Railcards are going Digital

[trainophile]

I got a heavily subsidised power pack when the EE Power Bars were discontinued (remember those?), which were in and of themselves pretty good, apart from the fire risk.

Said battery pack, from a random unknown third party via EE, is rated at 10,000 mAh, and holds charge well enough that I can leave it for months and still be able to charge a couple of phones, with a couple of bars left.

The investment (little more than a tenner for me) is well worth it!

I bet a 10,000mAh battery pack weighs down your pocket a bit!

 

[TUC]

I'm fine with the principle of digital versions of products such as railcards being available, but if would raise issues for some disabled passengers if the digital version was cheaper than the paper one. For example, some passengers with severe visual impairments need to use screen readers in order to use phones. Screen readers can have difficulty reading apps and so the passenger would not be able to know whether they have the railcard on the screen. If they therefore had pay more for a paper version issues of discrimination could arise.

 

[TUC]

Presumably the guard would need to take hold of one's phone to check the displayed railcard, especially if the lighting is bad or very bright?

I don't fancy that, an example reason being just two days ago I witnessed a youth excavating his nostrils while playing on his phone - why should the guard have to handle his phone in the first instance, and then transfer all the germs picked up onto everyone else's phones?

I know the same applies with tickets, but at least they are disposed of at the end of the journey, and one can wash one's hands!

In airports check-in staff are handling phones all the time as they are a common way of storing boarding cards. It's hard to see why issues should be different for rail staff.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Then buy a paper ticket at a TVM. Nobody is proposing to abolish them.

Are you quite sure about that ? I also have a very nice class 91 battery pack


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[Marklund]

Some of the objections to a simple step forward are quite bizarre and alarmist and frankly I'm not surprised; this is part of the reason why You Can't Have Nice Things.

Can't disagree with that!
It's only an ID to provide entitlement to a discount on a train ticket, it's not your life story and inside leg measurement.

 

[infobleep]

I bet a 10,000mAh battery pack weighs down your pocket a bit!

It isn't so light that's for sure but I always carry a bag with me so it goes in there.

 

[sheff1]

Then buy a paper ticket at a TVM. Nobody is proposing to abolish them.

I could have sworn I had heard people proposing that very thing on the basis that all tickets would be on smartcards. Mind you, the "answer to all ticketing problems" smartcards now appear to be becoming redundant before they even exist as the new "answer to all ticketing problems" is a smartphone.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

From a purely practical point of view the change to there being multiple different forms of ticket presentation is a pain in the ar*e.

Before : Come down train checking tickets. People present card ticket. I visually inspect with my eyes, which takes a second or two, stamp if necessary and continue to the next person. Occasionally someone won't see me coming and they have to fumble around looking for it. Most passengers kept railcards with tickets as all railcards were station issued and in ticket wallets so both were presented at the same time.

Now : Come down train checking tickets. Some people present card ticket, I check and stamp as before. Some people have paper Star Mobile tickets. IN the case of return tickets they are often screwed up and tatty making reading more time consuming. If an open return ticket our instruction is to scan them too. This means I have to get out my company phone, wake the screen up, open the scanning app, scan, and put phone away. They don't often scan once folded or screwed up so that doesn't always work. The next few passengers have card tickets so back to the old process. Someone has a railcard, but because it is an online issued plastic one they don't have a ticket wallet, so it is in their purse / wallet with about 5000 other discount / store / loyalty cards, so they have to fumble around looking for it. The next person has a phone ticket. But they are currently looking at Facebook so they have to close that app, move their screen around to find the ticket app, then open the ticket app, then find their ticket wallet, then find the ticket for the journey today. They often show the Outward leg rather than the return because they don't realise there are two bits. They often don't activate it because they don't read the instructions. I have to get my scanner out again. Then I ask to see their railcard, so repeat the fumbling around process above. The next person has a print at home ticket, but their printer was running out of ink, or the settings weren't right, so parts of the printing are missing or illegible. The scanner might not scan it because of that. Some people shrink it down which makes reading difficult and scanning often impossible. The next few people have traditional tickets - phew. The next person has brought a ticket on their app, but they selected to collect it at the station. They have a reference number, but have not collected their ticket because they didn't realise they needed to because they hadn't actually read what they were doing when they brought the ticket. I can see it is an Anytime ticket, so could be used by anyone or refunded, so I then enter a long debate about why they need to pay again. The next few people have normal tickets - phew again. The next person has a mobile phone ticket, but it is a screenshot, rather than the ticket itself, because their friend brought it for them. I can't scan it because the friend sent the ticket picture rather than the aztec code. Enter debate about why they need to pay again. Then someone has a flat battery, which is never their fault, and they ask if I have a charger they can use. Then we have some more people with traditional paper tickets, which is a relief, although even this is tiresome as there now seem to be about 50 different layouts and print formats, rather than 2 or 3. Then some more mobile tickets, all correctly downloaded and ready, but I need to get the scanner out again for each one, and scanning each one and the scanner app focusing and doing it's business takes more time than a visual check and stamping by hand. Then someone has an MCard, but they don't have the paper counterpart because the paypoint retailer never gave it to them. So I have to open my phone again, open a different app, which is painfully slow to open and work, then scan the card, then wait for the app to do something.

If you then start adding in the need for someone to switch apps to show the railcard, or wake their phone up to show their railcard when they have a paper ticket and yet more time is wasted.

And then lots of people wonder why they never see the Guard in their part of the train!

And don't get me started on ticket gates when people start fumbling around with their phones, bits of paper, print outs etc, and then trying to work out what to do or where the scanner is as every gate is different.

At least with card tickets it was easy and every gate is the same.

Now I am not against the advance of new technology etc, but it really ought to be co-ordinated better, because at the minute it is a complete shambles. There are so many different apps, all presenting things differently, and doing different things, and so so many people really don't read what they are buying or what they need to do when asked to show the ticket and then start asking for help in what to do etc. Oh, and then they realise they haven't downloaded their ticket to their app yet, but they have no data, and the train has no wifi, or they have no signal, but it's never their fault for not reading what to do. At least with a paper ticket everyone knew where they stood and what to do.

Add in railcard apps too and more time is wasted, more confusion and fumbling around takes place and there is yet more potential for problems.

Rant over.

 

[Puffing Devil]

From a purely practical point of view the change to there being multiple different forms of ticket presentation is a pain in the ar*e.

Post of the day!


Technology is not always the answer. Some years ago I managed a system swap and we worked out it was cheaper to re-key data than design, build and implement an electronic data transfer.

And it was. And it worked. To time and below budget.

 

[LiftFan]

Another problem that crops up on this mobile ticketing malarkey is that often the apps require data to load the tickets. A fair amount of places in this country don't have fast mobile wifi so the important scanner parts of the various tickets or the moving bits to prove it's not an altered screenshot don't load in and all you get is a bunch of empty boxes.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Not only that it's also a pain in the backside to read the m-tickets as you need to check they're not on an AP single and if they are they're on the right train and also look for any railcard discount. Invariably it's not the right train, and if it's a walk up ticket it wasn't activated so that they could use it for the next day, and the next, and so on. Until we start checking m-tickets were activated before departure. It should be an instant ticket irregularity each and every time that happens but instead it's "show discretion as they're new". They're not that new that the regulars haven't cottoned onto the game with Anytime/Off Peak Returns!

 

[alxndr]

I'm not opposed to it, it's something that's bound to happen with the current shift towards everything ending up on smartphones one way or another. I just hope, for everyone's sake, that it's implemented properly.

For me personally though, as long as the price remains the same, or there's less than £3 difference, I'll stick to using a physical railcard. It lives quite happily in my wallet, always in the same slot, and causes no hassle. I don't need something else to try and juggle fitting into my phone's memory, or having to with the frustration of having it crash/load slowly/someone calling at the moment I want to show it.

 

[Ed92uk]

A lot of people complaining about another app etc. I will be very disapointed if this is the case. I have mentioned before about a certain retailer who do what I call proper m tickets delivered to your apple wallet. I believe this is only advance at the moment but no toc app required no messing around activating. The railcard would be perfect for me linked in apple wallet and would show automatically with your ticket. You can even show the guard your Apple Watch if you have one instead of phone.

I am not voting iPhone over android or anything I just personally have experience with apple wallet. Location based so when I approach my usual station the ticket appears you don't have to unlock your phone to use it. Seems to me the technology is all ready with our phones and the train industry and others need to get on board. I completely agree it's a mess a different app for each city but this is one way of standardising.

 

[Abpj17]

I didn't see the word "replace" anywhere in that brief. So, not yet then.

Fannying around to find the phone, then entering the PIN to get past the LockScreen, then searching for the railcard app (as it's not on the home screen of the device), then opening the app and then selecting the correct menu options to display the railcard details to the guard, takes how much less time than simply showing them a piece of card in your wallet/purse/railcard holder?

Hmm.

Just because it can be done, it doesn't mean it should be done.

It should be done. Touch id, apple wallet (if they've implemented it smartly), enables hopefully better/flexible pricing, and can't be lost/can be blocked if lost.

 

[planetf1]

I never forget my phone and barely need a wallet any more. That's progress. The technology is there for people to use.

Ditto... Apple pay on my watch is perfect for small purchases and always have phone with me.




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[Starmill]

Not only that it's also a pain in the backside to read the m-tickets as you need to check they're not on an AP single and if they are they're on the right train and also look for any railcard discount. Invariably it's not the right train, and if it's a walk up ticket it wasn't activated so that they could use it for the next day, and the next, and so on. Until we start checking m-tickets were activated before departure. It should be an instant ticket irregularity each and every time that happens but instead it's "show discretion as they're new". They're not that new that the regulars haven't cottoned onto the game with Anytime/Off Peak Returns!

Surely you can simply ask them to activate the ticket there and then? It's no different than people who chance it without a ticket - if there are gates or an onboard ticket inspection they will get caught and have to pay. If neither of those things are in place for their journey, on anything but the most occasional basis, then clearly the train company is doing something very wrong.

I'm far more interested in trying to 'get' the people who get on the train knowing full well they were supposed to pay but just say they don't have a ticket or any money and won't be paying (I do see these, and not that rarely) than someone who has forgotten to activate their m-ticket.

 

[me123]

Ah, the usual responses coming up in this thread by those threatened by the thought of technology... existing.

1) No-one is forced to use digital railcards. They exist as an option open to some people, who may wish to use them. I would be interested, although I'm sadly on my final railcard for some time.
2) Yes, they have problems. But, remember that paper railcards can also be lost (probably more commonly and less immediately noticeably than a mobile phone), or can also become faded and illegible (I had to get one changed because the ink wore down in just a few months and the guards were having trouble reading it).
3) Displaying a Railcard on an app is no slower than the paper versions. Yes, sometimes you have to unlock the phone and so on. But given the large number of people who seem to think that they should put their train tickets at the bottom of the suitcase and seems surprised to have a check onboard the train, I don't see how the same can't be said of paper tickets.

There are no issues with technology that don't exist with paper tickets in some capacity, or at least there are no issues that don't have a parallel with paper tickets. Charging is the big one I suppose, but quite a lot of trains have power points (and more should) so there is the opportunity to remedy this for many. Besides, the rules will clearly state that an uncharged phone is not a railcard, so it is up to the person to charge their phone. I can't remember the last time my phone wasn't charged - through use of power saving modes and flight safe modes the batteries can last for a tremendous amount of time.

I know the good old days were wonderful and so on, but if I could use my mobile phone instead of carrying around bits of paper (which I now do successfully anyway for my flights, cinema tickets, multiple loyalty cards, and even for rail travel in America!) then I would. In fact, I look forward to my first trip on UK rail with digital tickets next week. Like others above, Apple Pay is now my most frequent payment method. I can assure you that young people (the 16-25 railcard holders) will be far less likely to forget their phone than they would a railcard. They will adopt this and use it as a preferred to choice to the paper or plastic railcard. Welcome to the 21st century.

 

[Antman]

Technology is not always the answer

It is when it is done properly, just look at Oyster and contactless.

When it isn't a success is when you get multiple useless train companies inventing their own products, rather than coming together to deliver a single system that actually works.

 

[trainophile]

I'm guessing that the vast majority of posters on this forum are closer to 18-25 than 60+. I am in the latter category and fairly tech savvy in a basic way, but on my travels I see many elderly folk who can barely make a call on their old non-smart PAYG Nokia.

Hopefully this idea won't evolve to the point where everyone wishing to use a train has to buy an expensive phone, and/or a computer and printer.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Technology is not always the answer

It is when it is done properly, just look at Oyster and contactless.

That's what I meant by "not always".

Oyster, and contactless that built on that infrastructure, is a great system. Though it does still have issues with missed taps.

And it predominately relies on powerless RFID cards, not a mobile app. I know Apple and Android pay now work with the system; they rely on payment technology, not an Oyster app. And you're still stuffed if you run out of juice during the trip - that can't happen with an RFID card.

 

[planetf1]

Will this include the network railcard or does this remain a loner?


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[jon0844]

I can't see any reason that people couldn't have both a paper/plastic railcard AND the app. As long as there's a photo, it should be fine. And the app can introduce various methods for security, like changing images/colours so you know it's a live app - not a Photoshopped image.

One day, more staff will have handheld readers that can scan smartcards, read barcodes and could potentially verify authenticity (perhaps done at random).

 

[iknowyeah]

I'm 25 and hate e-ticketing and print at home with a passion. Not just from the staff point of view, but when I've been to events that only provide a print at home option, faffing around ringing 10 different people to see who has a printer I can use.
Card tickets are the only way I feel sure, and I hate that airlines have basically done away with them just as i start flying regularly

 

[FenMan]

Ah, the usual responses coming up in this thread by those threatened by the thought of technology... existing.

I have nothing whatsoever against the onward march of useful technoloy. Note the qualifier "useful".

Having worked for 37 years - so far - for various IT companies I am well aware of the beneficial transformations that new technology can bring. I am also aware of the many more punts that came to nothing or made matters worse.

Coming back to the current attempts at introducing smart ticketing on our railways, you may hazard a guess as to my thoughts on which of the above outcomes is more likely.

 

[takno]

I'm 25 and hate e-ticketing and print at home with a passion. Not just from the staff point of view, but when I've been to events that only provide a print at home option, faffing around ringing 10 different people to see who has a printer I can use.
Card tickets are the only way I feel sure, and I hate that airlines have basically done away with them just as i start flying regularly

I've been travelling regularly on airlines for 15 years, and in all that time I don't think I've ever had an actual ticket. Haven't printed many of them either. Easyjet have a decent app, and proper airlines (plus flyBe) let you rock up at the airport and use a machine or desk to check in.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm 25 and hate e-ticketing and print at home with a passion. Not just from the staff point of view, but when I've been to events that only provide a print at home option, faffing around ringing 10 different people to see who has a printer I can use.
Card tickets are the only way I feel sure, and I hate that airlines have basically done away with them just as i start flying regularly

This development isn't to do with printing at home.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

And here is lots of the information you have all been excitedly waiting for...

 

[MikeWh]

Well the obvious bonus for F&F railcard holders is that two devices mean that each holder could make separate journeys with different kids. I guess that they've considered this and decided that it's not too much risk, after all, one adult is going to have to match one of the two photos.

 

[maniacmartin]

It looks like the NR logo in the bottom right has spinning colours to prevent someone making a static photoshop.

 

[takno]

It looks like the NR logo in the bottom right has spinning colours to prevent someone making a static photoshop.

Is that the best they can do for fraud prevention? Seems like you could fake that with an animated gif.