Rail strikes discussion

[ar10642]

Part of the reason for people having a 'decent state pension' as you suggest was that they were expected to die around 5 years after they retired on average. Increased life expectancy has come at a cost. The NHS keeps people alive much longer now. I do take issue with that as living to be 100 is just about the last thing I want. I want to depart this earth when I am unable to function reasonably and enjoy myself. Health and safety was quite poor years ago too - it's ramped up the cost of everything. Separate areas for men and women in hospital cost a lot of money and reduced capacity. Less than 10% went to university when I was young so it was free and affordable, now its around 45% go to university and they have to pay for it. Going to university isn't the right thing for many people, there aren't that many graduate careers, so a better idea is apprenticeships, but few employers are really interested as there is freedom for their apprentice to sod off as soon as they have completed trading to a company which didn't have to pay for the training.

I don't know what job you do on railways, but one route is to upskill yourself and get some qualifications, trust me it's more effective than self pity.

I'm not coming at this from a self pity angle, my decisions are mine alone. However when you hear that pensions are going up 10% on top of the NI hikes it turned me from being vocally against these strikes to having some sympathy with them.

All in it together is it?

 

[Shrop]

This point has been made before but it's probably worth repeating, given the amount of frankly stupid comments about the state pension. It seems that those making derogatory comments about pensioners believe that all pensioners have had a working life in the pensions industry, they're invariably Tory voters, and they're now getting a huge state pension, possibly bigger than any rail worker's salary, which has just been hiked up by a massive further amount. Maybe you believe there's a big Pensions Union which has been fighting for the recent increase, and lots of pensioners have been out on strike, and picketing in order to achieve this rise? Your points are as crazy as that.

The question is this. What planet are you on?

 

[D854_Tiger]

Just to clarify, I was speculating at to what the RMT's next move might be, but I am not part of this dispute and do not work on the railways.

However I also hope they get a reasonable settlement - sadly that's not looking likely in the short term.

In a previous life, I was a trade union rep.

A District Officer once told me that partial strikes are never a very good idea as they send a signal to management that you might not have the stomach for a proper fight i.e an all out strike.

Potentially a sign of weakness up front,

I witnessed that bluff being called, a management response to an overtime ban was met with work normally or we'll lock you out, which they promptly did.

When the dispute was then widened, all the previously supportive (cheering them on) departments that hadn't been on strike promptly backed down on behalf of their locked out colleagues and accepted the management pay offer.

The fallout wasn't pretty,

 

[LowLevel]

Well, I would like to say as someone who is generally opposed to strike action is that the conduct of the Government and press has in fact galvanised me in favour of my union's action. I did not vote yes in the ballot and if it were held again tomorrow it would most definitely be yes this time.

What I would like to say however is ignoring all standard commentary on things like contingency staff I have been generally impressed with the conduct of both the striking staff and managers of all grades, from local to director level - in the vast majority of cases both have been totally respectful of the position of others which has been refreshing to see in an industrial dispute.

 

[baz962]

Well, I would like to say as someone who is generally opposed to strike action is that the conduct of the Government and press has in fact galvanised me in favour of my union's action. I did not vote yes in the ballot and if it were held again tomorrow it would most definitely be yes this time.

What I would like to say however is ignoring all standard commentary on things like contingency staff I have been generally impressed with the conduct of both the striking staff and managers of all grades, from local to director level - in the vast majority of cases both have been totally respectful of the position of others which has been refreshing to see in an industrial dispute.

I have to say my contingency guards were excellent the other day. Signalling was a bit poor , but I guess they were short staffed.

 

[D854_Tiger]

Where would the rail strike be ranked in a list of Government priorities, most of which they're already not handling very well.

Pretty high, they need to get a grip on inflation.

Previous history (Margret Thatcher) tells us the only way you can do that is to keep pay rises down, in other words, real world wage cuts.

We're all going to have to pay for Covid and the war, someone has to.

Of course, there is one solution to having higher wages, productivity improvement, but I'm in no position to understand what scope there is for that.

I know, first hand, the government are working very hard to get energy bills back down the biggest driver for all this inflation.

The good news is oil prices are now falling, there isn't really a gas supply problem (a storage problem maybe) so expect the gas price market to calm down soon, despite the war.

Anyway not all bad news, yesterday, I had a zero gas bill in fact they owe me 36 quid, thanks to Covid I've been on (over) estimated meter readings, over £550 last time guess the gas price hasn't quite gone up that bad.

 

[Ivor]

This point has been made before but it's probably worth repeating, given the amount of frankly stupid comments about the state pension. It seems that those making derogatory comments about pensioners believe that all pensioners have had a working life in the pensions industry, they're invariably Tory voters, and they're now getting a huge state pension, possibly bigger than any rail worker's salary, which has just been hiked up by a massive further amount. Maybe you believe there's a big Pensions Union which has been fighting for the recent increase, and lots of pensioners have been out on strike, and picketing in order to achieve this rise? Your points are as crazy as that.

The question is this. What planet are you on?

This……….the fact that back in the day when I started work in 1968 there were no perks as a company pension for most (they did exist somewhere) plus living in London didn’t get a mortgage with both of us employed until in my mid 30s & I wasn’t alone.

I’ll be corrected but I remember it was literally only Civil Service employees maybe Post Office employees, emergency services that offered a company pension. You got a salary….end of.

Also our tax & NI went to many things like the war debt, NHS, disability to those that needed etc & yes the Government Pension of pensioners of that time & so the wheel turns through the years just like it always did.

I appreciate this thread has gone a bit off topic at times but comparisons keep being made re pension increases & salary increases, the lap of luxury currently being enjoyed, this is one old git who isn’t in that category along with millions of others.

 

[SynthD]

You could point that stick in so many different directions :/

What does that mean?

The question is this. What planet are you on?

The one where 10% is higher than what any public sector employee gets, by an excessive margin. It’s extremely relevant when the government say what can and can’t be afforded.

 

[ar10642]

This point has been made before but it's probably worth repeating, given the amount of frankly stupid comments about the state pension. It seems that those making derogatory comments about pensioners believe that all pensioners have had a working life in the pensions industry, they're invariably Tory voters, and they're now getting a huge state pension, possibly bigger than any rail worker's salary, which has just been hiked up by a massive further amount. Maybe you believe there's a big Pensions Union which has been fighting for the recent increase, and lots of pensioners have been out on strike, and picketing in order to achieve this rise? Your points are as crazy as that.

The question is this. What planet are you on?

I mean nobody's saying any of that but enjoy smashing down that giant straw man I guess.

 

[Signal_Box]

This thread really does capture modern Britain today.

Full of hate, divison, jealousy and if I can’t it, neither can you attitudes.

Other threads have been shut down after far less, it really sickening how people, working people are attacking each other.

I’m truly ashamed, and embarrassed to be one of the working class right now if this is how we treat each other.

 

[Goldfish62]

This thread really does capture modern Britain today.

Full of hate, divison, jealousy and if I can’t it, neither can you attitudes.

Other threads have been shut down after far less, it really sickening how people, working people are attacking each other.

I’m truly ashamed, and embarrassed to be one of the working class right now if this is how we treat each other.

Yep.

 

[Efini92]

This……….the fact that back in the day when I started work in 1968 there were no perks as a company pension for most (they did exist somewhere) plus living in London didn’t get a mortgage with both of us employed until in my mid 30s & I wasn’t alone.

I’ll be corrected but I remember it was literally only Civil Service employees maybe Post Office employees, emergency services that offered a company pension. You got a salary….end of.

Also our tax & NI went to many things like the war debt, NHS, disability to those that needed etc & yes the Government Pension of pensioners of that time & so the wheel turns through the years just like it always did.

I appreciate this thread has gone a bit off topic at times but comparisons keep being made re pension increases & salary increases, the lap of luxury currently being enjoyed, this is one old git who isn’t in that category along with millions of others.

I think all local authority services also had one. Certainly bus drivers did.

 

[ar10642]

This thread really does capture modern Britain today.

Full of hate, divison, jealousy and if I can’t it, neither can you attitudes.

Other threads have been shut down after far less, it really sickening how people, working people are attacking each other.

I’m truly ashamed, and embarrassed to be one of the working class right now if this is how we treat each other.

I guess that's what happens when one particular group is prioritised at the expense of all others because of how they vote.

I suppose a lot of this is pointed at me. I'll go if the mods want me to, there doesn't appear to be a way to delete my account though.

 

[westv]

This thread really does capture modern Britain today.

Full of hate, divison, jealousy and if I can’t it, neither can you attitudes.

Other threads have been shut down after far less, it really sickening how people, working people are attacking each other.

I’m truly ashamed, and embarrassed to be one of the working class right now if this is how we treat each other.

I dont agree at all. I applaud the team for allowing this thread to continue. Some views I agree with and some. That is the nature of debate.

 

[Shrop]

The one where 10% is higher than what any public sector employee gets, by an excessive margin. It’s extremely relevant when the government say what can and can’t be afforded.

So the state pension is set to increase by around £800 per year, and for some people it's the only pension they'll have. A couple of questions for you :-

1. Have you worked out what percentage of your salary is this £800 that you having so much problem with?

2. Will you have you the luxury of a work pension for when you retire?

3. Will you be handing your own state pension back to Government or to charity since you seem to despise it so much?

 

[moleman212]

That's very naive. About 90% of the country never use trains, so any impact on the government will always be minimal. Boris could well gain votes from many of the public fed up with unions.

Well lets face it...not many Jack Harpers will vote for the Tories. Breaking the Unions could well be a vote winner among the wider public...The call by the RMT for the government to join in talks seems desperate...

What do you think Lynch might squeeze out of all this? Retention of 35 hour week? 7% pay rise? Busier ticket offices to remain open? Sundays and pensions not being touched?

7% pay rise? The public will feel even more acrimonious then...

Bothering to actually vote is a start! Too many of the younger generation choosing not to vote was one of the causes of the BREXIT referendum result.

The RMT recommended people to vote for Brexit...

 

[winks]

35hr week will go. Perhaps rentention of some main ticket offices. In terms of pay rise percentage it’s anyones guess but it will be 5 % or above if a deal is to be agreed!

 

[Wolfie]

I guess that's what happens when one particular group is prioritised at the expense of all others because of how they vote.

I suppose a lot of this is pointed at me. I'll go if the mods want me to, there doesn't appear to be a way to delete my account though.

I don't think that anyone is asking you to go or indeed stop posting. You might, if you could post with a little less vitriol, gain more traction.

I'm sure that there are some on here who might say, perhaps rightly, that at times l should do so myself.

 

[Thermal]

Well lets face it...not many Jack Harpers will vote for the Tories. Breaking the Unions could well be a vote winner among the wider public...The call by the RMT for the government to join in talks seems desperate...

They are asking for the government to join as there are no talks without them. The government have tied the TOC's & Network Rail's hands. They have effectively said to them, this and this only is what you can offer. There will be no movement until the government decides there is movement.

7% pay rise? The public will feel even more acrimonious then...

At the risk of sounding like a parrot, in the majority of cases, this is multi year pay request. Since my last pay rise, the PAYE median increase (i.e. the average member of the public) has had increases totaling 15%. How can the public then be annoyed at someone else asking for less than half of the increase that they have had, especially when they are having to accept worse terms and conditions to get it?

 

[Horizon22]

Part of the reason for people having a 'decent state pension' as you suggest was that they were expected to die around 5 years after they retired on average. Increased life expectancy has come at a cost. The NHS keeps people alive much longer now. I do take issue with that as living to be 100 is just about the last thing I want. I want to depart this earth when I am unable to function reasonably and enjoy myself. Health and safety was quite poor years ago too - it's ramped up the cost of everything. Separate areas for men and women in hospital cost a lot of money and reduced capacity. Less than 10% went to university when I was young so it was free and affordable, now its around 45% go to university and they have to pay for it. Going to university isn't the right thing for many people, there aren't that many graduate careers, so a better idea is apprenticeships, but few employers are really interested as there is freedom for their apprentice to sod off as soon as they have completed trading to a company which didn't have to pay for the training.

I don't know what job you do on railways, but one route is to upskill yourself and get some qualifications, trust me it's more effective than self pity.

I would agree with you that extending life is but an arbitary figure if it is not a good quality of life. Health & Safety has saved countless lives, so that and "separate areas for men and women" are slightly weird angles for you to take - sounds like you have a specific agenda.

Young people overall are increasingly going to university but you've in fact actually pointed out yet another generational divide between this one and the previous one - previously it was all paid for, now its tens of thousands of pounds of student loan which - whilst not debt in the true form - is continually paid far into people's 30s and is again money that could be spent on buying a house / saving for a deposit.

Also, I think you are referring to someone else with regards to "upskilling" and "self-pity" (I'm quite happy in my professional railway role thanks); I simply suggested that you maybe taking a slightly blinkered view with regards to the average state of affairs of the average young person in this country compared to their parents or grandparents generation.

 

[SynthD]

So the state pension is set to increase by around £800 per year, and for some people it's the only pension they'll have. A couple of questions for you :-

1. Have you worked out what percentage of your salary is this £800 that you having so much problem with?

2. Will you have you the luxury of a work pension for when you retire?

3. Will you be handing your own state pension back to Government or to charity since you seem to despise it so much?

1. Done. What's the relevance of that to my question that wasn't answered?
2. Yes. Ditto.
3. Where did you get that idea? Re read my comment to understand it better and see the question I asked. It's not personal, it's about government claims of affordability.

 

[Wolfie]

I would agree with you that extending life is but an arbitary figure if it is not a good quality of life. Health & Safety has saved countless lives, so that and "separate areas for men and women" are slightly weird angles for you to take - sounds like you have a specific agenda.

Young people overall are increasingly going to university but you've in fact actually pointed out yet another generational divide between this one and the previous one - previously it was all paid for, now its tens of thousands of pounds of student loan which - whilst not debt in the true form - is continually paid far into people's 30s and is again money that could be spent on buying a house / saving for a deposit.

Also, I think you are referring to someone else with regards to "upskilling" and "self-pity" (I'm quite happy in my professional railway role thanks); I simply suggested that you maybe taking a slightly blinkered view with regards to the average state of affairs of the average young person in this country compared to their parents or grandparents generation.

Massively off topic but l would agree that HMG actively encouraging more kids in England to go to University then stiffing them with massive debts to do so stinks. The situation varies in the other three nations of the UK.

 

[ar10642]

I don't think that anyone is asking you to go or indeed stop posting. You might, if you could post with a little less vitriol, gain more traction.

You're probably right there. I should probably cool off for 10 mins or so before replying.

I would say that I wouldn't try go to get the thread locked if someone says something I don't like though.

 

[Wolfie]

You're probably right there. I should probably cool off for 10 mins or so before replying.

I would say that I wouldn't try go to get the thread locked if someone says something I don't like though.

It's always easier to say that to someone else than to actually do it when it's something that's got your dander up.....

 

[Kite159]

What has the PCS done recently to improve the civil service? Nothing, absolutely nothing. But that is a lot to do with the fact that it tried to play politics in the past and bring down governments, which didn't end well and cost me & my fellow members dear. The RMT and co could do well by learning from such lessons. As I have said all along, there is a right time & a wrong time to a pick fight. Talking of which...


This would be literally idiotic, yet sadly I'm sure the top table of the RMT are eying it up as a target.

Is it bad that when last year there was a last minute deal reached in Scotrail for the climate conference that I predicted the RMT would try and target the Commonwealth games over something like pay?

@Ivor A potential target could be any large international rugby matches played at Twickenham as the area wouldn't cope without the station, even Cardiff would struggle if there was no trains running

 

[bramling]

This thread really does capture modern Britain today.

Full of hate, divison, jealousy and if I can’t it, neither can you attitudes.

Other threads have been shut down after far less, it really sickening how people, working people are attacking each other.

I’m truly ashamed, and embarrassed to be one of the working class right now if this is how we treat each other.

This country is a strange place at times for sure.

So most of us would consider transport to be a pretty fundamental part of developed-world life.

In reality this means car, bus/coach and rail. Bus/coach simply isn’t attractive to most people except as a distress purchase. This leaves car and rail. Travel by car is allegedly frowned upon for numerous reasons, and certainly at times we seem to want to make life difficult for car users. Yet according to some the one remaining option, rail, is unviable to provide.

So it seems we’re all supposed to stay in our homes and only ever venture out to walk the dog (even that was frowned upon during parts of 2020!). Perhaps it’s the weather that does it, but at times these islands certainly seem to bear more chips than shoulders to rest them on. Perhaps this is why we’ve ended up with the biggest bunch of worst-rate politicians, on all sides, in living memory.

 

[WiredUp]

What do you think Lynch might squeeze out of all this? Retention of 35 hour week? 7% pay rise? Busier ticket offices to remain open? Sundays and pensions not being touched?

Retention of 35 hour week and un-touched RPS.

For TOC staff I think Sunday working will eventually be unavoidable (as non-voluntary).

 

[Urban Gateline]

I don't blame the staff at all for striking, there are Gateline Assistants at GA for example only on 16k a year, Platform staff at 2 Central London stations in the TL core only on 20k basic, it's really poor for the shift work and long hours on their feet, particularly with the cost of living going up so dramatically I believe Mick Lynch when he says some of his members are using food banks.

 

[Horizon22]

Retention of 35 hour week and un-touched RPS.

For TOC staff I think Sunday working will eventually be unavoidable (as non-voluntary).

In my view, Sundays SHOULD be touched. As someone who works in the industry and has to deal with the fallout of crew when an unpopular Sunday to work comes around, it's dire for the passengers. Of course it's not the fault of train crew (if they don't want to work. they don't have to as per their contracts) but in a a transport sector, it's mad that the option is still even viable.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So the state pension is set to increase by around £800 per year, and for some people it's the only pension they'll have. A couple of questions for you :-

1. Have you worked out what percentage of your salary is this £800 that you having so much problem with?

2. Will you have you the luxury of a work pension for when you retire?

3. Will you be handing your own state pension back to Government or to charity since you seem to despise it so much?

Pensioners, irrespective of wealth, also will receive the £400 energy payment an additional £300 winter fuel allowance on top of the existing winter fuel allowance and then if they are on pension credit a further £650. It feels govt are double counting here by paying out the triple lock which is fair enough but with CPI including all the energy costs and not discounting all the above subsidies some are going to do quite nicely. Mind you we know what the Tory demographic is.