Rail north of Perth 'Unfit for Purpose'

[Ascot]

Depends on how much the flight costs...

When I checked yesterday, a flexible economy BMI ticket from Edinburgh to London now costs £550.

Three weeks salary at minimum wage.

If this is aimed at people who have meetings/work at 9am then a company will pay so cost is no object. People on minimum wage don't mind getting in at 10am.

 

[Bodie]

Hello,

This report should be retitled 'Stating the bleeding obvious'

We see this sort of thing for everything under the sun these days. All talk and no action.

The Highland Mainline is a subject close to my heart, as are all matters of Far North transport.
I used to regularly make the journey from Lancashire to Kyle and the bit I loathed was the three and half hours between Inverness and Edinburgh.

If I had any power in this country I would make one of my pet projects, a full scale upgrade of Highland transport (Rail, Sea, Air and Road)

Off topic - The last timetable change has brought foward the 0918 dep from Inverness to Queen Street, so that it leaves before the first Kyle train arrives!
Have to wait now for the next dep to Edinburgh. Annoying thing is that the Glasgow train leaves just five or six minutes before the Kyle train gets in!, all this after Scotrail changed the first Kyle train to connect with the old 0918!

Rant over, I agree with ObservationCar a rebuilt Highland Mainline would be a great matter of pride to the nation and a 21st century railway as reward.
All the excuses that the terrain would put pay to such a thing is nonsense. The Victorians great though they were, had to work with the terrain. Steep gradiants, twisty routes etc
In the 21st century we can, if only we stopped being so negative and being run by luddites who hate anything that man has created, we could level any mountains in the way or bore a ruddy great hole through it.

Three and a half hours! - Give me power and it would be mere minutes

Take the A9 road that snakes along side the railway. The thing is decades overdue rebuilding but we are told it will be dual carriageway from Perth to Inverness throughout by 2026!!!!
I'd have it a moterway by 2016!

Why did we stop building in 1900???

Bodie

 

[kylemore]

Like I said earlier, if they cannot fill a 30 seater flight then what chance has a 3 coach train got?

Note: As proven people who need to be in at 9 will be in for 9 regardless of rail or air.

They are totally different markets!
The fact that Loganair could not fill a flight from Inverness to Edinburgh is completely irrelevent to the argument except for the very very top of the market.
Whether there are large amounts of people making the journey by car who would be attracted to Rail by adjustments to the timetable backed up by competitive pricing is a hundred times more relevent.

 

[ainsworth74]

In the 21st century we can, if only we stopped being so negative and being run by luddites who hate anything that man has created, we could level any mountains in the way or bore a ruddy great hole through it.

I'm not a Luddite nor do I feel am particularly negative. My issue is instead with the fact that there are other projects around that would cost less and achieve more. And lets face it levelling a mountain or putting a tunnel through the middle of it (something which the Victorians could do if you look at some of the tunnels they made) would cost a massive amount of money.

 

[kylemore]

In any case the flight was probably aimed at people inter-connecting at Edinburgh Airport with the wider range of destinations from there. The reason it didnt work may have been because passengers preferred to travel to London by a more frequent service to inter-connect there with a hugely wider choice of destinations.

 

[Ascot]

In any case the flight was probably aimed at people inter-connecting at Edinburgh Airport with the wider range of destinations from there. The reason it didnt work may have been because passengers preferred to travel to London by a more frequent service to inter-connect there with a hugely wider choice of destinations.

Not at all, that flight was aimed for those who had to work in Edinburgh. IIRC it came from Stornoway first so even then it couldn't be full. The reason they scrapped it was not enough people needed to be in for 9am (as before money is no object, security is no pain). The point remains though, there's not enough people commuting to Inverness to Edinburgh (who would pay money to make a service worthwhile) to justify all the extra logistics. It's these top people that are required to pay and use the service as who else would want to leave Inverness early to get into Edinburgh all day every day and pay for a season ticket. I could see Aberdeen getting an upgrade before Inverness (bar an extra passing loop?).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tbtc]

As far as demand is concerned you only have to stand at the side of the A9 and watch the Citylink and Megabuses go by with people who in a rationally organised European country would be on trains

Generally speaking people who are being paid to travel from Inverness to Edinburgh to attend meetings etc do not travel by bus so absence of a bus offering a pre 9am arrival in Edinburgh is more or less irrelevent

They are totally different markets!
The fact that Loganair could not fill a flight from Inverness to Edinburgh is completely irrelevent to the argument except for the very very top of the market

I'm a bit confused.

The fact that there's not enough demand to fill a thirty seat plane from Inverness arriving in Edinburgh around 09.00 is "irrelevant" because only the very rich would use such a service, yet the fact that there's not enough demand to fill a fifty seat coach from Inverness arriving in Edinburgh around 09.00 is "irrelevant" because only the poor would use such a service?

To me, the fact that there's no plane or coach aiming for that market would suggest that there simply isn't a commercial market for such a service.

And it's not just about those with swanky business meetings in the capital, you've got to consider those on normal incomes who want to have a full weekend in the Highlands and still be at work for a normal time on Monday morning (rather than having to cut the weekend short on a Sunday teatime).

To get people out of the buses you need to run 5 or 7 car trains off-peak with a range of discounted fare products

So the way forward is to double the length of the trains and slash the fares? If there aren't enough people to pay the bus fare for a 05.00 departure from Inverness then I doubt that there are enough people to pay the train fare.

I would suggest that the £50m that the Scottish Govt is going to spend on new or upgraded sleepers would be better spent buying as many off the peg 5 or 7 car DEMUs as possible to increase capacity, no expensive infrastructure needed just double or more the capacity of existing workings.

I'd agree with that - the money spent on the Sleeper will only benefit a tiny minority (on a handful of journeys a week) and would be much better spent on longer distance trains for the Edinburgh/Glasgow - Inverness/Aberdeen services.

Ok, so. Say the following service ran to Glasgow...

Inverness [AVM] 06:00
Aviemore [AVM] 06:34
Kingussie [KIN] 06:46
Pitlochry [PIT] 07:28
Perth [PTH] 07:59
Stirling [STG] 08:27
Glasgow [GLQ] 08:58

Is it likely that this service will be busy or pretty empty when it reaches Weegieland?

Any service arriving in Glasgow at nine in the morning ought to be busy. The question is, would it be busy enough at the Inverness end?

 

[kylemore]

The CAR traffic!

Yes if you can demonstrate there are no cars travelling down the A9 leaving the Inverness area around 5-7am and arriving Central Belt/Edinburgh around 7.30-9.30am then yes you have won the argument, I put my hands up!

However I think you will find there are PLENTY.

That is the market this would be aimed at.

As for filling 5/7 car trains - please have some ambition for Rail, the right combination of service improvements and competitive pricing WILL attract people from the uncomfortable bus services, and as these improvements develop will attract increasing amounts of people who currently go by car, driving the A9 is not pleasant and it would'nt take much to tip many over into trying the train!

 

[ObservationCar]

I used to do a lot of contracting in Glasgow and Edinburgh. Living in Dingwall meant driving, leaving at around 0530 and would arrive in the Central Belt 0830ish Leaving 0600 meant arriving 0930-0945. The traffic on the A9 was horendus, just by leaving that bit later. especially by Pitlochry/Ballinluig area. Being self employed at the time meant there was no way I could afford a flight.

There is a commuter train already from Blair Atholl which arrives Edinburgh at 9ish, just extend that. Saves an ECS from Perth, Would mean putting another Turbostar or 158 on the end of the last train to Inverness the Night before.

The issue is not for bang on 0900 or 0850 for 9. But to get into the capital earlier than what is possible at present as most events training/meetings/shifts are happy to commence at 0930

 

[NSEFAN]

Any service arriving in Glasgow at nine in the morning ought to be busy. The question is, would it be busy enough at the Inverness end?

Perhaps there needs to be a trial to see how it works out? If there's enough publicity, it might kick things off and perhaps even pave the way for a better service?

 

[scotsman]

The Transport Minister expressed interest to me, and a few others, in using Voyagers - he didn't say where, but I imagine the HML would be one of the routes. A recent report on the HML also said Voyagers would be more appropriate traction.

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps there needs to be a trial to see how it works out? If there's enough publicity, it might kick things off and perhaps even pave the way for a better service?

Maybe it would work - I'm not trying to pour cold water on everything just to put things in some perspective.

The Transport Minister expressed interest to me, and a few others, in using Voyagers - he didn't say where, but I imagine the HML would be one of the routes. A recent report on the HML also said Voyagers would be more appropriate traction.

Which spare Voyagers would these be?

Bearing in mind that a four coach Voyager would have fewer seats than a three coach 170, wouldn't it be easier to get some more 170s diverted to the HML (when they are replaced on the Central Belt routes due to EGIP)?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Any service arriving in Glasgow at nine in the morning ought to be busy. The question is, would it be busy enough at the Inverness end?

I don't have any numbers. However, I do see a constant stream of passengers (perhaps 100?) wandering through the station onto the 07:55 HST to Edinburgh and London, arriving in Edin around 11:15 (by which time pax number have more than doubled and sometimes reaching over an apparent 80%).
Passenger numbers even out of the holiday season are more than adequate to justify a 4-car or longer train and I'd expect earlier services would provide a welcome option for many who wouldn't want to drive even if they could at that time of day (and usually in the dark).
I don't know what the loading is like on the 06:47 FSR to Edinburgh which arrives at 10:00 but I'd expect takers for an even earlier 06:00 departure due to the 'sensible' arrival time for the business day.

 

[kylemore]

Maybe it would work - I'm not trying to pour cold water on everything just to put things in some perspective.



Which spare Voyagers would these be?

Bearing in mind that a four coach Voyager would have fewer seats than a three coach 170, wouldn't it be easier to get some more 170s diverted to the HML (when they are replaced on the Central Belt routes due to EGIP)?

Fair enough, remember this doesnt have to be a hugely expensive process, even an early Monday only "Death Train" special at say 0600 for weekenders would be a start! (With a late Saturday balancing run perhaps?)
Even daily we're only talking say one extra return working.
The extra capacity would be the next step, you're probably right about using 170s rather than another type so as not to complicate maintainence etc.
After that if numbers are up then modest infrastructure improvements better rolling stock and so on.
Organic growth rather than big expensive "projects" with grandstanding govt ministers etc!

 

[scotsman]

Which spare Voyagers would these be?

Bearing in mind that a four coach Voyager would have fewer seats than a three coach 170, wouldn't it be easier to get some more 170s diverted to the HML (when they are replaced on the Central Belt routes due to EGIP)?

Bearing in mind that he was a Government minister, it's fair to say he doesn't have a clue. He may have meant Super Voyagers, he implied that Sprinters could be swapped when their lease is due for renewal

 

[route:oxford]

Any service arriving in Glasgow at nine in the morning ought to be busy. The question is, would it be busy enough at the Inverness end?

As long as the service "breaks even" either financially or socially - that is all that should really matter.

 

[D1009]

No-one appears to have made the point that both routes into Edinburgh from the east are already full of trains, to run an addiitonal fast train from Inverness via either, you would have to withdraw several others to fit it in. How well would that go down with the residents of Linlithgow or Inverkeithing ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry I meant the west !!

 

[IanXC]

Bearing in mind that he was a Government minister, it's fair to say he doesn't have a clue. He may have meant Super Voyagers, he implied that Sprinters could be swapped when their lease is due for renewal

Which I suppose is true in principle. Short of Cross Country or Midland Main Line electrification, or IEP bimode for one of those routes I can't see how any Voyagers/Meridians would be available either.

 

[kylemore]

No-one appears to have made the point that both routes into Edinburgh from the east are already full of trains, to run an addiitonal fast train from Inverness via either, you would have to withdraw several others to fit it in. How well would that go down with the residents of Linlithgow or Inverkeithing ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry I meant the west !!

Oh I'm sure they could fit another one in if they really tried!

 

[Bodie]

I'm not a Luddite nor do I feel am particularly negative. My issue is instead with the fact that there are other projects around that would cost less and achieve more. And lets face it levelling a mountain or putting a tunnel through the middle of it (something which the Victorians could do if you look at some of the tunnels they made) would cost a massive amount of money.

Forgive me, I'm not much of a pragmatist. I see the more sensible people in this thread talk in more realistic terms. As regards to how this country works (or doesn't) today. Indeed it would be a great deal of money.

When I speak of Luddite's and nay sayers I speak of those who have no imagination, drive or will to keep advancing the human race. The post war optimism died out very soon. This is a railway forum, I won't go into who killed it.

Suffice to say that a totally new Highland Super Mainline can and should be reality.
No little tweak here or tweak there but something to being pride back to this once great country.

Bodie

 

[tbtc]

When I speak of Luddite's and nay sayers I speak of those who have no imagination, drive or will to keep advancing the human race

Suffice to say that a totally new Highland Super Mainline can and should be reality

I think that humanity would be doomed under me then as it sounds like a huge waste of money

 

[D1009]

No, we need visionaries as well as pragmatists. If you're going to have a hugely developed Highland main line you will need something akin to HS1 in the Central belt, and with Scottish independence who knows what could happen !

 

[Bodie]

No, we need visionaries as well as pragmatists. If you're going to have a hugely developed Highland main line you will need something akin to HS1 in the Central belt, and with Scottish independence who knows what could happen !

Mr Salmond is one of the hug a tree brigade. The only thing I predict if there is Scottish independence is three boom area's - Flag maker's, Pen-pushers and Candle maker's.

The very last thing we would see is any engineering feats

Bodie

 

[Blindtraveler]

ok time for my few pennys worth.

3irst on pathing into EDB/GLQ for an early HML Express, look what the likes of Southern do with splits/joins and SDO. Theres nothing to say the highland unit couldnt run to say falkirk or Markinch and be attached to a commuter remi fast or express working with pax for intermediate stops changing/moving to the front/reer of the train.

2nd on those advocating the coaches, I have to say (and this has nothing what so ever to do with my bus pass here)
that citylink or megabus to the highlands is often far faster and more cumfortable with the oldest coaches being only 4 years old. My last 2 southbounds have run a good 20 mins early meaning just over a 3 hour journey. the thought after an experience like that of a gutless crouded 170 or an unrefurbed but thankfully less gutless 158 up the HML makes me shudder these days.

A decent train that doesnt sound like its dying with enough cumfy seats and a buffet with hot food wil tempt me back but with coaches getting better and journeys being more reliable I am sticking to the A9.

 

[sprinterguy]

2nd on those advocating the coaches, I have to say (and this has nothing what so ever to do with my bus pass here)
that citylink or megabus to the highlands is often far faster and more cumfortable with the oldest coaches being only 4 years old. My last 2 southbounds have run a good 20 mins early meaning just over a 3 hour journey. the thought after an experience like that of a gutless crouded 170 or an unrefurbed but thankfully less gutless 158 up the HML makes me shudder these days.

I agree that the Citylink coaches are both comfortable and modern, and the services that shadow the West Highland and Kyle lines are also a bit faster than the trains they compete against. The coaches are also more useful if you are travelling to or from anywhere away from the sparse rail network in the Highlands, as well as often being cheaper.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which spare Voyagers would these be?

Bearing in mind that a four coach Voyager would have fewer seats than a three coach 170, wouldn't it be easier to get some more 170s diverted to the HML (when they are replaced on the Central Belt routes due to EGIP)?

It's nothing more than fanciful wishful thinking, but if Crosscountry received some decent length, 8 carriage, bi-mode IEP train sets then Scotrail could gain Crosscountrys' 23 five carriage 221s. If tilt systems could be fitted to the Highland Main Line and the Aberdeen route then that would help to reduce journey times somewhat, and the more substantial power of a 221 over a 170 would probably result in faster station to station times anyway through faster acceleration. It's probably more attainable than a Highland Super Mainline, at any rate.

 

[D1009]

ok time for my few pennys worth.

My last 2 southbounds have run a good 20 mins early meaning just over a 3 hour journey.

A decent train that doesnt sound like its dying with enough cumfy seats and a buffet with hot food wil tempt me back but with coaches getting better and journeys being more reliable I am sticking to the A9.

If that's the case there can't be that much traffic congestion on it, but if it's anything like anywhere else that will soon change. So will a Scottish government invest in the A9 or the railway ?

 

[route:oxford]

If that's the case there can't be that much traffic congestion on it, but if it's anything like anywhere else that will soon change. So will a Scottish government invest in the A9 or the railway ?

Which will the Scottish government invest in?

That's straightforward. They'll take the available "pot" and split it evenly in a ratio that matches the number of deaths on the A9 in the last 10 years between the Keir Roundabout and Inverness and between Dunblane Railway Station and Inverness.