Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Watershed]

why would LNWR be able to run a skeleton service on Wednesday but nothing at all on Saturday?

On Wednesday, the RMT are on strike. Their members include most signallers, guards and TOC in-house maintenance staff. Network Rail have some contingent signallers, as do the TOCs for guards. So it is possible to run a skeleton service over a few lines; the diesel lines are shut and units would likely not be fuelled anyway.

On Saturday, ASLEF are on strike at certain TOCs. Their members include most drivers. Most TOCs don't have more than a handful of contingent drivers - it's a skillset which takes far longer training to obtain, and which must be exercised far more frequent to maintain. So TOCs such as WMT are, perhaps understandably, throwing in the towel and just not running any trains at all.

There will still be some trains running - Network Rail staff aren't on strike, and so TOCs such as Avanti, Chiltern, CrossCountry and TfW (where ASLEF don't yet have a mandate) can still run a normal service.

 

[ComUtoR]

Fantastic list. I’ve never had great opinions of Truss, but these proposals are very promising.

Do you honestly believe that anything on that list is positive ? Everything is an errosion of workers rights.

Do you realise that anything proposed will affect EVERY single strike action and not just the current rail strikes ?

Why would you support such a list ?

It's a list purely designed to gain votes.

 

[Efini92]

Do you honestly believe that anything on that list is positive ? Everything is an errosion of workers rights.

Do you realise that anything proposed will affect EVERY single strike action and not just the current rail strikes ?

Why would you support such a list ?

It's a list purely designed to gain votes.

Because they are narrow minded.

 

[Falcon1200]

Apart from previous strikes & the like, I always think of the aftermath of Hatfield in 2000.

Was the Hatfield aftermath not a major factor in EWSR losing the Royal Mail business ?

• Raise the minimum proportion of workers required to back a strike ballot for industrial action to be legal from 40 per cent of those eligible to vote to 50 per cent.

Liz Truss only obtained 45% of her own constituencies vote. More people didn't want her than did. If 50% is deemed the fair level for workers, it should also be the fair level for MP's too.

Slight difference; In a General Election voters have a choice of several candidates, scattering the vote, whereas a strike vote is Yes or No. But I do actually share some of the RMT's concerns regarding the Truss proposals.

 

[footprints]

Do you honestly believe that anything on that list is positive ? Everything is an errosion of workers rights.

Do you realise that anything proposed will affect EVERY single strike action and not just the current rail strikes ?

Why would you support such a list ?

It's a list purely designed to gain votes.

I agree but wasn't such a list pretty much inevitable as soon as the RMT pursued this course of action, given the Government we have?

 

[dk1]

Was the Hatfield aftermath not a major factor in EWSR losing the Royal Mail business ?

It’s mentioned in Wikipedia but I can’t honestly remember now. Used to often post letters onto the up night mail from Norwich.

 

[Starmill]

I agree but wasn't such a list pretty much inevitable as soon as the RMT pursued this course of action, given the Government we have?

Precisely. I disagree at a very fundamental level with everything Liz Truss stands for socially and economically. However, unfortunately, people have voted Conservatives into power and if you provoke governing Conservatives I'm unsure what you can possibly expect them to do other than erode worker's rights in return. Tories gonna tory.

 

[Smidster]

Do you honestly believe that anything on that list is positive ? Everything is an errosion of workers rights.

Do you realise that anything proposed will affect EVERY single strike action and not just the current rail strikes ?

Why would you support such a list ?

It's a list purely designed to gain votes.

Honestly - Mostly yes.

On the threshold having a majority support among the "electorate" feels completely reasonable to me - if people can't be bothered voting then they should be taken as a "no"

Notice period - In practice don't think this makes a jot of difference and gives more time to discuss / prepare.

minimum service - The country cannot afford to grind to a half whenever (insert union) decides it wants more silver. The devil will be in the detail here.

Taxing Strike pay - Why wouldn't it be...that is your "income" for the day you are striking and should be treated accordingly.

Well aware it would apply for all strikes.

And for the record I am as far from a Tory as possible but this nonsense has gone on long enough and indeed it is the "strike as lead option" nature of the RMT that makes this stuff more likely.

 

[whoosh]

Precisely. I disagree at a very fundamental level with everything Liz Truss stands for socially and economically. However, unfortunately, people have voted Conservatives into power and if you provoke governing Conservatives I'm unsure what you can possibly expect them to do other than erode worker's rights in return. Tories gonna tory.

You don't think it's the Government doing the provocation then?


I think that this....

Liz Truss's proposals:

• 
  
• Introduce minimum service levels during strikes affecting critical national infrastructure such as railways and hospitals.
• Raise the minimum proportion of workers required to back a strike ballot for industrial action to be legal from 40 per cent of those eligible to vote to 50 per cent.
• Increase the minimum notice period for strikes to four weeks, up from two weeks at present.
• End unions being able to strike as many times as they like in the six months after a ballot.
• Stop members receiving tax-free payments from trade unions on strike days.

....is the whole purpose of provoking the strikes.
Let's be honest, these proposals will have been written out in detail by Senior Civil Servants, and just given to one of the finalists in the leadership election to make it look like someone can swoop in and control the chaos. Chaos which has been stirred up by rubbish pay offers coupled with worsening terms and conditions.

Once in, those items make it harder to go on strike, harder to stay on strike, harder to threaten a strike. Meaning terms and conditions and pay can be eroded much more effectively. Not just on the railway, but everywhere.

TOCs acting under 'government guidance' - why else would East Midlands Railway (EMR) not be in a position to make a pay offer for January 2022? Not even an offer of 0%. Just no offer at all.

This is politics, and the government doesn't care about the passengers or the "working families" which they use as a soundbite to make it sound like they do (because we are at a point where BOTH parents have to work full time and the children be brought by institutionalised childcare - and they don't care about that).

If a TOC is not even making a really rubbish offer, but no offer at all, then someone is pulling the strings.



DFC=District Functional Council
EC = Executive Committee

 

[Starmill]

You don't think it's the Government doing the provocation then?

I don't think that they're at all clever enough for that, no. Their primary role has simply been to ignore the issue and say "no" whenever there's any request to approve anything that requires additional spend.

 

[thin_richmond]

All of this ends in a General Strike.

 

[Starmill]

All of this ends in a General Strike.

Sounds like a sensible idea to me but unfortunately it's very unlikely that enough people can get together to pull it off. Especially given the existing highly restrictive laws on striking.

 

[Bald Rick]

Most TOCs don't have more than a handful of contingent drivers - it's a skillset which takes far longer training to obtain, and which must be exercised far more frequent to maintain. So TOCs such as WMT are, perhaps understandably, throwing in the towel and just not running any trains at all.

WMT are in the bizarre position that they have an agreement with ASLEF that Driver Managers are not permitted to drive trains. Hence no service.

Was the Hatfield aftermath not a major factor in EWSR losing the Royal Mail business ?

Yes it was.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All of this ends in a General Strike.

Does history teach us the eventual outcome of that?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Does history teach us the eventual outcome of that?

Indeed, I believe the government of the day won. No wonder industrial relations have been bitter ever since. And who's to stop today's government bringing in yet another set of emergency powers to keep transport moving? Unfortunately, they hold the purse strings

 

[Robertj21a]

Precisely. I disagree at a very fundamental level with everything Liz Truss stands for socially and economically. However, unfortunately, people have voted Conservatives into power and if you provoke governing Conservatives I'm unsure what you can possibly expect them to do other than erode worker's rights in return. Tories gonna tory.

Yes, given how relatively poor Truss may well turn out to be as the new Prime Minister, wouldn't it be highly likely that she would be looking for quick hits that would be highly popular with voters?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

why would LNWR be able to run a skeleton service on Wednesday but nothing at all on Saturday?

Because they have managers trained up at contingency guards. No such contingency for when drivers are on strike.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

TSSA have issued a comms out to members this evening saying they've received an improved offer from NR. No details just the below

Following a series of discussions with Network Rail, we are writing to inform members that we have received two seperate improved offers. One for Bands 1-4, the other for Bands 5 to 8 (and equivalent) and Controllers.

Bands 5 to 8 (and equivalent) and Controller Representatives met earlier today and agreed that we should put the offer to members, so you can take a view and have your say.

Members will be well aware that we have an industrial action mandate, including strike action for Bands 5-8 (and equivalent) and Controllers.

If you tell us you wish to accept the offer, we will inform the company of your decision.
If you tell us you want to reject the offer, we will issue formal notice to Network Rail that we intend to take strike action.
This will align us with your colleagues and fellow members in the 11 TOCs we served industrial action notice to yesterday. We are legally obliged to give a minimum 14 days notice for industrial action, therefore, the referendum will be issued this week, and will close at 12 noon on the 4th August.

Full details of the offer will be sent to all relevant members as soon as we have everything in writing, and contained within one document from the employer.

The referendum will be held electronically and members will receive further details on the offer along with an invitation to vote within the next 48 hours.

Bands 1-4 Representatives will be meeting later this week to consider the improved offer and deciding if it is worth putting to the members for review.

So if NR can come up with an improved offer for TSSA members why not RMT?

 

[Starmill]

Apart from previous strikes & the like, I always think of the aftermath of Hatfield in 2000. Month upon month of a decimated long distance train service across the entire UK with hundreds of miles of 20mph running due to GCC. A few decent advertising campaigns & some eye catching offers soon had the public back on board in their droves & numbers along with revenue soon went back into growth again.

There was some very significant long term scarring as a result of the Hatfield crash, and growth in journeys was way behind general population growth for years afterwards, in addition to the pretty serious freight issues already mentioned. The scarring from Covid will of course be far greater. Simply seeing one train that looks busy (note it is the day before a near total shut down, of course today was going to be busier...) masks the true picture of a service which is permanently earning less than it was because of a mixture of service cuts, unreliability and permanent structural changes. The issue is that costs have risen significantly faster than revenues for many years now, and that is the stick with which the government will beat the industry. Obviously some people will take thw view that none of this matters because it has always been fine before from the early 90s until now. But the people left who were using or working on the Buxton and Mid Cheshire lines aren't taking that view for example, because their second train per hour has been withdrawn or will never be introduced respectively because of a lack of demand. That's just as bad for the crews who would have been working those extra services as it is for the people who would have travelled on them.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

TSSA have issued a comms out to members this evening saying they've received an improved offer from NR. No details just the below


So if NR can come up with an improved offer for TSSA members why not RMT?

TSSA members don't have anywhere as near major T & C changes than RMT members do.

Think current deal would have already been accpeted by RMT if the modernising maintenance changes weren't happening.

 

[lammergeier]

WMT are in the bizarre position that they have an agreement with ASLEF that Driver Managers are not permitted to drive trains. Hence no service.

Surely in the event of industrial action normal agreements go out of the window? I'm amazed the company would honour an agreement for DTMs not to drive trains during strike action. Those agreements are generally in place for normal service running.

 

[Starmill]

Surely in the event of industrial action normal agreements go out of the window? I'm amazed the company would honour an agreement for DTMs not to drive trains during strike action. Those agreements are generally in place for normal service running.

The company will not be under a binding obligation to uphold that agreement, no. But the benefit of removing it would probably be microscopic, as it would release just a small handful of train drivers who may or may not actually be able to work. All the while it would inflame the dispute further.

If they thought it would shift the dial I'm sure that they would do it. For example, sometimes car parking at work is provided for free but is not a contracted right. Employers have thus been known to withdraw parking permits from those who have taken strike action, so if driving to work, they would have to pay to park there.

 

[Starmill]

So if NR can come up with an improved offer for TSSA members why not RMT?

It sounds to me like the difference is because of the red line on phasing of discussion at RMT, which isn't there at TSSA.

 

[gazzaa2]

Fantastic list. I’ve never had great opinions of Truss, but these proposals are very promising.

The Tories propose a lot of things. THey just rarely deliver them.

 

[Class 170101]

The Tories propose a lot of things. THey just rarely deliver them.

Around union stuff they almost certainly will deliver. Operation Red Meat.

 

[Bantamzen]

You don't think it's the Government doing the provocation then?


I think that this....



....is the whole purpose of provoking the strikes.
Let's be honest, these proposals will have been written out in detail by Senior Civil Servants, and just given to one of the finalists in the leadership election to make it look like someone can swoop in and control the chaos. Chaos which has been stirred up by rubbish pay offers coupled with worsening terms and conditions.

Once in, those items make it harder to go on strike, harder to stay on strike, harder to threaten a strike. Meaning terms and conditions and pay can be eroded much more effectively. Not just on the railway, but everywhere.

TOCs acting under 'government guidance' - why else would East Midlands Railway (EMR) not be in a position to make a pay offer for January 2022? Not even an offer of 0%. Just no offer at all.

This is politics, and the government doesn't care about the passengers or the "working families" which they use as a soundbite to make it sound like they do (because we are at a point where BOTH parents have to work full time and the children be brought by institutionalised childcare - and they don't care about that).

If a TOC is not even making a really rubbish offer, but no offer at all, then someone is pulling the strings.



DFC=District Functional Council
EC = Executive Committee

"This is politcs"......

<starts slow clapping>

Finally people in the rail industry are starting to get it. Of course its politics, its politicians and their administration that are currently calling the shots. And they are calling the shots because the private sector is dumping the franchise system as quick as they can, as private investors see a giant money pit opening up in front of them. So the government has had to step in and pump more subsidy and even form their own companies to bail the industry out (and make no mistake this is exactly what is happening), and add to that the extra £18 billion (if I recall correctly) put into to the industry during covid measures to prevent widescale furloughing of staff & even job losses. RMT's response to that? Inflation matching (or close to) wage demands plus few if any changes to T&Cs, or else! What the heck did they or their membership expect?

Of course as we've seen this has been compounded by Boris being finally toppled and a leadership battle narrowed down to two determined, strong willed, and frankly ruthless candidates, both desperate for a target to go after to gain votes from their party. Oh look, the RMT have painted big targets on all the industry's backs because they daftly thought that they could stare down what they thought was a weak government. And whilst they were partly right in so much that the PM was on his last legs, being two years away from a general election means that the Tories have probably got the leadership challenge abut right because it gives them plenty of room to regroup from the Autumn. And that's when they might just come after your industry. Folk like me have been warning about what risks might lie ahead by taking on this fight right now, but have been shouted down by rail workers telling us we don't know anything about the industry. But you don't need to know anything about it, you just need to observe politics & what's happened to other unions down the years.

So yes, this is political. And as I've said to others in the industry, if you don't want it to be political then you as an industry need to find a way to woo back private investors & make them money. Simple right?

 

[E16 Cyclist]

One thing occurred to me reading those Truss proposals. What if instead of a national rail strike there was a indefinite national work to rule instead.

Would a service level of 70% be met if across the board nobody worked any overtime or showed any flexibility or goodwill?

Imagine the incredulity of the telegraph or the mail that workers aren’t doing not in their contracts which helps the industry to operate

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was in Italy recently when there was a strike and they had to provide some services between designated times - not all routes were provided with this though.

From what I could see from the TI web site, the statutory service is an hourly stopper on many lines, and no fast long-distance trains.

 

[Lancy99]

One thing occurred to me reading those Truss proposals. What if instead of a national rail strike there was a indefinite national work to rule instead.

Would a service level of 70% be met if across the board nobody worked any overtime or showed any flexibility or goodwill?

Imagine the incredulity of the telegraph or the mail that workers aren’t doing not in their contracts which helps the industry to operate

Doubt anything near 70% would be achievable, most depots rely solely on RDW and the odd favour. Training would also grind to a halt immediately.

 

[Watershed]

From what I could see from the TI web site, the statutory service is an hourly stopper on many lines, and no fast long-distance trains.

There are separate strike timetables for Regionale (stopper) and Frecce (intercity high speed) trains. Often strikes will just be with one of these divisions. Both timetables are quite limited but they at least allow most people to commute to work, for instance.