Rail connections should cater for early airline flights

[Howardh]

Airport staff need to get there too! Major airports should have virtually 24 hr bus services to local towns, rail needs time for maintenance so 24hr rail services would be problematic.

For me Bolton to Manchester airport for 6-7am can just about be done, 4am early bus to Manchester then the 43 to the airport, but I usually stay at the cheap Britannia close to the airport.

 

[james_the_xv]

When I was a student I tended to catch a late train and stay over in the airport if I had an early/morning flight to save £££. Although appreciate not always a realistic option for some people.

Is it worth looking at a hotel away from the airport but still easy to get to from said airport? I'm off away from City Airport in November and have booked a hotel in Milton Keynes the night before dirt cheap (£29 for the night). I'd rather travel from MK (first train to Euston 0330) to Euston than Coventry, given I'd be relying on the first Avanti from cov to get me to Euston OT to make underground/dlr connections to make it in time .

 

[londonbridge]

Depends how early your flight is, plus whether you can check in online or not and how much baggage you have.

My trip to Austria which I’ve talked about in other threads was only a two day job, out yesterday morning and back today, so I just had a small overnight bag as hand luggage, plus I was able to check in online with Austrian Airlines. Left Carshalton on an SL7 at 6:15, got to Heathrow at 7:40, straight through security with no issues and plenty of time to spare. To be fair my flight was 9:00am, if we’re talking departure times two or three hours earlier then it’s obviously a completely different kettle of fish.

 

[Cloud Strife]

That’s fair enough if you don’t mind but not for me. I don’t think I liked sleeping other than in a bed when I was a teenager or in my twenties let alone now lol. I just wouldn’t go if that was my only option.

I'll regret it about 1am on Sunday morning! Stansted would be perfectly fine if they didn't insist on forcing everyone into a tiny area overnight.

 

[Class 170101]

Stansted suffers particularly badly from this, as the last train is at 23:25 and the first train is at 03:40 from Liverpool Street. The 03:40 only arrives at 04:30, which is too late for a large chunk of the 05:30-06:30 departures. It wouldn't be so bad in Stansted if it was possible to go airside from midnight onwards, but in their wisdom, the terminal is effectively closed down (minus a tiny part at arrivals) between around 23:30 to 02:00 or so.

I don't see why they couldn't at least run an hourly service to Stansted throughout the night. Luton has an hourly service, so there's really no excuse for Stansted not having the same.

The biggest reason both Luton and Gatwick can operate through the night is due to four track operations in which two are open and two are closed overnight, Gatwick also has a choice of routes between Blackfriars and East Croydon.

Stansted only has a choice of routes between Liverpool Street and Cheshunt and no bi-directional working north of Cheshunt to Stansted Airport so you will not get trains there thropugh the night unless NR got the access back in some other way - see perhaps the example of Manchester Airport between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport but there is no guarantee NR would be prepared to operate in this way - as has been previously highlighted Section 4 access is very difficult to get NR to give up.

Stansted has around 15-20 departures between 05:30 and 06:30, and it would be very ill-advised to arrive there after 03:30 for a 05:30 flight if you have baggage to check in.

Not sure its quite that bad, 03:30 for 05:30 should be alright.

 

[Watershed]

When I was a student I tended to catch a late train and stay over in the airport if I had an early/morning flight to save £££. Although appreciate not always a realistic option for some people.

Is it worth looking at a hotel away from the airport but still easy to get to from said airport? I'm off away from City Airport in November and have booked a hotel in Milton Keynes the night before dirt cheap (£29 for the night). I'd rather travel from MK (first train to Euston 0330) to Euston than Coventry, given I'd be relying on the first Avanti from cov to get me to Euston OT to make underground/dlr connections to make it in time .

Hotels in Manchester city centre are consistently a lot cheaper than those near the Airport. It's the same story for quite a lot of other airports.

Unfortunately, the train often can't be relied upon to get between airports and their nearby cities at the extremes of the day, but as long as it's not too far, a taxi won't cost the earth.

At the end of the day you just have to price in the cost of a hotel and taxi into any early or late flights. It's often a false economy to book a cheaper flight if it means a hotel is necessary.

 

[JonathanH]

Airport staff need to get there too! Major airports should have virtually 24 hr bus services to local towns, rail needs time for maintenance so 24hr rail services would be problematic.

They tend to live in locations where they can get to their workplace. The major airports generally have 24 hour buses to the locations that they need to.

 

[philosopher]

I know a lot of people have no choice but the thought of getting to an airport at 04:00 in the morning would fill me with dread. Bad enough doing it for work let alone a so called holiday.

I have never really understood the popularity of the 6am flights. Sure you have a whole day at your destination, but you end up being absolutely knackered when you get there. This plus the lack of trains at that time means I avoid them. If you have to get a taxi or stay overnight at hotel any benefit from the lower fares of these flights is reduced or eliminated.

Get a flight departing at 10am and you have usually have no trouble getting to the airport on public transport. I am too wary of flights arriving after 9pm due to the risk of their being no trains when you arrive. While 9pm is usually fine for getting trains back to London, a delay of more than 90 minutes and you may find you have missed the last train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They tend to live in locations where they can get to their workplace. The major airports generally have 24 hour buses to the locations that they need to.

And Stansted indeed does - to Harlow, and bizarrely Southend, also close to it to Colchester. Surprised Stevenage appears not to feature though.

 

[james_the_xv]

Unfortunately, the train often can't be relied upon to get between airports and their nearby cities at the extremes of the day, but as long as it's not too far, a taxi won't cost the earth.

At the end of the day you just have to price in the cost of a hotel and taxi into any early or late flights. It's often a false economy to book a cheaper flight if it means a hotel is necessary.

I agree, although fwiw I personally would rather spend about the same amount but get a cheaper flight, even if it meant hotel/cab fare made up the difference (local economies and all that, although if a more resonably timed + priced flight is available I'm obviously going to take it)

 

[renegademaster]

Someone needs a trip to a Northern airport (Manchester is a good example) or Southern low cost airport like Stanstead/Gatwick/Luton to see why people arrive that early. The large low cost airports often have terrible security queues and they won't hold your flights for you. Add to this the acres of duty free you have to walk through after security to the gate, plus the manual check in at some airlines and you'll understand why 3 hours is a good idea.

I always found Gatwick quite efficient to be fair

 

[JonathanH]

Surprised Stevenage appears not to feature though.

Not really. There is an inverse relationship between distance and wage when it comes to commuting.

While pilots are well paid, it is likely to be the case that many other airport workers aren't. Moreover, they need to get to work for early and late shifts and hardly want to be doing a lot of travelling.

Taking Gatwick as an example, while there is a night bus from Redhill, it has nothing like the staff passenger numbers that come from Crawley to the airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really. There is an inverse relationship between distance and wage when it comes to commuting.

True, but Stevenage isn't much further away (as the crow flies) than Harlow and is a relatively cheap place to live, which is important for low paid airport workers.

 

[Class 170101]

And Stansted indeed does - to Harlow, and bizarrely Southend, also close to it to Colchester. Surprised Stevenage appears not to feature though.

Basildon even more bizzarely. The Colchester one is a recent addition but doesn't cover the late flights.

 

[Horizon22]

04:42 from Paddington to Heathrow (Elizabeth line) should get there you by 0515, and that is theoretically enough time to get some of the earliest flights from Heathrow giving the overnight curfew. Heathrow Express runs quite early too (first train before 05:15). There’s some night buses around too, often very busy with airport workers. The 0142 and 0334 GWR services from Paddington both stop at Hayes, which could then be a bus to Heathrow.

You’d have to take into account infrastructure works which are regularly done overnight as the least impactful on passengers.

If it’s a really really early departure, the pay off for the cheap flights is having to stay in a hotel the night before. I’ve always thought this is actually more expensive that a normal hours flight so it’s a false economy.

And Stansted indeed does - to Harlow, and bizarrely Southend, also close to it to Colchester. Surprised Stevenage appears not to feature though.

Also Chelmsford / Raleigh / Southend have a night bus service (its pretty much 24/7).

 

[BluePenguin]

Unfortunately, you struggle with great difficulty. I once flew back from Turkey to Luton and slept on the floor from 23:30 to 08:00 before taking the Thameslink down to St Pancras and taking the Eurostar to Amsterdam to save money on hotels

 

[Llandudno]

Who in their right mind would risk catching a Northern or TPE train to Manchester Airport for an early morning flight?

There is every chance your train will be cancelled and you could well miss your flight!

 

[Cloud Strife]

I have never really understood the popularity of the 6am flights. Sure you have a whole day at your destination, but you end up being absolutely knackered when you get there. This plus the lack of trains at that time means I avoid them.

It's worth pointing out that not every destination has better timed flights. If I want to fly to London, there's normally only a 6am departure or a 19:00ish departure. Likewise, if I want to go to Malaga, I've got a reasonable 16:00 departure, but the return is at 06:45. It's the same story from London: a lot of destinations are only served early in the morning or late at night, as the LCCs prefer to focus midday flights on higher yielding destinations.

For me, the most dreadful flights are the ones which arrive in the middle of the night at the destination. Wizzair has a cheap Luton-Larnaca flight that is regularly available for 10-20 quid, but you depart at 20:30 and arrive at 03:10. Most of the Larnaca flights are really poorly timed from London though.

Not sure its quite that bad, 03:30 for 05:30 should be alright.

It should be, but you won't get to the airport earlier than 04:30 by train.

I think the whole thing would be a non-issue as long as the airports were friendlier towards people sleeping overnight. I've noticed that in the past 10 years or so, airports have been ripping out seating from landside areas, whereas it really shouldn't be an issue to provide couch-type seating throughout landside areas. Dublin Airport struck me for this: I remember 20 years ago when both departures and arrivals had a lot of very comfortable bench-type seating. Nowadays, it's all been ripped out, with barely any seating available, except in the bars/restaurants there. The end result is an airport that is incredibly unfriendly towards anyone waiting overnight for a flight.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't see why they couldn't at least run an hourly service to Stansted throughout the night.

it’s a straight choice: maintain the railway overnight, or not. If ‘not’ then expect frequent closures of the line in daytime to fix it When it breaks.

Luton has an hourly service, so there's really no excuse for Stansted not having the same.

Luton has a 4 track railway all the way from London. Stansted does not.

 

[The exile]

I have never really understood the popularity of the 6am flights. Sure you have a whole day at your destination, but you end up being absolutely knackered when you get there. This plus the lack of trains at that time means I avoid them. If you have to get a taxi or stay overnight at hotel any benefit from the lower fares of these flights is reduced or eliminated.

Get a flight departing at 10am and you have usually have no trouble getting to the airport on public transport. I am too wary of flights arriving after 9pm due to the risk of their being no trains when you arrive. While 9pm is usually fine for getting trains back to London, a delay of more than 90 minutes and you may find you have missed the last train.

The issue is with the many places where there is a choice of flights at (say) either 6am or 10pm - with either nothing in the middle of the day or one that is punitively expensive. I'm usually happy to do the late one on the return leg - assuming the transport works, I don't mind arriving home at stupid o'clock in the morning (though I'd rather not!) - but it's a different kettle of fish arriving somewhere you've never been before approaching midnight - especially if it's one of the budget-airline speciality airports which are probably rather less than buzzing with activity by that time of night.

 

[Lizb]

The biggest reason both Luton and Gatwick can operate through the night is due to four track operations in which two are open and two are closed overnight, Gatwick also has a choice of routes between Blackfriars and East Croydon.

Stansted only has a choice of routes between Liverpool Street and Cheshunt and no bi-directional working north of Cheshunt to Stansted Airport so you will not get trains there thropugh the night unless NR got the access back in some other way - see perhaps the example of Manchester Airport between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport but there is no guarantee NR would be prepared to operate in this way - as has been previously highlighted Section 4 access is very difficult to get NR to give up.


Not sure its quite that bad, 03:30 for 05:30 should be alright.

not if its a long haul flight.

The issue is with the many places where there is a choice of flights at (say) either 6am or 10pm - with either nothing in the middle of the day or one that is punitively expensive. I'm usually happy to do the late one on the return leg - assuming the transport works, I don't mind arriving home at stupid o'clock in the morning (though I'd rather not!) - but it's a different kettle of fish arriving somewhere you've never been before approaching midnight - especially if it's one of the budget-airline speciality airports which are probably rather less than buzzing with activity by that time of night.

If flight leaves at 6am one needs to be at the airport by 3-4am. Most trains and buses don't start until 4am.

04:42 from Paddington to Heathrow (Elizabeth line) should get there you by 0515, and that is theoretically enough time to get some of the earliest flights from Heathrow giving the overnight curfew. Heathrow Express runs quite early too (first train before 05:15). There’s some night buses around too, often very busy with airport workers. The 0142 and 0334 GWR services from Paddington both stop at Hayes, which could then be a bus to Heathrow.

You’d have to take into account infrastructure works which are regularly done overnight as the least impactful on passengers.

If it’s a really really early departure, the pay off for the cheap flights is having to stay in a hotel the night before. I’ve always thought this is actually more expensive that a normal hours flight so it’s a false economy.



Also Chelmsford / Raleigh / Southend have a night bus service (its pretty much 24/7).

Theres no way of getting to Paddington from Croydon without changing 2 or 3 times which isn't ideal with heavy luggage. If the flight leaves Heathrow at 6am and its a long haul flight the 4.42 Paddington train is too late as you would need to be at the airport before that train leaves.

I agree, although fwiw I personally would rather spend about the same amount but get a cheaper flight, even if it meant hotel/cab fare made up the difference (local economies and all that, although if a more resonably timed + priced flight is available I'm obviously going to take it)

Taxi fares have increased massively since the pandemic so people are looking at different options and if the flight is very early its even more expensive.

They tend to live in locations where they can get to their workplace. The major airports generally have 24 hour buses to the locations that they need to.

The super loop bus from Croydon to Heathrow doesn't start until 4am which is too late for early flights.

When I was a student I tended to catch a late train and stay over in the airport if I had an early/morning flight to save £££. Although appreciate not always a realistic option for some people.

Is it worth looking at a hotel away from the airport but still easy to get to from said airport? I'm off away from City Airport in November and have booked a hotel in Milton Keynes the night before dirt cheap (£29 for the night). I'd rather travel from MK (first train to Euston 0330) to Euston than Coventry, given I'd be relying on the first Avanti from cov to get me to Euston OT to make underground/dlr connections to make it in time .

Personally I would say thats still a risk as you're relying on trains leaving on time.

TFL run the night bus service through the early hours, every 30 minutes or so.
If you can get to Liverpool Street or Stratford, then Stansted isn't too difficult.
Not ideal if you have bulky luggage, but it's cheaper than a taxi or an overnight hotel.

Getting to Victoria would be doable but trains don't start early enough and Liverpool Street would involve too many changes.

 

[Horizon22]

not if its a long haul flight.


If flight leaves at 6am one needs to be at the airport by 3-4am. Most trains and buses don't start until 4am.


Theres no way of getting to Paddington from Croydon without changing 2 or 3 times which isn't ideal with heavy luggage. If the flight leaves Heathrow at 6am and its a long haul flight the 4.42 Paddington train is too late as you would need to be at the airport before that train leaves.


Taxi fares have increased massively since the pandemic so people are looking at different options and if the flight is very early its even more expensive.


The super loop bus from Croydon to Heathrow doesn't start until 4am which is too late for early flights.


Personally I would say thats still a risk as you're relying on trains leaving on time.


Getting to Victoria would be doable but trains don't start early enough and Liverpool Street would involve too many changes.

Everyone is offering suggestions and you seem to keep coming up with problems. You will need to accept that before 4am that public transport will be very limited. The vast majority of people will take a taxi.

 

[Lizb]

In the past my husband and I have driven to an airport hotel which has the option to park one's car for the duration of the holiday. If I'm travelling on my own thats not an option as he would need the car while I'm away.

If more airlines flew from Gatwick it would be a lot easier as Heathrow is a pain to get to from South London as theres no tube.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes thats understandable. However they manage to have trains to Farringdon and Gatwick on an hourly timetable in the early hours until the full timetable comes into operation so would be good to have this service for getting to Heathrow.

Even Haneda Airport in Tokyo transport nirvana doesn’t have 24 hour rail service, so people with very early flights will need to book into a hotel.

 

[Lizb]

Everyone is offering suggestions and you seem to keep coming up with problems. You will need to accept that before 4am that public transport will be very limited. The vast majority of people will take a taxi.

taxi fares have increased massively since the pandemic.

Even Haneda Airport in Tokyo transport nirvana doesn’t have 24 hour rail service, so people with very early flights will need to book into a hotel.

Yes staying in a hotel is a good option if theres no transport but for some people the extra cost may make it not an option

 

[bspahh]

I know a lot of people have no choice but the thought of getting to an airport at 04:00 in the morning would fill me with dread. Bad enough doing it for work let alone a so called holiday.

Me too.

I can do late nights, and I can do early mornings, but I have found a useful rule of thumb to make sure I'm in a bed between 2am and 4am.

 

[Horizon22]

taxi fares have increased massively since the pandemic.


Yes staying in a hotel is a good option if theres no transport but for some people the extra cost may make it not an option

So you have exhausted all options then. If you won't/can't take a taxi, won't accept public transport is unlikely to run at such hours, won't book a hotel overnight and won't/can't book a more socially timed flight, not sure what more there is to discuss.

 

[Non Multi]

Train to Gatwick Airport, arriving around midnight. Go to the South Terminal coach station (stand 2).

Take the 'The Airline' OXF (destination Oxford) coach to Heathrow. There's a 0055 departure, arriving at Heathrow at 0200. There's also a later 0255 departure, arriving at Heathrow at 0400. Job done.

 

[Watershed]

Some of the hotels near Heathrow can be very affordable. I've stay at the Premier Inns at T4 and near Hayes & Harlington station for £30-40 plenty of times. There are buses from near both of those that will get you to all terminals at all times of the day & night.

Even if your fare were completely free, you'd be paying at least £36 to depart Heathrow on an international flight (£13 Air Passenger Duty, £23.18 Heathrow passenger charge). So it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that a £40 hotel is completely unaffordable.

Yes, ideally there would be public transport through the night, but that's simply not always the case.

 

[Magdalia]

And Stansted indeed does - to Harlow, and bizarrely Southend, also close to it to Colchester. Surprised Stevenage appears not to feature though.

And Bishops Stortford.

Airline/airport workers living in Stevenage are more likely to have jobs at Luton than Stansted.