Rail connections should cater for early airline flights

[Lizb]

Does anyone know why train companies don't run trains early enough to get to airport for 2-3 hour check in time before early flights?

I live in Croydon so I can get to Gatwick easily, as the trains and buses seem to run once an hour, but would be better if they were more frequent.

However most airlines seem to favour Heathrow which involves changing trains which isn't easy with luggage.

Now that Elizabeth line is in operation I should be able to go from East Croydon to Farringdon and then pick up the Elizabeth line to Heathrow. However the direct Elizabeth line trains from Farringdon don't start until 6am which is too late for early flights and the alternative suggested is to go from Paddington but trains don't start till 4:30 and its impossible to get to Paddington from East Croydon to pick up the first train.

The alternative is to take the superloop bus which takes 1.5 hours but they don't start till 4:30.

Why on earth don't airports and train companies work together?

If a flight leaves at 6am that means aiming to bea t the airport by 3-4am, but there are no trains to get you there.

Theres a similar issue with connections to St Pancras for Eurostar; if you travel on a Sunday its even worse as for some reason the train companies think its ok to start trains later, not taking into account shift workers and those travelling.

 

[Llanigraham]

You go up the night before and book into a convenient hotel. We've been doing that for years.

 

[Lizb]

Thats one option but train companies should make it easier so one doesn't have the added expense.

 

[dk1]

Thats one option but train companies should make it easier so one doesn't have the added expense.

It’s all down to limited demand & the need for overnight track maintenance.

 

[skyhigh]

Thats one option but train companies should make it easier so one doesn't have the added expense.

Unfortunately it costs money running trains. Lots of operators are also already short of staff.

So to add extra early morning services you'd need to pull other trains from the timetable. If those trains have a higher passenger load then by removing them and reallocating the resource to quieter services you are increasing the subsidy required to run the railway. If you employ more drivers to work the extra trains, again increasing costs which are unlikely to be covered by revenue from quiet trains. You are also cutting the window for overnight maintenance which means the same amount of work will take more days to complete (and staff be less efficient due to more time spent setting up/clearing away compared to working) which will make that more expensive too.

Don't get me wrong, where it aids connectivity it would be great for the railway to run additional services. But against a background where the government are simply interested in reducing operating costs at all costs you aren't going to see the improvements you're looking for unfortunately.

 

[northwichcat]

You go up the night before and book into a convenient hotel. We've been doing that for years.

It does reduce demand for airport rail services though. If the £20 budget airline fares are for 6.30am flights, then the people looking at cheap getaways will decide not to bother if they have to fork out £90 for an airport hotel. The railways might get business and long haul passengers travelling the night before, but it doesn't generally work for European holidays and not everyone lives near an airport.

The two busiest hours for departures at Manchester Airport are 6am-7am and 7am-8am. TransPennine Express do actually provide some services to meet that demand. Northern provide an overnight Preston service, but for some reason don't bother with an early Crewe to Manchester Airport.

 

[Lizb]

Yes thats understandable. However they manage to have trains to Farringdon and Gatwick on an hourly timetable in the early hours until the full timetable comes into operation so would be good to have this service for getting to Heathrow.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Yes thats understandable. However they manage to have trains to Farringdon and Gatwick on an hourly timetable in the early hours until the full timetable comes into operation so would be good to have this service for getting to Heathrow.

To be honest, it would be more cost effective to run Superloop 24/7, with at least 1 per hour from midnight to 4.

And with the lack of traffic, you could speed up the services significantly. I have used the Superloop Croydon to Heathrow before (formerly X26) from Heathrow to Kingston and there was a lot of slack in the timetable on that section.
You could easily cut down the timings end to end to an hour and 10 mins at night.
This would provide similar timings to the train.

 

[fishwomp]

Does anyone know why train companies don't run trains early enough to get to airport for 2-3 hour check in time before early flights?

Because hardly anyone arrives 3 hours early for a flight so they don't need to put on a service.

I aim to arrive 1 hour before take off for European destinations, but 2 hours for transatlantic or other v long distance ones and always have plenty of time to get a coffee and meander to the gate.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Stansted suffers particularly badly from this, as the last train is at 23:25 and the first train is at 03:40 from Liverpool Street. The 03:40 only arrives at 04:30, which is too late for a large chunk of the 05:30-06:30 departures. It wouldn't be so bad in Stansted if it was possible to go airside from midnight onwards, but in their wisdom, the terminal is effectively closed down (minus a tiny part at arrivals) between around 23:30 to 02:00 or so.

I don't see why they couldn't at least run an hourly service to Stansted throughout the night. Luton has an hourly service, so there's really no excuse for Stansted not having the same.

Because hardly anyone arrives 3 hours early for a flight so they don't need to put on a service.

Stansted has around 15-20 departures between 05:30 and 06:30, and it would be very ill-advised to arrive there after 03:30 for a 05:30 flight if you have baggage to check in.

 

[alholmes]

Plenty of coaches run all night from central London to Heathrow. From Victoria, first coach is at 2.15am. Liverpool Street to Stansted coaches operate 24 hours.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Because hardly anyone arrives 3 hours early for a flight so they don't need to put on a service.

I aim to arrive 1 hour before take off for European destinations, but 2 hours for transatlantic or other v long distance ones and always have plenty of time to get a coffee and meander to the gate.

Someone needs a trip to a Northern airport (Manchester is a good example) or Southern low cost airport like Stanstead/Gatwick/Luton to see why people arrive that early. The large low cost airports often have terrible security queues and they won't hold your flights for you. Add to this the acres of duty free you have to walk through after security to the gate, plus the manual check in at some airlines and you'll understand why 3 hours is a good idea.

 

[Lizb]

To be honest, it would be more cost effective to run Superloop 24/7, with at least 1 per hour from midnight to 4.

And with the lack of traffic, you could speed up the services significantly. I have used the Superloop Croydon to Heathrow before (formerly X26) from Heathrow to Kingston and there was a lot of slack in the timetable on that section.
You could easily cut down the timings end to end to an hour and 10 mins at night.
This would provide similar timings to the train.

I've used X26 in the past and in the daytime it would take at least 1.5 hrs but obviously quicker in early morning. They've now improved it so that it goes every 15 mins.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I've used X26 in the past and in the daytime it would take at least 1.5 hrs but obviously quicker in early morning. They've now improved it so that it goes every 15 mins.

Yes, the improvement is certainly welcome. I'd say it defo needs to be 24/7 though

 

[Lizb]

Because hardly anyone arrives 3 hours early for a flight so they don't need to put on a service.

I aim to arrive 1 hour before take off for European destinations, but 2 hours for transatlantic or other v long distance ones and always have plenty of time to get a coffee and meander to the gate.

Your comment presumes too much. I always arrive early for a flight so I'm not in a rush. If you don't live near the airport you need to factor in transport delays. It also depends on the airport, destination and time of flight as to how much time is needed as there can be long queues.

Yes, the improvement is certainly welcome. I'd say it defo needs to be 24/7 though

yes agree. Starting at 4am is still a bit late for some departures.

Plenty of coaches run all night from central London to Heathrow. From Victoria, first coach is at 2.15am. Liverpool Street to Stansted coaches operate 24 hours.

thats assuming you can get to a train to London at that time as not all places have trains running at that time.

 

[Watershed]

The Thameslink route is an outlier amongst British routes for having an overnight service. Most other routes don't have any trains later than about 11pm or midnight, or before 5/6am.

In most cases, that's just how it's always been; when BR was privatised, the Rules of the Route (RoTR - this became section 4 of the Engineering Access Statement) dictated that most lines without overnight freight/sleepers etc. would shut to traffic during the small hours, to allow ad-hoc engineering works to take place without trains needing to be cancelled or diverted. Changing section 4 timings is now a virtually impossible task - I've been party to extensive discussions for changes of just a couple of minutes either way...

The frequency of overnight Thameslink services was reduced back in December, as part of hamfisted efforts by the Department for Transport (DfT) to cut costs in the rail industry. Meanwhile, Elizabeth line services have never ran overnight, and other than perhaps on Friday and Saturday nights (where the 'core' might become part of the Night Tube in the future, as per certain sections of the Overground) likely never will.

The issue with Sunday mornings is even more pronounced, as this is traditionally when demand was lowest and so most overnight engineering work is done then; section 4 timings generally reflect this.

At the end of the day it comes down to the fact that, whilst having overnight services would certainly be possible, demand is usually low and so services would require a higher than usual level of subsidy. With the industry under pressure to cut costs (seemingly more so than increasing revenues) you are more likely to see overnight services withdrawn than extended.

 

[fishwomp]

Someone needs a trip to a Northern airport (Manchester is a good example) or Southern low cost airport like Stanstead/Gatwick/Luton to see why people arrive that early. The large low cost airports often have terrible security queues and they won't hold your flights for you. Add to this the acres of duty free you have to walk through after security to the gate, plus the manual check in at some airlines and you'll understand why 3 hours is a good idea.

I have travelled from all of those airports you listed..! Plus Birmingham, but we're not playing airport bingo,

Fwiw, OP was specifically asking about Heathrow - which has always been amongst my best airport experiences.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I have travelled from all of those airports you listed..! Plus Birmingham, but we're not playing airport bingo,

Fwiw, OP was specifically asking about Heathrow - which has always been amongst my best airport experiences.

Oh God, you survived Manchester intact?! Maybe you paid the robbing b.... for fast track.
I saw they were asking about Heathrow yes, but Heathrow security isn't massively smooth outside Terminal 5 either.
2hrs would be cutting it fine for medium/long haul international, even at Heathrow, in my mind

 

[Cloud Strife]

Plenty of coaches run all night from central London to Heathrow. From Victoria, first coach is at 2.15am. Liverpool Street to Stansted coaches operate 24 hours.

Victoria is really quite inconvenient if you're coming from the other side of London, though. National Express also aren't the most reliable.

The large low cost airports often have terrible security queues and they won't hold your flights for you.

Yes, Stansted can be a nightmare at 4:30 in the morning. Things are better now that they've started opening security at around 02:00, but it's still very very busy at that time.

I do think though, that a lot of the problems with Stansted and Luton originate in the fact that the low cost airlines only allow bags to be dropped off 2 hours before the flight. The end result is that you need to get there 3 hours before just to queue up, whereas the problem could be alleviated by allowing luggage to be checked in 24/7 before flights, especially overnight.

 

[dk1]

I know a lot of people have no choice but the thought of getting to an airport at 04:00 in the morning would fill me with dread. Bad enough doing it for work let alone a so called holiday.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I know a lot of people have no choice but the thought of getting to an airport at 04:00 in the morning would fill me with dread. Bad enough doing it for work let alone a so called holiday.

A factor of closing perfectly suitable airports like Manston and underusing perfectly good airports like London Southend.

 

[AndrewE]

Because hardly anyone arrives 3 hours early for a flight so they don't need to put on a service.

I aim to arrive 1 hour before take off for European destinations, but 2 hours for transatlantic or other v long distance ones and always have plenty of time to get a coffee and meander to the gate.,

Like cloud strife we certainly do... at Manchester. And our trains in the NW are so unreliable that even I (ex-rail employee and long-time advocate for rail use) daren't rely on the train for a 30-mile journey early a.m. Stay in an on-site hotel.
Coming home I can get a succession of buses or even a taxi if the train service has gone down the pan.

 

[fishwomp]

Oh God, you survived Manchester intact?! Maybe you paid the robbing b.... for fast track.
I saw they were asking about Heathrow yes, but Heathrow security isn't massively smooth outside Terminal 5 either.
2hrs would be cutting it fine for medium/long haul international, even at Heathrow, in my mind

No, never paid for fast track.. I consider that to be a disgrace and not something to encourage. The whole thing says "do your core job so badly that people pay you for what you ought to already be doing". If an airport's job is not to get people securely and efficiently to the plane, I'm not sure what it is.

And no, the core job is not to sell overpriced sunglasses and perfume.. but that is also why airports like people there early - so that they make more money in rent from the shops.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I only once tried to travel to the airport on the day of a flight and it was the most stressful experience. No matter what time the flight leaves, I’m staying at a hotel at the airport the night before. I would trust night trains if they ran.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Like cloud strife we certainly do... at Manchester. And our trains in the NW are so unreliable that even I (ex-rail employee and long-time advocate for rail use) daren't rely on the train for a 30-mile journey early a.m. Stay in an on-site hotel.
Coming home I can get a succession of buses or even a taxi if the train service has gone down the pan.

The one advantage of Manchester is that you can wait in the bus station if your flight is super early, and then head straight through security when check in opens.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I know a lot of people have no choice but the thought of getting to an airport at 04:00 in the morning would fill me with dread. Bad enough doing it for work let alone a so called holiday.

It's not that bad if it fits with your travel plans. For instance, I'm going to a retro computing festival in Cambridge in November, and the way that the flights work is that I'll be able to fly over on Saturday morning, go to the festival, go for a few beers and then fly back Sunday morning first thing. If the flight was midday, I'd have to get a hotel, but a 06:30 flight means that I can just stay in the pub until 23:00 or so, then go to the airport and have a sleep there.

Or last November, I flew to London for the day: 06:00 flight from Wrocław, I was in central London before 09:00 UK time, we had a whole day in London and then a flight back at 21:00 from Luton. As a day trip, it was perfect.

With a holiday, it's more inconvenient, because you often can't get into your accommodation until mid afternoon.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No, never paid for fast track.. I consider that to be a disgrace and not something to encourage. The whole thing says "do your core job so badly that people pay you for what you ought to already be doing". If an airport's job is not to get people securely and efficiently to the plane, I'm not sure what it is.

And no, the core job is not to sell overpriced sunglasses and perfume.. but that is also why airports like people there early - so that they make more money in rent from the shops.

I totally agree, I think it is a side effect of flying low cost though. There's always a catch!

 

[dk1]

It's not that bad if it fits with your travel plans. For instance, I'm going to a retro computing festival in Cambridge in November, and the way that the flights work is that I'll be able to fly over on Saturday morning, go to the festival, go for a few beers and then fly back Sunday morning first thing. If the flight was midday, I'd have to get a hotel, but a 06:30 flight means that I can just stay in the pub until 23:00 or so, then go to the airport and have a sleep there.

Or last November, I flew to London for the day: 06:00 flight from Wrocław, I was in central London before 09:00 UK time, we had a whole day in London and then a flight back at 21:00 from Luton. As a day trip, it was perfect.

With a holiday, it's more inconvenient, because you often can't get into your accommodation until mid afternoon.

That’s fair enough if you don’t mind but not for me. I don’t think I liked sleeping other than in a bed when I was a teenager or in my twenties let alone now lol. I just wouldn’t go if that was my only option.

 

[Monarch010]

Victoria is really quite inconvenient if you're coming from the other side of London, though. National Express also aren't the most reliable.



Yes, Stansted can be a nightmare at 4:30 in the morning. Things are better now that they've started opening security at around 02:00, but it's still very very busy at that time.

I do think though, that a lot of the problems with Stansted and Luton originate in the fact that the low cost airlines only allow bags to be dropped off 2 hours before the flight. The end result is that you need to get there 3 hours before just to queue up, whereas the problem could be alleviated by allowing luggage to be checked in 24/7 before flights, especially overnight.

TFL run the night bus service through the early hours, every 30 minutes or so.
If you can get to Liverpool Street or Stratford, then Stansted isn't too difficult.
Not ideal if you have bulky luggage, but it's cheaper than a taxi or an overnight hotel.

 

[Lizb]

TFL run the night bus service through the early hours, every 30 minutes or so.
If you can get to Liverpool Street or Stratford, then Stansted isn't too difficult.
Not ideal if you have bulky luggage, but it's cheaper than a taxi or an overnight hotel.

Theres still the issue of getting to Liverpool Street.