Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[yorksrob]

Those involved in the negotiations know exactly what has been offered. Granted, it’s taking some of the people involved a little while to comprehend it, hence several clarifications.




Genuine question (and no hidden agenda!) - do train crew contracts say, effectively “you will work your diagrams exactly as specified”, or do they effectively say “you will do the work required within your rostered times”





ah, but let’s say the deal isn’t stupid, and the union reps in the negotiations say it is acceptable, subject to checking back at their head office?

If they know exactly what has been discussed, why are we getting opposing statements as to what has been said ?

Employees and passengers deserve better.

 

[SJN]

I’m not on about passengers. I was talking about random people on the internet.

 

[dk1]

There is no excuse for being rude back to passengers, no matter who rude they are to you.

Oh I don’t know about that, I will certainly either have my say or totally ignore them altogether. Depends what mood I’m in.

 

[Bluejays]

Oh I don’t know about that, I will certainly either have my say or totally ignore them altogether. Depends what mood I’m in.

100%, can never understand this idea that because you're working you just have to put up with any old rubbish. Rude and aggressive people need to be challenged when possible.

Funny enough I popped into mcdonalds the other day, 2 scumbags acting horrendously towards the staff. The look on their faces when they were given their marching orders and left without their food was priceless.

 

[Bantamzen]

Oh I don’t know about that, I will certainly either have my say or totally ignore them altogether. Depends what mood I’m in.

Well honestly you shouldn't. I've worked in far more stressful situations than on the rails in my career, and believe me I've had to bite my tongue on many an occasion. But I have had to always be professional.

100%, can never understand this idea that because you're working you just have to put up with any old rubbish. Rude and aggressive people need to be challenged when possible.

Funny enough I popped into mcdonalds the other day, 2 scumbags acting horrendously towards the staff. The look on their faces when they were given their marching orders and left without their food was priceless.

Done properly that's fine, but if staff are just plain rude and nasty then quite honestly they need to reconsider their career choices before they are given no choice.

 

[TUC]

I haven’t said that rail staff should be immune to anything. I do understand though why some staff might be rude to some people making comments that belittle our jobs.

Arguing that roles may not be the most optimal ones to suit modern day rail operations isn't belittling jobs though. I think it's more that people look at their own jobs and the places they work and know that what they do, and the wider staff structures, may have changed several times over the years without it being a particularly big deal. They look at the railway and wonder why they make such a meal out of change, turning into a matter of complex negotiations, rather than just a natural part of how business needs and jobs develop.

 

[dk1]

Well honestly you shouldn't. I've worked in far more stressful situations than on the rails in my career, and believe me I've had to bite my tongue on many an occasion. But I have had to always be professional.

I will do my upmost not to swear if they swear at me but I will certainly put them right. Thankfully I can only recall a few occasions in over 30 years where it has come to that. I will walk off if I’m uncomfortable with the tone.

100%, can never understand this idea that because you're working you just have to put up with any old rubbish. Rude and aggressive people need to be challenged when possible.

Funny enough I popped into mcdonalds the other day, 2 scumbags acting horrendously towards the staff. The look on their faces when they were given their marching orders and left without their food was priceless.

Totally agree. The customer most certainly is not always right. My upbringing in my parents public house taught me that & ‘we don’t want you, we don’t need you’ has stuck with me. No time for it.

 

[Bluejays]

Well honestly you shouldn't. I've worked in far more stressful situations than on the rails in my career, and believe me I've had to bite my tongue on many an occasion. But I have had to always be professional.


Done properly that's fine, but if staff are just plain rude and nasty then quite honestly they need to reconsider their career choices before they are given no choice.

I thought you said you were office based civil service. A professional dispute may be 'far more stressful' than what us mere mortals on the railway deal with. I wouldn't imagine it's as patently aggressive and downright rude as what customer facing staff have to put up with from time to time. Slightly disingenuous line that you're trying to take here.

 

[Moonshot]

Arguing that roles may not be the most optimal ones to suit modern day rail operations isn't belittling jobs though. I think it's more that people look at their own jobs and the places they work, and know that what they do, and the wider staff structures, may have changed several times over the years without it being a particularly big deal. They look at the railway and wonder why they make such a meal out of change, turning into a matter of complex negotiations, rather than just a natural part of how business needs and jobs develop.

Best post on this thread. It's a good job the entire industry doesn't go on strike every time a signal box closed and transfers it's operations to a ROC.

 

[Bald Rick]

If they know exactly what has been discussed, why are we getting opposing statements as to what has been said ?

Why do you think? I won’t go into detail, but one party to the negotiation is bound by corporate and employment law about what it can say. One isn’t.

Well honestly you shouldn't. I've worked in far more stressful situations than on the rails in my career, and believe me I've had to bite my tongue on many an occasion. But I have had to always be professional.

I agree that you have to avoid outright rudeness, but equally it is also important that employees stand up against poor behaviour, partly on principle, and partly to show to the 99.9% of customers who are reasonable that standards are being upheld.

 

[Killingworth]

I don't think you can give a "bad" reference these days...

That's been the case now for many years. Basically all it's safe to say is that X worked for the company and possibly the dates. That's all my ex-employer would give for me after over 30 years of exemplary service.

 

[Bantamzen]

I thought you said you were office based civil service. A professional dispute may be 'far more stressful' than what us mere mortals on the railway deal with. I wouldn't imagine it's as patently aggressive and downright rude as what customer facing staff have to put up with from time to time. Slightly disingenuous line that you're trying to take here.

Yep, and the civil service has front facing jobs, one of which I started off with dealing with people on the thin edge of society. I'll leave it to you to guess what job that might have been.

 

[yorksrob]

Why do you think? I won’t go into detail, but one party to the negotiation is bound by corporate and employment law about what it can say. One isn’t.

So has a "no strings" pay rise been offered then ?

Either way, it shouldn't be left for employees and passengers to decipher who's telling the truth or not.

There's no reason why an agreed summary of discussions can't be published.

 

[Efini92]

Genuine question (and no hidden agenda!) - do train crew contracts say, effectively “you will work your diagrams exactly as specified”, or do they effectively say “you will do the work required within your rostered times”

It depends on the T&C’s of the specific TOC. Some work to their diagrams and have to mutually agree any changes. Some can have their worked changed as long as it fits the booking on and off times.
Most of intercity TOCS can also have their day extended by an hour when they book on to cover train running.

 

[dk1]

It depends on the T&C’s of the specific TOC. Some work to their diagrams and have to mutually agree any changes. Some can have their worked changed as long as it fits the booking on and off times.
Most of intercity TOCS can also have their day extended by an hour when they book on to cover train running.

We can be changed within our rostered hours but only if a particular train has been cancelled. Even then if it ends as little as 1 minute beyond the original turn then it can be refused.

 

[Bald Rick]

So has a "no strings" pay rise been offered then ?

The offer is exactly as stated in the letter that has been shared upthread and the communications from the TSSA. The pay offer is not conditional on delivering the maintenance modernisation milestones, because maintenance modernisation is happening anyway; the formal consultation on that started on Thursday.

 

[SJN]

Arguing that roles may not be the most optimal ones to suit modern day rail operations isn't belittling jobs though. I think it's more that people look at their own jobs and the places they work and know that what they do, and the wider staff structures, may have changed several times over the years without it being a particularly big deal. They look at the railway and wonder why they make such a meal out of change, turning into a matter of complex negotiations, rather than just a natural part of how business needs and jobs develop.

I’ve known plenty of changes happen without there being major fuss. As a driver I know my role and I’ll take tips off my driver manager or fellow drivers to improve my driving. I won’t be taking anything from randomers saying all I do is move a lever all day.

 

[JonathanH]

Best post on this thread. It's a good job the entire industry doesn't go on strike every time a signal box closed and transfers it's operations to a ROC.

Yes, but that is because that battle has already been lost / accepted by the relevant staff.

 

[Clarence Yard]

So has a "no strings" pay rise been offered then ?

Either way, it shouldn't be left for employees and passengers to decipher who's telling the truth or not.

There's no reason why an agreed summary of discussions can't be published.

The press keep quoting the position with NR staff as if it was the position with the whole industry. It isn’t.

TOC staff have not had a formal % offer. There was rumour of certain figures earlier on but nothing concrete. The TOCs, under their contracts with the DfT, have to obtain a mandate from the DfT to offer anything and any deal is subject to their approval.

So far the TOC “negotiations” seem to be (roughly) on the lines of “agree to the productivity changes and we can give you a figure”. Unsurprisingly, they aren’t going well.

 

[yorksrob]

The press keep quoting the position with NR staff as if it was the position with the whole industry. It isn’t.

TOC staff have not had a formal % offer. There was rumour of certain figures earlier on but nothing concrete. The TOCs, under their contracts with the DfT, have to obtain a mandate from the DfT to offer anything and any deal is subject to their approval.

So far the TOC “negotiations” seem to be (roughly) on the lines of “agree to the productivity changes and we can give you a figure”. Unsurprisingly, they aren’t going well.

That's a fair point. There are different negotiations for different companies.

 

[SJN]

The press keep quoting the position with NR staff as if it was the position with the whole industry. It isn’t.

TOC staff have not had a formal % offer. There was rumour of certain figures earlier on but nothing concrete. The TOCs, under their contracts with the DfT, have to obtain a mandate from the DfT to offer anything and any deal is subject to their approval.

So far the TOC “negotiations” seem to be (roughly) on the lines of “agree to the productivity changes and we can give you a figure”. Unsurprisingly, they aren’t going well.

Well today on the news there was someone from the Rail Delivery Group saying that the ASLEF members can’t be offered anything until reforms are agreed. I haven’t seen any suggestions of reforms and I know of 3 TOC’s that have put 0% on the table. There was nothing about offering anything in return for something.

 

[Moonshot]

Yes, but that is because that battle has already been lost / accepted by the relevant staff.

Do you think booking office staff should accept that ticket retailing has changed and that they should move on to other roles?

 

[ashkeba]

I’m not on about passengers. I was talking about random people on the internet.

Who can tell which random person on the internet is a passenger or not?

 

[Moonshot]

That's a fair point. There are different negotiations for different companies.

Absolutely no offer at mine so far

 

[JonathanH]

The press keep quoting the position with NR staff as if it was the position with the whole industry. It isn’t.

Helpful to confuse the position though because
a) there seems likely to be a higher increase on the table for Network Rail staff than TOC staff,
b) sorting out Network Rail gives the TOC staff less power to cause disruption
c) there are more 'nasties' on the table for TOC staff.

Going on about the NR offer (unfairly) paints the TOC staff in a worse light in the eyes of the public which is probably the desired position from those with the pursestrings.

As mentioned before, in my view, the RMT need to keep Network Rail staff on strike to cause maximum operational disruption. However, may be it would be better to get the Network Rail dispute resolved to allow the TOC discussions to move on.

 

[yorksrob]

Helpful to confuse the position though because
a) there seems likely to be a higher increase on the table for Network Rail staff than TOC staff,
b) sorting out Network Rail gives the TOC staff less power to cause disruption
c) there are more 'nasties' on the table for TOC staff.

Going on about the NR offer (unfairly) paints the TOC staff in a worse light in the eyes of the public which is probably the desired position from those with the pursestrings.

As mentioned before, in my view, the RMT need to keep Network Rail staff on strike to cause maximum operational disruption. However, may be it would be better to get the Network Rail dispute resolved to allow the TOC discussions to move on.

That does sound like a bit of a dilemma.

I very much hope the RMT win out against the dreadful proposals to close ticket offices.

 

[JonathanH]

Do you think booking office staff should accept that ticket retailing has changed and that they should move on to other roles?

I imagine that they don't accept it has changed.

My view is here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/railway-industrial-disputes-mk2.234228/page-45#post-5772674 that station staff can give better customer service away from a ticket office counter desk but I appreciate it might not suit all current ticket office staff.

 

[Need2]

That's been the case now for many years. Basically all it's safe to say is that X worked for the company and possibly the dates. That's all my ex-employer would give for me after over 30 years of exemplary service.

No it’s not!
Your company and many others may choose to give very limited information about an ex-employee but in reality they can say exactly what they like as long as it’s true.

 

[TUC]

That does sound like a bit of a dilemma.

I very much hope the RMT win out against the dreadful proposals to close ticket offices.

A great example of how the world is changing and there just needs to be sensible business decisions made about where there is really a need for ticket office or where staff out on platforms to assist would serve customers better and be a better use of resiurces.

 

[yorksrob]

A great example of how the world is changing and there just needs to be sensible business decisions made about where there is really a need for ticket office or where staff out on platforms to assist would serve customers better and be a better use of resiurces.

I don't see what having someone wandering about with a ticket machine will offer. At least with an open ticket office you know where to go to find someone.

This sounds like the sort of half baked idea that the DfT is fond of wasting its time on, when it should be concentrating on getting the trains running.