Rail Replacement Bus Services

[Blinder]

Does anyone know if "connecting trains" are supposed to wait for the "connecting bus" when Engineering works are in operation?

Yesterday the "connecting train" at Sittingbourne to St Pancas pulled out of the station as the "connecting bus" from Faversham pulled into the car park. When asking the operative on the gates as to why it had gone before the connection had arrived the reply was "it's not our fault you were late". Thereby an hour wait for the next service to St Pancras.

Still awaiting an acknowledgement from Southeastern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This kind of attitude problem really needs stamping out, and it does seem more prevalent south of the Thames (e.g. the attitude problem of GTR barrier staff at Victoria, or the stand-up argument I once witnessed between a DOO driver and a member of platform staff about who was responsible for a wheelchair rather than one of them just getting on with it[1]). If the answer is "I'm really sorry you feel like that, but because of line capacity we can't hold the train - perhaps we should feed back that next time the bus timetable needs adjusting[2]?", how about saying that politely?

[1] It was properly vitriolic - they were squaring up to each other and I genuinely thought one was going to throw a punch. Never seen anything like that north of the Thames.

[2] And management need to listen to such reports.

 

[jamesst]

The problem can be replacement bus timetables are generally scheduled so that the bus does meet the train but due to a wide variety of factors get bus can run late. The problem being the train will still have to depart on time in order to keep its path further down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. But the correct answer to that is not "not my fault, mate", it's a proactive explanation and the encouragement to claim Delay Repay, perhaps even handing over a form if one is to hand.

Some staff clearly should not be in any customer facing role[1] - and it does seem to be the case that a good many such staff are to be found manning barriers in the area covered by Southern and Southeastern, for some reason.

[1] Imagine it was a restaurant and they were declining to allow a customer to take their table because the customer was too late and another booking would be affected. Even if it was totally the customer's fault and there was no way they could be accommodated, a member of front of house staff displaying that kind of attitude would rightly get the sack.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Southeastern seem to have a particular problem with this. We've had an awful lot of replacement bus services on the Chatham Main Line over the last couple of years, and buses failing to connect with trains are all too common.

I've seen platform staff claim that the particular bus was never meant to connect with the particular train - and say "Well then National Rail Enquiries is wrong" when shown bits of paper which would suggest otherwise.

And while I can accept that the train must (usually) leave at the booked time even if the bus hasn't arrived, I cannot really accept the reverse. Even so, I've seen a replacement bus leave Meopham empty while the passengers from a train which had arrived a few minutes late were on the footbridge.

All the usual replacement bus problems have arisen at some point too - scarcely roadworthy buses, drivers who don't know the way, passengers smoking because there is no one willing or able to tell them not to, and so on. Southeastern really does need to sort its replacement bus provision out.

While I was no great fan of the former First Capital Connect, it used to put RPIs on replacement bus services, and that did prevent some issues arising. I've never seen this on Southeastern; is there any good reason not to do it?

 

[Roast Veg]

When replacement buses are in force on the Hastings line (as they often are at weekends), Southeastern will usually hire from the large Hams Travel coach depot at Flimwell. They do not put any RPIs on the coaches, however they seem to be timetabled to leave and arrive exactly half way between services at intermediate destinations. This means that you sit on a standing coach for some time at one end, and wait for a train at the other. It increases the journey time by a whole extra 30 minutes all told, but I've never felt angry that there wasn't enough time to get between modes of transport during this time.

 

[Robertj21a]

Southeastern seem to have a particular problem with this. We've had an awful lot of replacement bus services on the Chatham Main Line over the last couple of years, and buses failing to connect with trains are all too common.

I've seen platform staff claim that the particular bus was never meant to connect with the particular train - and say "Well then National Rail Enquiries is wrong" when shown bits of paper which would suggest otherwise.

And while I can accept that the train must (usually) leave at the booked time even if the bus hasn't arrived, I cannot really accept the reverse. Even so, I've seen a replacement bus leave Meopham empty while the passengers from a train which had arrived a few minutes late were on the footbridge.

All the usual replacement bus problems have arisen at some point too - scarcely roadworthy buses, drivers who don't know the way, passengers smoking because there is no one willing or able to tell them not to, and so on. Southeastern really does need to sort its replacement bus provision out.

While I was no great fan of the former First Capital Connect, it used to put RPIs on replacement bus services, and that did prevent some issues arising. I've never seen this on Southeastern; is there any good reason not to do it?

All down to cost. They need to stop treating Rail Replacement buses as something they really can't be bothered about.

 

[2HAP]

When replacement buses are in force on the Hastings line

If travelling between Tonbridge and Hastings, simply take advantage of the "any permitted" route marked on your ticket and go via Ashford. :grin:

 

[joncombe]

This kind of attitude problem really needs stamping out, and it does seem more prevalent south of the Thames

I experienced similar when a rail replacement bus from Farnham to Farnborough got delayed and so missed the connection at Farnborough which similar to the first post, was not held. Having said that given the bus served Aldershot and Ash Vale first I could not work out why they didn't operate the replacement bus to Woking rather than Farnborough given the service from there to London is much more frequent and this mirrors the route of the train (Alton line trains do not to go to Farnborough so I'm not sure why the replacement bus does).

 

[WelshBluebird]

My experience has been pretty poor, mostly on the Newport - Bristol corridor and the South Wales valley lines. Certainly most of the time there is no coordination between replacement bus and train, and especially the valleys where Sunday services are awful, you can easily end up just missing the connecting train and then ending up having to wait 2 hours!

Although I will give credit to ATW for a couple of weeks ago. A combination of bad traffic and poor planning (ATW not giving enough time for the bus to actually do the journey stopping at all stops) meant that the replacement bus i was on was running about 15 minutes late and was going to arrive at the place I needed to change onto a train 5 minutes after the train was due to leave. I tweeted ATW and they organised the train to be held until we made it on. Certainly different to most of my previous experiences.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Generally from an operational perspective a rail-replacement bus will (in theory) be held to await it's delayed inbound train connection. The reverse is rarely if ever possible; holding a train to await a delayed inbound bus will cause far more problems further along.

Obviously there is an element of common sense to be applied, it would be moronic to send the train empty on the Heart of Wales line if the bus is running late with a 4-5 hr wait for the next train!

With regards over-ambitious running times, this is entirely down to poor planning by the TOC. Network Rail might manage the master timetable and hold the SRT database including all bus timings but they simply input the times specified by the operator who should maintain their own databases of running times etc and adjust them as necessary for prevailing road conditions, time of day etc.
In my experience XC are the worst for over ambitious timings; Exeter SD to Newton Abbot in 25 mins? Get real, the train does it in 20!

 

[30909]

I experienced similar when a rail replacement bus from Farnham to Farnborough got delayed and so missed the connection at Farnborough which similar to the first post, was not held. Having said that given the bus served Aldershot and Ash Vale first I could not work out why they didn't operate the replacement bus to Woking rather than Farnborough given the service from there to London is much more frequent and this mirrors the route of the train (Alton line trains do not to go to Farnborough so I'm not sure why the replacement bus does).

Could it be that its is closer to Farnborough Main; Aldershot and Ash Vale stations are easily reached and some of the journey can be done on the A331 a modern dual carriageway. Approx. 10 Miles and 20 minutes. Trains from Farnborough Main will serve passengers to-from Brookwood too.

To Woking via Aldershot, Ash Vale and Bookwood is about 17 miles and would take almost 60 minutes. Seems to me that SWT have sorted that one out quite well.

 

[Darandio]

We had a similar situation last year after cable theft at Dinsdale, all services were stopped between Darlington and Middlesbrough. We arrived at Darlington pretty much immediately after it happened and had to wait 55 minutes for the replacement coach to Middlesbrough, after which they said a service would be there to take us onwards to Redcar and Saltburn. At that time there was understandably no ETA on when services would resume.

Cue arrival at Middlesbrough after a journey round the back roads to every station, everyone heads upstairs and the train departs pretty much empty with none of us on it. Someone asks why it didn't wait, they said they had no idea! I'm pretty certain it had nothing to do with paths, it was the only unit that side of Middlesbrough at the time and would have had the 10 minute or so turnaround at Saltburn.

Cue another 50 minute wait at Middlesbrough while they figured out what to do next. Suddenly, a unit arrives from the Darlington direction without warning, turns out the line had re-opened and this one was now running normally! We jump on and go home.

So we arrived in Redcar over 3 hours after we should have left Darlington, on a service that it turns out we could have just waited for! Hindsight is always wonderful, but a couple of coffees at Darlington would have been much better than a ramble round the backwaters.

 

[Mag_seven]

Special attention should be paid to RBB's connecting into a low frequency train service. While I appreciate that the connecting service cannot be held indefinitely, having a staff member on the bus to ring the station with an ETA should avoid the situation of the bus arriving just in time to see the tail lights of the connecting rail service disappear off the end of the platform.

 

[Robertj21a]

Special attention should be paid to RBB's connecting into a low frequency train service. While I appreciate that the connecting service cannot be held indefinitely, having a staff member on the bus to ring the station with an ETA should avoid the situation of the bus arriving just in time to see the tail lights of the connecting rail service disappear off the end of the platform.

Whose staff member- railway ?

 

[313103]

Special attention should be paid to RBB's connecting into a low frequency train service. While I appreciate that the connecting service cannot be held indefinitely, having a staff member on the bus to ring the station with an ETA should avoid the situation of the bus arriving just in time to see the tail lights of the connecting rail service disappear off the end of the platform.

The train company could not possibly have this amount of staff, let alone any spare staff going around sitting on rail replacement buses just incase it might miss a connecting train.

Also and to make it even more confusing you may have different train operating companies using different bus companies from one shared station to the other shared station as is often the case when the South Wales Main Line is closed for engineering works. That also reflects frequency levels as well.

Also what does someone consider a low frequency train service? Is it based on what the normal train service is ? Is it based on the amended train service ? Is it based on location ?

 

[Mag_seven]

Whose staff member- railway ?

Why not? I was on a RRB once and there was a member of TOC staff on board with a mobile phone - he also checked and issued tickets!

 

[Robertj21a]

Why not? I was on a RRB once and there was a member of TOC staff on board with a mobile phone - he also checked and issued tickets!

Fine, as long as the TOC has enough staff for all the buses in use. Otherwise, try to negotiate with the bus/coach company for their driver to phone in with an ETA.

 

[Mollman]

Fine, as long as the TOC has enough staff for all the buses in use. Otherwise, try to negotiate with the bus/coach company for their driver to phone in with an ETA.

We used to encourage drivers to phone when possible (e.g. the station before) however there was sometimes an issue with communication to stations like Middlesbrough where it was run by another TOC.

 

[Blinder]

Special attention should be paid to RBB's connecting into a low frequency train service. While I appreciate that the connecting service cannot be held indefinitely, having a staff member on the bus to ring the station with an ETA should avoid the situation of the bus arriving just in time to see the tail lights of the connecting rail service disappear off the end of the platform.

There was a member of staff "dispatching" buses from Faversham and, as you say could have rung Sittingbourne to tell them of departures. The bus left Faversham at the booked time as shown on SET timetables. At Sittingbourne, the 4 members of staff were waiting "inside the barriers".. Well it was raining!!!, if one was outside they could have done their job efficiently (and kept dry) and not caused further complaints..

Still waiting for the SET reply....

 

[MedwayValiant]

At Sittingbourne, the 4 members of staff were waiting "inside the barriers".. Well it was raining!!!

This is a bugbear of mine at Rochester. At the old Rochester station, replacement buses used to come into the station forecourt and there was always a member of station staff on the forecourt to assist passengers.

At the new station, no such matter. The up bus stop is badly located across the road from the station, and I have never seen any station staff trouble to go there. Just one (of several) reasons why the new station is inferior to the old one.

Meopham is even worse. It would cost money, but shouldn't it be a rule that there are railway staff present at any station which is the interface between trains and buses? If that means taking them from another station, so be it.

At Meopham there often aren't - even the ticket office is often closed, meaning that interfacing passengers must all negotiate the very narrow night exit.

 

[weastebusdepot]

We used to encourage drivers to phone when possible (e.g. the station before) however there was sometimes an issue with communication to stations like Middlesbrough where it was run by another TOC.

All TOCs have a contract with an external company to provide their road transport, although in the cases where the TOC is also a bus operator it may be another division of the same larger company. I don't know if things are different in the south, but elsewhere with planned engineering work it would be normal for the company contracted to provide the rail replacement services to have at least one co-ordinator positioned at stations where there is an intended switch between bus and train.

The rail replacement providers have a control room much the same as the TOCs and bus/coach drivers must phone and book on at the start of their shifts. Co-ordinators have a list of contacts for each other, so if an expected bus didn't appear at the expected time, it would be normal to phone to co-ordinator at the previous station to find out if it left them on time, or to phone the control room to get in touch with the driver and find out if there is an issue. Of course not all drivers have handsfree devices, and might not be at a place where they can safely make or receive a call.

Generally there is more chance of holding a bus to wait for a late train than holding a train to wait for a late bus, and ultimately the platform staff (at a staffed station) or the train driver/conductor have the final say. From stories I've recently been told in such situations, being able to tell the conductor "the bus is running late but I can see it coming in the distance" is more likely to make them wait than "the bus is running late, we don't know how far away it is".

 

[boxy321]

I'm lucky to have never had to get an RRB.

How many coaches/buses do they order if something like a busy 11 car pendolino needs replacing? That's a lot of people.

 

[extendedpaul]

Does anyone know if "connecting trains" are supposed to wait for the "connecting bus" when Engineering works are in operation?

Yesterday the "connecting train" at Sittingbourne to St Pancas pulled out of the station as the "connecting bus" from Faversham pulled into the car park. When asking the operative on the gates as to why it had gone before the connection had arrived the reply was "it's not our fault you were late". Thereby an hour wait for the next service to St Pancras.

Still awaiting an acknowledgement from Southeastern.

Ensure you claim Delay Reply, hopefully the train an hour later arrived at St Pancras at least one minute late ...

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm lucky to have never had to get an RRB.

Lucky you.
At my local station the bus can't even get to it, so we have to walk half a mile to the only place it can stop!

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm lucky to have never had to get an RRB.

How many coaches/buses do they order if something like a busy 11 car pendolino needs replacing? That's a lot of people.

Divide the number of expected passengers by, say, 45 for a coach or 65 for a double deck bus and you won't be far out.

 

[boxy321]

Divide the number of expected passengers by, say, 45 for a coach or 65 for a double deck bus and you won't be far out.

That's how many I would expect. Is that what happens in practice though?

 

[Robertj21a]

That's how many I would expect. Is that what happens in practice though?

Depends on how efficient the TOC is (or how much they're prepared to pay).

 

[Mollman]

All TOCs have a contract with an external company to provide their road transport, although in the cases where the TOC is also a bus operator it may be another division of the same larger company. I don't know if things are different in the south, but elsewhere with planned engineering work it would be normal for the company contracted to provide the rail replacement services to have at least one co-ordinator positioned at stations where there is an intended switch between bus and train.

The rail replacement providers have a control room much the same as the TOCs and bus/coach drivers must phone and book on at the start of their shifts. Co-ordinators have a list of contacts for each other, so if an expected bus didn't appear at the expected time, it would be normal to phone to co-ordinator at the previous station to find out if it left them on time, or to phone the control room to get in touch with the driver and find out if there is an issue. Of course not all drivers have handsfree devices, and might not be at a place where they can safely make or receive a call.

Generally there is more chance of holding a bus to wait for a late train than holding a train to wait for a late bus, and ultimately the platform staff (at a staffed station) or the train driver/conductor have the final say. From stories I've recently been told in such situations, being able to tell the conductor "the bus is running late but I can see it coming in the distance" is more likely to make them wait than "the bus is running late, we don't know how far away it is".

For emergency work it was very rare to have a coordinator out unless it was going to be an all day job (over running engineering works and land slips for example).

 

[sheff1]

The rail replacement providers have a control room much the same as the TOCs and bus/coach drivers must phone and book on at the start of their shifts. Co-ordinators have a list of contacts for each other, so if an expected bus didn't appear at the expected time, it would be normal to phone to co-ordinator at the previous station to find out if it left them on time, or to phone the control room to get in touch with the driver and find out if there is an issue.

This sounds good but does not correspond with the reality I encountered at Newquay one Sunday last year.

I went for the bus replacement scheduled for around 1100, arriving at the station about 30 mins beforehand. The bus was there but no GWR staff. Arriving passengers (worried about connections) asked what time the bus was leaving and the driver said he didn't know, he had just been told to go there and take people to St Austell. He got on the radio to someone who told him they didn't know either and advised him to ask the railway staff. As there weren't any he went over into the privately run station buffet.

On his return he was most put out that "those useless buggers" couldn't help and got back on the radio who, this time, told him to ring St Austell station but were unable to provide a contact number. Getting increasingly cheesed off, and with more people asking about connections, he decided to set off a good 10 mins before the advertised train departure time.

As the next departure was 4 hours away, I have always wondered what happened to any intending passengers arriving at Newquay after the bus had left.