Railway Keys Often For Sale On Ebay

[cjmillsnun]

There is a master key currently on eBay for 4.99.

I'm not linking to it, but it is there.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Check out Unipart Rail. Their online catalogue has illustrations of dozens of railway keys. A Google on "BR1 key" will find them. Anyone can look at it!

I can only conclude that the railways just don't care about security!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can only conclude that the railways just don't care about security!

Quite possibly not. If you get into a cab, what *exactly* are you going to do with the train, and how far do you think you'd get?

Neil

 

[PermitToTravel]

Stockholm cleaner incident

More seriously, things like cables and/or rail theft are actual problems

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stockholm cleaner incident

More seriously, things like cables and/or rail theft are actual problems

True, but you can't realistically secure the open line effectively (beyond a big fence), and that's where most of that goes on.

Neil

 

[SPADTrap]

Quite possibly not. If you get into a cab, what *exactly* are you going to do with the train, and how far do you think you'd get?

Neil

Move it when/where it shouldn't!

 

[SignalSighting]

The key to worry about is the S&T Grandmaster. You could cause a lot of chaos, death and destruction with one of those and a length of wire.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's one of the ones pictured in the aforementioned catalogue!

 

[BestWestern]

I think perhaps this is somewhere that the oft-mentioned but seemingly invisible Transec need to get involved. If the selling of staff-issue railway keys constitutes a transport security risk, which it does, then it should be under their remit. In facilitating the sale of these items, ebay is potentially assisting in illegal activity. As a government body, Transec should be able to put a stop to it.

 

[whhistle]

While an interesting topic, is it one for you personally to worry about?
If you're that worried, why not buy all the keys and return them to Network Rail?

 

[lincolnshire]

I think perhaps this is somewhere that the oft-mentioned but seemingly invisible Transec need to get involved. If the selling of staff-issue railway keys constitutes a transport security risk, which it does, then it should be under their remit. In facilitating the sale of these items, ebay is potentially assisting in illegal activity. As a government body, Transec should be able to put a stop to it.

You keep quoting Transec, its that important you have to put all of trances into google before you get anything and even then its very vague, its does,t say that railway keys should not be sold on E.Bay. the average key that I have seen on e.bay e.g. carriage key isn,t hardly a security key in this day and age, used in all sorts of places a very similar key thats capable of been used on the railway and elsewhere.

Its all the agency staff and contractors running round with keys they should not have thats more important.

 

[ADRboy]

The key to worry about is the S&T Grandmaster. You could cause a lot of chaos, death and destruction with one of those and a length of wire.

Any info on what a Grandmaster is? Is that a job title, with corresponding key?

Sounds interesting!

 

[SPADTrap]

You keep quoting Transec, its that important you have to put all of trances into google before you get anything and even then its very vague, its does,t say that railway keys should not be sold on E.Bay. the average key that I have seen on e.bay e.g. carriage key isn,t hardly a security key in this day and age, used in all sorts of places a very similar key thats capable of been used on the railway and elsewhere.

Its all the agency staff and contractors running round with keys they should not have thats more important.

And you keep 'attacking' and blaming agency staff without anything to back it up with?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While an interesting topic, is it one for you personally to worry about?
If you're that worried, why not buy all the keys and return them to Network Rail?

If they've got a key to access the cab I'm driving from then quite rightly so!

 

[BestWestern]

You keep quoting Transec, its that important you have to put all of trances into google before you get anything and even then its very vague, its does,t say that railway keys should not be sold on E.Bay. the average key that I have seen on e.bay e.g. carriage key isn,t hardly a security key in this day and age, used in all sorts of places a very similar key thats capable of been used on the railway and elsewhere.

Its all the agency staff and contractors running round with keys they should not have thats more important.

Not sure that I 'keep quoting' it, it is merely the government body who concern themselves with railway security. In particular, they are responsible for regular staff briefings regarding the need to ensure that premises and rolling stock are secure, as well as more public elements such as those endless security announcements. Their remit being such as it is, this topic is a matter that they are likely best placed to deal with. Railway staff will be only too aware of who they are and the role they fulfill; there is less reason for the general public to be familiar with them.

 

[headshot119]

Any info on what a Grandmaster is? Is that a job title, with corresponding key?

Sounds interesting!

It's a key, part of a series of keys, for example there's a submaster key as well.

There not particularly hard to get hold of either, and it's not just NR who use them. For example the sub station down the road from my house at uni is locked with a grand master.

 

[matchmaker]

It's a key, part of a series of keys, for example there's a submaster key as well.

There not particularly hard to get hold of either, and it's not just NR who use them. For example the sub station down the road from my house at uni is locked with a grand master.

It can be locked with a grand master, but will probably have a unique key as well. "Lock suiting" is very common.

Master keyed (MK)
A master-keyed system involves each lock having its own individual key which will not operate any other lock in the system, but where all locks can be operated by a single master-key. This is usually applied in commercial environments.

Grand master keyed (GMK)
This is an extension of the master-keyed system where each lock has its own individual key and the locks are divided into 2 or more groups. Each lock group is operated by a master-key and the entire system is operated by one grand master-key. This is ideally utilized in complex commercial systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_lock

 

[AnonymousUser1]

t5here are various none railway keys with similar issues

from the humble radar key, through to the now obselete TD26 which 15 or so years ago would have got you into an awful lot of the ambulances in the UK via the back doors

 

[Flamingo]

Also already for sale on ebay:- VTEC lanyard

I took an FGW one off somebody once, who waved it at me instead of producing a ticket (which he did have on investigation). The fact him and his buddy were in shorts and flip-flops made me a bit suspicious!

He said he'd got it from a friend, so I gave him the option of giving it to me, or explaining to BTP whyhe was in reciept of stolen property. His mate had a drivers hi-vis bag (which he had pointed at whenasked for a ticket!), same issue as FGW use but no logo on it so I couldn't do anything about that.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The drivers hi vis bags (are they the orange rucksacks?) are generally available from most work wear shops.

 

[Nym]

I have a couple of them, neither of them are logoed up though.

I tend to use my Facom or Targus bags most of the time though, the cheap hi vis ones (portwest somethingorother) are absolutely useless unless you have a single bulky item one of the interlocks I designed fits perfectly.

 

[Mojo]

Quite possibly not. If you get into a cab, what *exactly* are you going to do with the train, and how far do you think you'd get?

Well perhaps you could plant something in an un-used cab (e.g. the rear cab or the middle cab of multiple units) that is not supposed to be there, and because there are no customers or staff present, the item would not be noticed?

 

[tsr]

Well perhaps you could plant something in an un-used cab (e.g. the rear cab or the middle cab of multiple units) that is not supposed to be there, and because there are no customers or staff present, the item would not be noticed?

A good guard/conductor will/should check the security and contents of intermediate cabs if they have a moment, and back cabs if they've been vacated for long enough for a problem to emerge.

Unfortunately, in practice, the available time to do so does vary considerably. But some people might be surprised how often intermediate/back cabs get looked into by members of staff with a good reason to do so.

 

[Mojo]

A good guard/conductor will/should check the security and contents of intermediate cabs if they have a moment, and back cabs if they've been vacated for long enough for a problem to emerge.

And on DOO trains? Plus don't some Tocs have policies that guards are to remain in a certain unit?

 

[tsr]

And on DOO trains? Plus don't some Tocs have policies that guards are to remain in a certain unit?

DOO is a different story - this is yet another of those situations which goes to show that security and safety can be compromised by this mode of operation. Luckily, however, DOO TOCs may have drivers travelling "pass" (as passengers) between their diagrammed workings in the cabs, and indeed apart from GTR and some GEML routes, DOO services are mostly for fairly short distances where the driver is more likely to be changing ends, so at least rear cabs will be opened.

Many TOCs with non-gangway stock do require any guards/conductors to travel in the rear unit, or as appropriate in a consist of more than 2 units (SWT springs to mind, with the 456s). With typical operation of just 2 units coupled together, this would mean three cabs could be regularly inhabited/checked, with the rear cab of the front unit being likely to be able to be seen from the front cab of the rear unit to some limited degree, and potentially also being checked during dwell times, reversals or turnaround.

I'm not sure how well this can be dealt with on the Tube, for example, where I suppose you can have cabs completely left unattended for very long periods of time if there are no drivers needing to travel in them, especially not for the full length of the journey.

 

[Mojo]

I'm not sure how well this can be dealt with on the Tube, for example, where I suppose you can have cabs completely left unattended for very long periods of time if there are no drivers needing to travel in them, especially not for the full length of the journey.

On Underground trains cabs and other secure cabinets (such as shunting controls) are fitted with an intruder alarm which sounds in the driving cab. The Train Operator then goes back to investigate, or the Service Controller arranges for station staff to inspect.

 

[Tom B]

T keys are inherently not secure, for starters they are issued to people in many different jobs as it is a low security, robust lock - so many people may have cause to carry one. Not to mention the things which can be used to open such a lock (if I don't have a T-key I carry a suitable flatblade screwdriver instead). A cabinet secured only by a T-key should not be called 'secure'!

I presume that issue of keys etc is more stringent these days and records kept, although the geographical size of the railways causes problems you don't see elsewhere (for example, as I have lots of high security keys at work, I must keep them at work and sign them out/in with security each day - I can't take them home and theoretically can't even take them off the premises to the corner shop to buy lunch. Such a system wouldn't work with such a huge network with people signing on/off at many different places, though).

 

[AndyW33]

T keys are inherently not secure, for starters they are issued to people in many different jobs as it is a low security, robust lock - so many people may have cause to carry one. Not to mention the things which can be used to open such a lock (if I don't have a T-key I carry a suitable flatblade screwdriver instead). A cabinet secured only by a T-key should not be called 'secure'!

Absolutely. Since before the Second World War access panels on buses and coaches have been secured with locks using T Keys. This was never to stop members of the public from opening the access panels, rather to stop the access panels from coming open accidentally on the move without having protruding handles to open and close them when needed.
As a result just about everyone who has ever been a bus driver or a member of the maintenance staff has been issued with them at one time or another. They weren't a security controlled item because in the bus industry they served no security purpose whatever, anything that was meant to be secure had a proper lock with proper keys.
Just think how many bus industry T-keys must be out there somewhere.....

 

[pne]

Also already for sale on ebay:- VTEC lanyard

£12.50! hock:

£21 now....

 

[Nevillehill]

You can forget the ex staff in some cases as when your out and about its amazing just how many agency staff , contractors etc have all the keys needed to get to places these days, it seems there is no control whatsoever these days over who has them.

I remember years ago if we wanted to go in a Relay Room we had to borrow the key from an S & T person and return it after we had finished and we was also B.R. staff of the ODM department, as we was not allowed one.

All this just seemed to collapse after Railtrack took over and now under Network Rail seems to have got worse, just stop the station cat and see how many keys it has hung round its neck so that it can get anywhere it wants to wether it should be there or not.

When I worked as agency staff we signed out the key after each shift , many trainspotters have keys aswell, ideal for access into the old mk1 buffet cars ect.
And usually its ex staff wo sel their keys aswell as bardic lamps.

 

[JaJaWa]

£21 now....

It went for £40 in the end. Have to wonder what people are doing with these that it's worth that investment.