Rail Magazine East Coast Pendolino Article

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SkinnyDave

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Hi,

Interesting article in this weeks magazine regarding 390s running on the ECML.
Alstom claiming with Tilt and ERTMS and 140mph running they can cut 50 minutes off running time from Edinburgh to Kings Cross.
They are also looking at promoting smaller pendolinos for regional work.
 
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Schnellzug

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I just saw that, yes. I'm sure someone can do the Maths, but that seems a bit ambitious to me, at 15 mph faster, particularly as Tilt would only be any use north of Newcastle. Still, full marks to Alstom for some energetic salesmanship.
 

Yew

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What? running trains at 140mph means they get there faster? I imagine a IC225 could knock 30-40 mins off the time if it was cleared for 225kmph running
 

SkinnyDave

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I just saw that, yes. I'm sure someone can do the Maths, but that seems a bit ambitious to me, at 15 mph faster, particularly as Tilt would only be any use north of Newcastle. Still, full marks to Alstom for some energetic salesmanship.

I spoke with a couple of Pendolino Drivers at the model rail show in Glasgow a few months back and they feel that the 390 would come into its own between Edinburgh and Newcastle and that it would be able to be on full tilt for longer periods.

I like the class but do agree with others that especially in standard class the seating arrangements need to be looked at before another operator takes it on.
 

tbtc

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I spoke with a couple of Pendolino Drivers at the model rail show in Glasgow a few months back and they feel that the 390 would come into its own between Edinburgh and Newcastle

I'd be really interested to tilt on one between Edinburgh and Newcastle, but I suspect that the number of slow trains on the ECML (like the Scotrail services between Edinburgh and Drem, the Northern services between Morpeth and Newcastle, the TPE stops at Chester le Street, the flat crossing Pacers at Doncaster etc) would mean little scope for much 140mph running on the ECML.
 

317666

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I'd be really interested to tilt on one between Edinburgh and Newcastle, but I suspect that the number of slow trains on the ECML (like the Scotrail services between Edinburgh and Drem, the Northern services between Morpeth and Newcastle, the TPE stops at Chester le Street, the flat crossing Pacers at Doncaster etc) would mean little scope for much 140mph running on the ECML.

However, it would mean that the superior acceleration of a Pendolino compared to a HST or 91+Mk4 Set would still allow marginally quicker journey times as they would be able to get back up to speed quicker after having to slow down/stop.
 

HSTEd

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Would be interesting to put one to work on the Newark stoppers and see what happens with regards to travel times.
 

Failed Unit

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North of Darlington to be honest would be good tilting as well. East coast could cut 15 mins off now, the 1500 pre Eureka used to be 4h12 with the same stops as now.
 

Masboroughlad

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Is it touted as an alternative for IEP? Must have a read.....
Smaller ones for local or regional services - wonder where that would be?
 

shaun

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Good, providing they re-design them and provide more comfort and space internally. There are lots of different variations of pendolini, they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) be replica Class 390s.
 

SkinnyDave

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Is it touted as an alternative for IEP? Must have a read.....
Smaller ones for local or regional services - wonder where that would be?

No for IEP replacement as that is only to replace East Coast HST fleet, they are touting this to replace the class 91/MK4 fleet.
I would imagine( This is a guess) the smaller ones would be for the possibility of TPE routes for Scotland-Manchester Airport and the new Edinburgh-Liverpool routes being talked about
 

WatcherZero

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Is it touted as an alternative for IEP? Must have a read.....
Smaller ones for local or regional services - wonder where that would be?

No Alstom are pushing it as complementary to IEP, 6 coach formations built in Italy for the secondary routes to complete the withdrawal of locomotives.

However to get the speed benefits would require billions in infrastructure upgrades.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good, providing they re-design them and provide more comfort and space internally. There are lots of different variations of pendolini, they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) be replica Class 390s.

Actually their pushing exactly the 390 as its a cheap design thats been manufactured for 10 years based on mature 70's and 80's technology (their words)
 

HSTEd

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Is this Mark 4/91 replacement option a real option or just one included for form's sake?
 

SkinnyDave

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Is this Mark 4/91 replacement option a real option or just one included for form's sake?



In the most recent meet the managers forum for East Coast they did confirm that they are looking at options for Electric fleet replacement
 

rail-britain

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Is this Mark 4/91 replacement option a real option or just one included for form's sake?
This forms part of the current East Coast bid
The bidder has to put forward options for utilising the existing fleet, the replacement fleet (IC225 and IEP), and future rolling stock (replacement for IC225)

This suggests Virgin Rail Group and Alstom have already discussed options, and this has resulted in the article
 

Schnellzug

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Actually their pushing exactly the 390 as its a cheap design thats been manufactured for 10 years based on mature 70's and 80's technology (their words)

A manucturer pleased to admit that it's old fashioned technology? That's rather a refreshing change.
Of course, we won't talk about them fact that SBB are anxious to get rid of the ETR470 Pendos they formerly shared with FS on account of their dreadful reliability .... :D
 

Failed Unit

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Sounds very grim in the ECML - pendo's instead of the 91s.

What is interesting is that you would have thought they would want all IEP, even if it is a mix between that extremely overpriced bi-mode and all electrics at least you have a common fleet and a longer manufactures run. If the have pendos and the money pit (iEP bi-mode) you need to double your spares department for a start.
 

sprinterguy

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What? running trains at 140mph means they get there faster? I imagine a IC225 could knock 30-40 mins off the time if it was cleared for 225kmph running
That goes against what BR had calculated: I can't tell you what the time saving for the East Coast would be, but for the West Coast route, when APT was a live proposal, BR calculated that 140mph running with tilt would shave just 8 minutes off 125mph (with tilt) running on a London to Glasgow run, and obviously the WCML is more sinuous and tilt can be more frequently employed. Of course, even just the introduction of tilt onto the present 125mph ECML would save some time, and this would be compounded with the introduction of 140mph running, but I am highly dubious of the claim that Pendos could cut 50 minutes off the Edinburgh - London journey time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sounds very grim in the ECML - pendo's instead of the 91s.

What is interesting is that you would have thought they would want all IEP, even if it is a mix between that extremely overpriced bi-mode and all electrics at least you have a common fleet and a longer manufactures run. If the have pendos and the money pit (iEP bi-mode) you need to double your spares department for a start.
A follow on order of 9-car electric IEPs to replace the 225s over 26 diagrams has been expressed as a preferred option by the DfT in the recent East Coast franchise consultation. Although obviously, this is still open to discussion, and bidders are free to suggest their own rolling stock policies.
 

Failed Unit

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A follow on order of 9-car electric IEPs to replace the 225s over 26 diagrams has been expressed as a preferred option by the DfT in the recent East Coast franchise consultation. Although obviously, this is still open to discussion, and bidders are free to suggest their own rolling stock policies.

it is sad dft want to get rid of the 225s and 91s considering how young they are and they could easily have 20 years left in them. You would hope they would want to spend cash on replacing dangerous rolling stock like the pacer.

Would be funny if the bidders are really allowed thier own proposals of none of them went for IEP
 

HSTEd

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That goes against what BR had calculated: I can't tell you what the time saving for the East Coast would be, but for the West Coast route, when APT was a live proposal, BR calculated that 140mph running with tilt would shave just 8 minutes off 125mph (with tilt) running on a London to Glasgow run, and obviously the WCML is more sinuous and tilt can be more frequently employed. Of course, even just the introduction of tilt onto the present 125mph ECML would save some time, and this would be compounded with the introduction of 140mph running, but I am highly dubious of the claim that Pendos could cut 50 minutes off the Edinburgh - London journey time.

APT was effectively a loco hauled formation however, it wouldn't accelerate as fast as a Pendolino would.
 

sprinterguy

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it is sad dft want to get rid of the 225s and 91s considering how young they are and they could easily have 20 years left in them. You would hope they would want to spend cash on replacing dangerous rolling stock like the pacer.
The 225s wouldn't be replaced by IEPs until 2020 at the earliest, so they have essentially another ten years of life in them at the very least. You've got to consider that there are some very long lead times involved in delivering the IEP project.
 

sprinterguy

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APT was effectively a loco hauled formation however, it wouldn't accelerate as fast as a Pendolino would.
Yes; the 91s essentially delivered the proposed performance of the APT (albeit without tilt of course) on the ECML, but with the number of pathing conflicts present on the ECML then I think it is doubtful that the enhanced acceleration of Pendolinos would deliver much more of a step change in journey times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yep, with the Loco in the Middle of the train if my memory serves.
Two of them in fact, giving eight powered axles and a power output that the Pendolinos fall well short of. Production APTs would have had the power cars at the ends of the train though. Much like a "souped up" 225 formation.
 

ainsworth74

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APT was effectively a loco hauled formation however, it wouldn't accelerate as fast as a Pendolino would.

On a long distance service acceleration is less of an issue. It'd be interesting to see how an APT stacked up against a 390 on one of the runs to Glasgow that's limited stops, for example if you put a 390 up against an APT on the 1630 EUS to GLC that stops only at Preston I'd gamble there'd be very little in it. I'd also not be surprised if there wasn't much difference between the two on the services that call at most stations between Warrington and Carlisle as there is still a lot of non-stop running at either end.

An APT also had more power on tap than a 390 and as we know from Jeremy Clarkson it's all about the POWER!!!

;)
 

Robbies

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On a long distance service acceleration is less of an issue. It'd be interesting to see how an APT stacked up against a 390 on one of the runs to Glasgow that's limited stops, for example if you put a 390 up against an APT on the 1630 EUS to GLC that stops only at Preston I'd gamble there'd be very little in it. I'd also not be surprised if there wasn't much difference between the two on the services that call at most stations between Warrington and Carlisle as there is still a lot of non-stop running at either end.

An APT also had more power on tap than a 390 and as we know from Jeremy Clarkson it's all about the POWER!!!

;)

I bet the APT would have got there first....;)
 

tbtc

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it is sad dft want to get rid of the 225s and 91s considering how young they are and they could easily have 20 years left in them. You would hope they would want to spend cash on replacing dangerous rolling stock like the pacer

I didn't think they were trying to get rid of 225s, just move them on to other routes (maybe an electrified MML or the GEML?)? Bit different.
 

WatcherZero

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Sounds very grim in the ECML - pendo's instead of the 91s.

What is interesting is that you would have thought they would want all IEP, even if it is a mix between that extremely overpriced bi-mode and all electrics at least you have a common fleet and a longer manufactures run. If the have pendos and the money pit (iEP bi-mode) you need to double your spares department for a start.

They wont maintain the IEP, it would just be the 91's they were maintaining.
 

LE Greys

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What? running trains at 140mph means they get there faster? I imagine a IC225 could knock 30-40 mins off the time if it was cleared for 225kmph running

3hrs 29mins 59secs when run non-stop in 1991 with authorisation to exceed 125 on the Northallerton-York 'racetrack', the Selby Diversion, most of the line between Bawtry and Barkston, Stoke Bank and Holme-Hitchin. From that, plus signalling and junction improvements, I'd say a 3hrs 40 schedule on the Flying Scotsman and 3hrs 50 on most expresses would be possible. It would be expensive though. Retrofitting tilt might also be possible, and would help in various places from Hatfield to Drem. Better acceleration from MU stock might achieve sub-4hr times without any enhancements at all, but we can't be quite sure.
 

Roylang

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This forms part of the current East Coast bid
The bidder has to put forward options for utilising the existing fleet, the replacement fleet (IC225 and IEP), and future rolling stock (replacement for IC225)

This suggests Virgin Rail Group and Alstom have already discussed options, and this has resulted in the article

If that is the case and could therefore form part of a Virgin proposal, this sounds very much like a breach of confidentiality?

Roy
 
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