this. But which services would you join through the core, where, and how much would this allow capacity to be increased?

Sadly Northern have made a poor choice of new rolling stock that can't talk to each other and Windermere hasn't been wired, otherwise the obvious one would be to go half-hourly clockface on the Blackpools via Bolton and run the Barrow/Windermere with one of them rather than via Wigan (have that as a separate EMU to/from Vic). But an option might be to run the *Southport* with the Barrow/Windermere from Bolton.

I'd have to have a detailed look at timetables for any more than that. But even without that, simply doubling the length of all existing services through 13-14 would speed up operations and make them more robust as there would be far less queueing to board.