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Rail connections should cater for early airline flights

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Falcon1200

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I have never really understood the popularity of the 6am flights.

It's worth pointing out that not every destination has better timed flights.

Indeed; My son recently flew from Glasgow to Frankfurt and there is one flight per day.... at 0600. Which, combined with the ludicrous 2 hour check in time meant someone (ie me) getting up at 0300 to drive him there for 0400.

Perhaps the statement should be 'flights should operate at more convenient times to enable passengers to use public transport to the airport', although I am sure there are valid reasons why this is not possible, just as there are valid reasons for a lack of 24 hour rail services.
 
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Hadders

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You could always ask the airline why their flights don't depart later so you can get the train to the airport.
 

stuu

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You could always ask the airline why their flights don't depart later so you can get the train to the airport.
The budget airlines run as many flights as they possibly can with each aircraft, which means starting as soon as take-offs are permitted. It's the basis of their business model
 

Horizon22

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The budget airlines run as many flights as they possibly can with each aircraft, which means starting as soon as take-offs are permitted. It's the basis of their business model

All airlines will want to do this it’s just that for long-haul operators it’s easier because at 0500/0600 they’ll still be in the air doing overnight flights, but short-haul budget operators have no such luxury so will fly in late (maybe 0000-0100) then the same aircraft will flight out early (0500-0600).
 

Hadders

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The budget airlines run as many flights as they possibly can with each aircraft, which means starting as soon as take-offs are permitted. It's the basis of their business model
I know that and I’m not against the railway providing earlier trains so people can access the airport but this thread is an example of the railway always being at fault when the same question could be asked of the airlines.
 

AndrewE

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I know that and I’m not against the railway providing earlier trains so people can access the airport but this thread is an example of the railway always being at fault when the same question could be asked of the airlines.
What this thread really highlights is that there is no transport policy as such in the UK.

Granted that the leader (Scotland) is trying to get public transport to a better place to be people's first choice (to address congestion and pollution) and has a joined-up decarbonisation agenda, but England resolutely refuses to do so.
No balancing of the carbon implications of different transport modes, no use of taxation to steer people's choices (in fact the opposite,) utter terror of upsetting the motor or aviation lobbies, totally unprepared to support and fully fund active travel...

"We" just turn a bind eye to most progressive ideas and hope that more car use and flights will deliver economic growth.
 

northwichcat

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At the end of the day you just have to price in the cost of a hotel and taxi into any early or late flights. It's often a false economy to book a cheaper flight if it means a hotel is necessary.

The other thing to remember is the time you arrive and leave your destination. I once caught an 8am Dublin flight when there was a 6 Nations match in Dublin. There were only around 5 suitcases checked in and most of the people looked like they only had enough stuff with them for a day trip. Even if you ended up paying £70 in airport taxis (to do it as a day trip) that's unlikely to be more expensive than a hotel in central Dublin on a premium date.

They tend to live in locations where they can get to their workplace. The major airports generally have 24 hour buses to the locations that they need to.

Indeed. In the case of Manchester Airport there's an almost round-the-clock bus service to Wythenshawe, which contains a large area of social housing near the airport. So they'll likely be a lot of people interested in retail and baggage handling jobs only a short commute away.
 

Horizon22

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I know that and I’m not against the railway providing earlier trains so people can access the airport but this thread is an example of the railway always being at fault when the same question could be asked of the airlines.

True! The fact is people on the whole don’t want to be travelling (on any mode!) after 0030 or before 0500. Airport procedures mean that even if arrivals/departures are before/after that you still have to allow another hour to transit which is when the problems arise.
 

Bald Rick

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The flights depart early from base airports to maximise use of the aircraft.

Is the right answer.

I suppose they attract some by offering bargain fares at silly o’clock.

One example, from personal experience, the fare differential between the 0600 and 0700/0800/0900 flights from Luton to Geneva in ski season is usually minimal. In fact often the 0600 is more expensive, which (again, from experience) I put down to the fact that there is less queuing for bag drop / security for the earliest flights, and at destination less queuing for post Brexit immigration.
 

northwichcat

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True! The fact is people on the whole don’t want to be travelling (on any mode!) after 0030 or before 0500. Airport procedures mean that even if arrivals/departures are before/after that you still have to allow another hour to transit which is when the problems arise.

Many package holidays are sold using flights that depart in the early hours of Saturday and Sunday mornings. People often complain about the last trains on Friday and Saturday nights being too early. You could probably get good loadings on a stopping train out of a city, that serves an airport at 3am on Saturday or Sunday.

One example, from personal experience, the fare differential between the 0600 and 0700/0800/0900 flights from Luton to Geneva in ski season is usually minimal. In fact often the 0600 is more expensive, which (again, from experience) I put down to the fact that there is less queuing for bag drop / security for the earliest flights, and at destination less queuing for post Brexit immigration.

If the loadings are similar and it's the same airline the fares will be similar. If people rush to book the 9am flight over the 6am one then the 9am one will increase in price faster. With Luton being a large town around 35 miles north of the capital, it probably has a fairly unique market. I notice I could book a £53 hotel room at Luton Airport for tonight. One of the Premier Inns near Heathrow is fully booked for tonight and a stay next Saturday will cost £91.
 

dk1

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Is the right answer.



One example, from personal experience, the fare differential between the 0600 and 0700/0800/0900 flights from Luton to Geneva in ski season is usually minimal. In fact often the 0600 is more expensive, which (again, from experience) I put down to the fact that there is less queuing for bag drop / security for the earliest flights, and at destination less queuing for post Brexit immigration.

I used to fly lots but haven’t done so since 2001. Recently I’ve been looking at going to Malaga for Fuengerola. Found fantastic times of 13:30 out from Stansted then back at 12:10 to Luton. Perfect times for me 8-)
 

edwin_m

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I used to fly lots but haven’t done so since 2001. Recently I’ve been looking at going to Malaga for Fuengerola. Found fantastic times of 13:30 out from Stansted then back at 12:10 to Luton. Perfect times for me 8-)
Found some good times from East Midlands to Rome a few years ago. Then, a few days before, Ryanair changed the flight from around lunchtime to about 0600. We were offered a refund but they would be pretty safe in expecting most passengers to grin and bear it, as they would already have made bookings for hotels etc and any alternative flight at that short notice would have been very expensive and from a different airport.
 

dk1

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Found some good times from East Midlands to Rome a few years ago. Then, a few days before, Ryanair changed the flight from around lunchtime to about 0600. We were offered a refund but they would be pretty safe in expecting most passengers to grin and bear it, as they would already have made bookings for hotels etc and any alternative flight at that short notice would have been very expensive and from a different airport.

See this is what completely puts me off even booking or thinking of committing to it.
 

infobleep

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The Thameslink route is an outlier amongst British routes for having an overnight service. Most other routes don't have any trains later than about 11pm or midnight, or before 5/6am.

In most cases, that's just how it's always been; when BR was privatised, the Rules of the Route (RoTR - this became section 4 of the Engineering Access Statement) dictated that most lines without overnight freight/sleepers etc. would shut to traffic during the small hours, to allow ad-hoc engineering works to take place without trains needing to be cancelled or diverted. Changing section 4 timings is now a virtually impossible task - I've been party to extensive discussions for changes of just a couple of minutes either way...

The frequency of overnight Thameslink services was reduced back in December, as part of hamfisted efforts by the Department for Transport (DfT) to cut costs in the rail industry. Meanwhile, Elizabeth line services have never ran overnight, and other than perhaps on Friday and Saturday nights (where the 'core' might become part of the Night Tube in the future, as per certain sections of the Overground) likely never will.

The issue with Sunday mornings is even more pronounced, as this is traditionally when demand was lowest and so most overnight engineering work is done then; section 4 timings generally reflect this.

At the end of the day it comes down to the fact that, whilst having overnight services would certainly be possible, demand is usually low and so services would require a higher than usual level of subsidy. With the industry under pressure to cut costs (seemingly more so than increasing revenues) you are more likely to see overnight services withdrawn than extended.
What is demand like overnight on the Thameslink routes?

Guildford to Heathrow has buses running through the night but between 0:00 and 2:29, there isn't anything. However, tonight due to engineering work there is a 0:08 train to Woking, which cuts one's journey time down by 9 minutes as you can get the bus from Woking instead. Obviously, that requires a change and with luggage, you might not want to do that. Still, National Rail Enquiries assumes you would always want to do that and doesn't show the bus from Guildford as the train to Woking undercuts it.

The only solution for those having issues with overnight access is for them to stay in a hotel, or the airport itself, pay for taxis or move to a place that has overnight transport options.

I would love to have been able to get from Guildford to Clapham Junction in the morning peak without having to spend 1 hour on a train with no loos.

Such a thing was not possible unless I agreed to move away from Guildford. I wouldn't do this so I either departed earlier or travelled through central London using the tube. That was my choice.
 
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Bald Rick

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See this is what completely puts me off even booking or thinking of committing to it.

That’s Ryanair for you. They’ve done that to me too. Easyjet are much better :)

What is demand like overnight on the Thameslink routes?

On the north side, relatively light except on Friday nights and especially in the run up to Christmas.
 

infobleep

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That’s Ryanair for you. They’ve done that to me too. Easyjet are much better :)



On the north side, relatively light except on Friday nights and especially in the run up to Christmas.
Playing devil's advocate, could they save money by stopping trains Sunday to Thursday, except maybe in the run up to Christmas?

In fact, they could say they can't run a railway for seasonal loadings and not even have services in the run-up to Christmas.
 

northwichcat

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Indeed; My son recently flew from Glasgow to Frankfurt and there is one flight per day.... at 0600. Which, combined with the ludicrous 2 hour check in time meant someone (ie me) getting up at 0300 to drive him there for 0400.

Perhaps the statement should be 'flights should operate at more convenient times to enable passengers to use public transport to the airport', although I am sure there are valid reasons why this is not possible, just as there are valid reasons for a lack of 24 hour rail services.

The flights depart early from base airports to maximise use of the aircraft.

Plus the destination of the early flights will depend on both demand and available landing slots. Frankfurt is a busy airport with a lot of business travel and people making onward connections to other flights. If it's a Lufthansa flight they'll want an early arrival in Frankfurt so they can offer connections to flights to the USA and Asia, allowing them to compete with BA, KLM and Air France.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is the right answer.

One example, from personal experience, the fare differential between the 0600 and 0700/0800/0900 flights from Luton to Geneva in ski season is usually minimal. In fact often the 0600 is more expensive, which (again, from experience) I put down to the fact that there is less queuing for bag drop / security for the earliest flights, and at destination less queuing for post Brexit immigration.

On some days (particularly Monday) there is also considerable business traffic on the earliest one.
 

gordonthemoron

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For an early flight, I will stay at a hotel near the airport, I’m not risking car, bus, taxi or train, and I would get no sleep if I were at home
 

Grumpy Git

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Have any of you that stay in a hotel prior to an early flight ever considered a late flight the day before / overnight airport hotel at the destination?

I've done it several times and found it a better option, you get a lie-in too.
 
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