Railcard error

[Jennifer55]

Hello all,
I'm posting on behalf of my granddaughter. She recently purchased two tickets from Cambridge to St Pancras using what she thought were two 16/24 Railcards. No problem or so she thought. The ticket machine had printed the wrong Railcard information on the tickets and stated 16/18. The ticket inspector said she had no option but to issue a penalty fare of £80. In spite of being shown she has the correct Railcards for the journey, the inspector told her she had to pay and then appeal. My granddaughter bought the tickets in good faith and is not a fare dodger. She paid. Now she's out of pocket as it's a lot of money for a student to lose, for however long it takes. It's not like she didn't pay the fare at all. (unlike the kids jumping over barriers at Wembley Park Station)
It's frustrating because she's painfully honest in all aspects. Does anyone know how long the appeal will take please? Do they really string it out for 40 working days as I've read somewhere?

 

[Snow1964]

The two types of railcards have different discounts, 16-25 is third, 16-17 is half fare.

There is no such thing as a 16-18 ticket, it's probably best if you advise the start and end station and fare paid. It will help identify what ticket you actually bought.

I am assuming if two were travelling they each had a railcard (two railcards in total), can you confirm if true and what type of railcard each was.

 

[Jennifer55]

I'm not sure which card is printed on the ticket,sorry about that. Yes they each had a Railcard as they travel down to London most weekends. They both have a 16/24 card and showed them to the ticket inspector. I'll try and see what type of ticket it was. She posted a photo to me but it's really small print.

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It states they didn't have a valid ticket. They paid their fare but the ticket machine made an error. It's not like they didn't pay at all.

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It said 16/17 on her tickets so because they don't have those,they were fined as if they didn't pay. Although they did.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could we see the whole notice please? It's really important, as there are sometimes things on it (or not on it!) which can render it unenforceable. Do you also have copies of their tickets?

That said, they purchased the wrong tickets and that's on them. The ticket machine doesn't simply issue the wrong tickets; they - intentionally or otherwise - claimed a higher discount than they were entitled to, and paid less then they were supposed to, and this is exactly the sort of circumstance a Penalty Fare would be issued in. If the inspector thought they were actually doing it intentionally, they would have reported them for prosecution instead.

 

[Jennifer55]

I don't have it. They bought their tickets in good faith,as always. The discount is the same. The ticket machine printed the wrong Railcard on the tickets. The machine printed them!! They paid the fare stated when buying their tickets with their correct Railcards. They're not thieves!! They showed the inspector their Railcards,they have them on their phones so there's no mistake there.

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Could we see the whole notice please? It's really important, as there are sometimes things on it (or not on it!) which can render it unenforceable. Do you also have copies of their tickets?

That said, they purchased the wrong tickets and that's on them. The ticket machine doesn't simply issue the wrong tickets; they - intentionally or otherwise - claimed a higher discount than they were entitled to, and paid less then they were supposed to, and this is exactly the sort of circumstance a Penalty Fare would be issued in. If the inspector thought they were actually doing it intentionally, they would have reported them for prosecution instead.

They appealed straight away, as the inspector advised them to.

 

[island]

The discount is the same.

It isn't I'm afraid. 16-17 discount is a half so single price is £15.25 and 16-25 discount is a third so single price of £20.30, compared to the £30.50 full fare. As others say, ticket machines will only sell what you ask for. They don't randomly decide to print a wrong ticket.

 

[Cuthbert]

I don't have it. They bought their tickets in good faith,as always. The discount is the same. The ticket machine printed the wrong Railcard on the tickets. The machine printed them!! They paid the fare stated when buying their tickets with their correct Railcards. They're not thieves!! They showed the inspector their Railcards,they have them on their phones so there's no mistake there.

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They appealed straight away, as the inspector advised them to.

Sorry you do not have a copy of the full notice or a copy of the tickets?
The machine will only print what is selected. It will not print a random other discount that has not been chosen.

 

[Jennifer55]

I don't. I don't live with my granddaughter. She's at uni in Cambridge. I live in Essex. She's appealed and is waiting for them to reply. It's an honest appeal. She paid the fare. It's just a question of not knowing how long it will take. The machine definitely printed the wrong Railcard information. They're not infallible.

 

[Jennifer55]

It isn't I'm afraid. 16-17 discount is a half so single price is £15.25 and 16-25 discount is a third so single price of £20.30, compared to the £30.50 full fare. As others say, ticket machines will only sell what you ask for. They don't randomly decide to print a wrong ticket.

They bought them online then collected them from the machine. Paid the fare for the 16/24 Railcard. They've appealed as they're in the right. It's not a question of 'trying to pay less' They are honest people,not thieves like I said before. This is causing her great distress and it's not nice to be accused of trying to diddle a fare for a tenner.

 

[Haywain]

They bought them online then collected them from the machine. Paid the fare for the 16/24 Railcard. They've appealed as they're in the right. It's not a question of 'trying to pay less' They are honest people,not thieves like I said before. This is causing her great distress and it's not nice to be accused of trying to diddle a fare for a tenner.

Can you post a copy of the booking confirmation, showing the ticket details, and the actual tickets? Without full information it is difficult to deal with your queries. the same applies to the Penalty Fare Notice, we need to see the full notice to be able to advise on any possible grounds for appeal - and general 'unfairness' doesn't constitute grounds for appeal.

 

[SuspectUsual]

They bought them online then collected them from the machine. Paid the fare for the 16/24 Railcard. They've appealed as they're in the right. It's not a question of 'trying to pay less' They are honest people,not thieves like I said before. This is causing her great distress and it's not nice to be accused of trying to diddle a fare for a tenner.

That’s good, because it’ll mean that they can screenshot the details of what they purchased and you can upload them to this thread. Can you do that please?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

They selected the wrong railcard when booking. A simple error. I myself almost selected, out of habit, ‘Network Railcard’ when I meant to select ‘Senior Railcard’.
The discount for tickets bought with either of those is the same, however.

Had I completed the purchase, the ticket without being able to produce the correct railcard would have been invalid, just as those in this case.

 

[Jennifer55]

They selected the wrong railcard when booking. A simple error. I myself almost selected, out of habit, ‘Network Railcard’ when I meant to select ‘Senior Railcard’.
The discount for tickets bought with either of those is the same, however.

Had I completed the purchase, the ticket without being able to produce the correct railcard would have been invalid, just as those in this case.

They paid the fare for the 16/24 Railcard. They showed the inspector their Railcards. They've appealed and sent everything off to wherever it goes.

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That’s good, because it’ll mean that they can screenshot the details of what they purchased and you can upload them to this thread. Can you do that please?

I can't. I don't live with them and they're at uni, or at work

 

[Cuthbert]

They bought them online then collected them from the machine. Paid the fare for the 16/24 Railcard. They've appealed as they're in the right. It's not a question of 'trying to pay less' They are honest people,not thieves like I said before. This is causing her great distress and it's not nice to be accused of trying to diddle a fare for a tenner.

If your daughter bought them online could you get her to send a copy of the confirmation email/receipt.
Also can your granddaughter take a photo of the whole Penalty Notice. The pros on here who will help need to see the whole thing.

The only thing they do not need to see from the Confirmation email and the notice are personal details or reference numbers.

I'm sorry if it seems harsh asking for this but the forum is full of great peoples that want to help they just need that information as stated in the Forum Rules as is posted here

 

[Spaceship323]

Has the granddaughter travelled on the wrong railcard before and just not said anything because they've "got away with it" - can she check to see if that's happened?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It seems to me that one of the key documents is the acknowledgment they received when they bought the tickets online (what @Knoodlepot has called 'the confirmation email'). As you say, that will show the fare paid, and what railcard was applied. Since we seem to be talking about paper tickets it will also show a collection code for when your granddaughter picked up the tickets. The other are the tickets which were picked up and used

Once you've got hold of a copy of the acknowledgment, check
- what railcard does that acknowledgement show? How does this compare to what is shown on the ticket? (from what you've told us, the ticket showed the 16-17 Saver as the railcard, but it's still good to check)
- what fare does it show as paid? How does this compare to what is shown on the ticket? How does it compare to the fare that would be expected? (You can check the public fare on brfares.com, which isn't an official website but takes data and makes it available to the public. It's a little technical to use but be brave - it won't charge you any money!)
- what collection code (8 characters, a mix of numbers and letters) is shown on the acknowledgement? How does this compare with what is shown on the ticket?

If everything had gone smoothly, everything I have suggested you check should be the same. But I would suggest the critical point is the collection code: if that's the same and other things are different then something has gone wrong in the computerised system. But if the collection code is different then that means that somehow your granddaughter picked up the wrong tickets - which may have been down to the machine, or the ticket office, or your granddaughter.

And while it won't be where you want to go, I would point out that if the acknowledgement shows that your granddaughter did in fact buy a ticket with a 16-17 Saver rather than a 16-25 railcard, then that does rather shift the fault to them rather than the railway. We cannot know whether this was deliberate or accidental, but the railway's view is that it is down to the customer to buy the right ticket rather than for the railway to make sure that they're asking for the right thing.

(Edited for a typo: ting > thing)

 

[MarlowDonkey]

buy a ticket with a 16-17 Saver rather than a 16-25 railcard

A key difference being that the 16-17 card is half the price of the undiscounted adult ticket, whilst the 16-25 card is two-thirds.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A 16-17 railcard (saver) and a 16-24 railcard are not the same thing and offer different discounts. In this case, the 16-17 railcard offers a higher discount (50%) than the 16-24 railcard (33%).

I rather fear that your granddaughter has inadvertently pressed the wrong button when she purchased her tickets. This is a very unfortunate mistake but, unless there are issues that make the Penalty Fare defective (others can advise better than I on that), it would appear that the Penalty Fare was correct. An honest mistake and an expensive mistake, but a mistake on the part of your granddaughter and not the railway.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't. I don't live with my granddaughter. She's at uni in Cambridge. I live in Essex. She's appealed and is waiting for them to reply. It's an honest appeal. She paid the fare. It's just a question of not knowing how long it will take. The machine definitely printed the wrong Railcard information. They're not infallible.

How much did she pay? Her booking confirmation will show this if she bought online and collected the tickets.

Nobody is questioning her honesty, but as it stands it looks like she did not show a valid ticket, which is why she was Penalty Fared. Why this might be could be down to a number of factors, none of which we are privy to.

This is why we are asking for evidence to substantiate her story, and to find out whether it is reasonable for her to mount an appeal on the grounds you mention.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I can't. I don't live with them and they're at uni, or at work

Surely you can message them and ask them to send you screenshots? Even if it takes a day or two.

We're trying to help her and her friend, but without basic information and evidence its going to be really hard to do that

Fundamentally, if the screenshot shows she bought with a 16-25 railcard applied and paid the 16-25 price, but got a ticket with a 16-17 discount, then it looks like something has gone wrong in the railway's systems. However if the screenshot shows she bought with a 16-17 discount and got the matching ticket, they've made a mistake and all other things considered (there may be technicalities that others are better placed than me to identify) the PF has probably been correctly issued

 

[Jennifer55]

Has the granddaughter travelled on the wrong railcard before and just not said anything because they've "got away with it" - can she check to see if that's happened?

No,she hasn't. She's not a dishonest person.

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How much did she pay? Her booking confirmation will show this if she bought online and collected the tickets.

Nobody is questioning her honesty, but as it stands it looks like she did not show a valid ticket, which is why she was Penalty Fared. Why this might be could be down to a number of factors, none of which we are privy to.

This is why we are asking for evidence to substantiate her story, and to find out whether it is reasonable for her to mount an appeal on the grounds you mention.

She's already mounted an appeal. The ticket officer told her to and said she'd be successful. It was because she said she was duty bound to report her, even if it's not her fault. She showed her Railcard and ticket, bought in good faith. I'm only asking if anyone knows how long these thing take to resolve.

 

[island]

The ticket officer told her to and said she'd be successful. It was because she said she was duty bound to report her, even if it's not her fault.

This is often what happens in these interactions, ticket inspectors say them in order to de-escalate and avoid conflict. But they have no way to guarantee an appeal will be successful.

They bought them online then collected them from the machine. Paid the fare for the 16/24 Railcard. They've appealed as they're in the right. It's not a question of 'trying to pay less' They are honest people,not thieves like I said before. This is causing her great distress and it's not nice to be accused of trying to diddle a fare for a tenner.

We really do need to see the tickets and the booking confirmation, or at a very minimum know the amount that was paid, in order to give you definitive advice. We are not accusing the passenger of being dishonest or a thief, but it is possible that she made a mistake in selecting the 16-17 Saver instead of the 16-25 Railcard – ticket machines don't tend to randomly print a different ticket to what people purchased. So if she did make that mistake, then I am afraid she is in the wrong and the Penalty Fare will need to be paid.

 

[SuspectUsual]

She's already mounted an appeal. The ticket officer told her to and said she'd be successful. It was because she said she was duty bound to report her, even if it's not her fault

We hear this said a lot in threads on this forum, and we suspect its a tactic used by ticket inspectors to either de-escalate potentially difficult situations or play the "don't blame me I'm only doing my job" card. Sometimes appeals succeed, sometimes they don't. But a ticket inspector can't give a guarantee an appeal will succeed

To reiterate my previous post - if we can see the tickets and the receipt for their purchase, we will be able to help properly. Until then its just supposition

[EDIT] just seen @island has made the same points a couple of minutes ago

 

[AlterEgo]

She's already mounted an appeal. The ticket officer told her to and said she'd be successful. It was because she said she was duty bound to report her, even if it's not her fault. She showed her Railcard and ticket, bought in good faith.

The RPI is not duty bound to report everyone; if the RPI accepted the story that somehow, the machine "misprinted" their tickets, they would have simply allowed travel, or withdrawn the misprinted ticket and issued what's called a TIR which accompanies oddities like this. The RPI would also have issued a zero fare ticket for the passenger to complete their journey.

"I have to report you but yeah, it'll get overturned on appeal, definitely" is obviously not something an RPI can guarantee. If it would definitely be overturned on appeal...they would simply not report the passenger in the first place.

I'm only asking if anyone knows how long these thing take to resolve.

They do need to reply within 21 days at each stage. The first two appeals are usually unsuccessful, the third is usually a little more in depth.

If you don't want to benefit from the forum's expertise in attempting to overturn penalty fares then that is up to you, but if you show us the whole penalty fare and the tickets purchased, and a redacted booking confirmation, we can give detailed help.

Even if she has made a mistake herself, sometimes penalty fares notices are filled in improperly by the RPI which can render them unenforceable *even when the passenger was originally in the wrong*.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

Just to clarify a few things:

1. There is no such thing as 16/18 or 16/24. There is a 16-17 Saver Railcard that gives a discount of 50% and a 16-25 Railcard that gives a discount of 33% I know I'm being a bit pedantic but it's important that detail like this is correct if when dealing with appeals.

2. You said you granddaughter purchased the tickets online and collected them from the ticket machine at the station. If this is what happened the confirmation email or the transaction history in her account will show which railcard she applied when making the purchase.

3. It seems to me that the 16-17 Railcard was selected rather than 16-25. This is unfortunate because, legally speaking, this means the ticket was not valid and a Penalty Fare is an appropriate course of action to remedy this. That might seem extremely harsh but think of it like getting a parking ticket or speeding ticket - it feels unfair and expensive.

4. There's nothing to stop your granddaughter from appealing, and I would encourage her to do so but ordinarily I wouldn't expect the appealk to succeed based on what you've told us. Staff often tell people to appeal a Penalty Fare as a way of de-esclating the situation. There is a three stage appeals process but it's only the third one that gets looked at by a genuinely independant panel.

5. There might be some very technical reasons why the Penalty Fare might be invalid. I'll let other forum members more expert in these areas than me advise on this but this is why we need to see the whole notice as well as the actual tickets purchased.

 

[Jennifer55]

It was actually only one of the tickets showing the wrong railcard. Her boyfriends ticket showed the 16/25 railcard but hers showed the younger one. They were bought at the same time and collected from the machine together. On the dropdown selector the railcards for 16/17 and 16/25 are separated be another card in between. They have proof of purchase also. So now she's going to pay £80 she cannot afford and see if an appeal does any good. I doubt it will myself as they like to collect the money. She can't risk it increasing to £130 and she's stressed enough. I don't like the implication by some on here it was deliberate either!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It was actually only one of the tickets showing the wrong railcard. Her boyfriends ticket showed the 16/25 railcard but hers showed the younger one. They were bought at the same time and collected from the machine together. On the dropdown selector the railcards for 16/17 and 16/25 are separated be another card in between. They have proof of purchase also. So now she's going to pay £80 she cannot afford and see if an appeal does any good. I doubt it will myself as they like to collect the money. She can't risk it increasing to £130 and she's stressed enough. I don't like the implication by some on here it was deliberate either!

Were the two tickets bought in one transaction, or separately (even if separately was one immediately after the other)? And what website/app was used to buy the ticket? I ask because many online vendors will only recognise one type of railcard per transaction - so if two tickets are bought together they must both have the same sort of railcard (or <edit> both have </edit> no railcard at all).

If it turns out that the tickets were bought in the same transaction, and the vendor is one which will only deal with one sort of railcard at a time, then to me that's evidence that there's been some sort of system failure - which wouldn't be your granddaughter's fault.

The collection code(s) on the confirmation email (and also shown on the tickets as collected from the machine) would show whether this was one transaction for two tickets or two transactions each for one ticket.

(Edited to clarify an amibiguity)

 

[AlterEgo]

This would be a lot easier if you simply showed us the tickets and the proof of purchase. There is a lot of expertise here in handing Penalty Fares and consumer and railway law, which is at your disposal. But if you don't want to show us exactly what happened, and want us to rely on a second hand retelling of the story, we'd have to say it's unlikely but not impossible the tickets were misprinted. I used to deal with exactly these sorts of complaints a long time ago; in the overwhelming majority of cases the customer was simply mistaken or had made an error. That doesn't mean anyone was dishonest here, or has definitely made a mistake, but it's a little frustrating to see someone come here to ask for help and then be told "ok, show us exactly the tickets, and the proof of purchase" and then this not be forthcoming. We might even be able to tell you *exactly what happened* and whether she has a stronger defence than she thinks!

To note, the penalty fare does not necessarily have to be paid within 21 days, it only has to be *appealed* in that timescale - appealing stops the clock.

 

[WesternLancer]

It was actually only one of the tickets showing the wrong railcard. Her boyfriends ticket showed the 16/25 railcard but hers showed the younger one. They were bought at the same time and collected from the machine together. On the dropdown selector the railcards for 16/17 and 16/25 are separated be another card in between. They have proof of purchase also. So now she's going to pay £80 she cannot afford and see if an appeal does any good. I doubt it will myself as they like to collect the money. She can't risk it increasing to £130 and she's stressed enough. I don't like the implication by some on here it was deliberate either!

I've come late to this thread but it's worth you knowing that as I understand it for an Appeal on a Penalty Fare (PF) to be successful has to be based on the grounds that the PF was not issued in line with the PF regulations as set out in the legislation that governs PFs. It is not about appealing to their better nature, or that the PF is unfair etc.

For the Appeal to be successful it needs to show that. Or for example show in a way that can be proved that the ticket machine issued the wrong ticket despite the correct ticket being requested on the machine (which seems to be the basis of what you are saying happened and thus the basis on which an Appeal is being submitted - as people have already said I suspect this is improbable, and will indeed be difficult to prove).

The Appeal is handled by an independent body, not the railway company.

I note that in the week since this was first posted here, you have been unable to provide copies of any of the documentation requested, or ask your grand daughter to join the thread and clarify any of the points asked. As a student I'd feel sure she would have the technical ability to do that, and must have some of the documents too (tickets, receipts, payment proofs etc). They should be uploaded with all personal details / ref numbers blanked out if she is able to help with that.

However, it is still worth appealing because:

- this helps prevent the railway company bringing a magistrates court persecution on the grounds that they travelled with incorrect and thus not valid tickets
- it buys time to save up the money to pay the PF

However, I would not miss the prompt payment discount which reduces the Penalty element of this from £100 to £50. If the Appeal is successful any sum paid would be refunded.

Going forwards, if there is any question of the ticket machine or the online purchasing not being reliable I would recommend buying the tickets from a staffed ticket office (in most cases the price would be the same) thus any error on the ticket would likely to be the fault of the member of staff who sold the ticket, not the person who bought it and just maybe ticked the wrong box when selecting the Railcard discount.

My apols if any of this isn't what you really want to hear.

 

[John R]

It was actually only one of the tickets showing the wrong railcard. Her boyfriends ticket showed the 16/25 railcard but hers showed the younger one. They were bought at the same time and collected from the machine together. On the dropdown selector the railcards for 16/17 and 16/25 are separated be another card in between. They have proof of purchase also. So now she's going to pay £80 she cannot afford and see if an appeal does any good. I doubt it will myself as they like to collect the money. She can't risk it increasing to £130 and she's stressed enough. I don't like the implication by some on here it was deliberate either!

We really need to see the proof of purchase to be able to assist you. One thing is sure, whoever looks at any appeal will have that information at their disposal, and it will clearly show whether there was a fault with the machine or whether your GD was mistaken. Surely better that we see it first, if you are asking us for assistance?