RDG response to RMT's recent "road map" proposal.

[yorksrob]

Bit in bold - 97% weren't fraudulent (by value) - I hardly think 3% is "rampant fraud".

£1.1bn of COVID small business loans identified as fraud, claims government source

The eye watering figure could only be the start, says Reuters, after £47bn was handed out to firms during the pandemic.

news.sky.com

It's about *choice* you *don't have to* use the rail service, *you choose* to go gallivanting around the country on lightly used services heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. You could use a bus or car, for example.

However in every society there is an expectation that there will be a criminal justice system which includes jails, to protect people from criminals, which is paid for from tax revenues.

Not all countries have a rail network, all countries have state run prisons.

Yet this Government are determined to screw over paying rail passengers.

They are scum whom we deserve to be rid of.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Bit in bold - 97% weren't fraudulent (by value) - I hardly think 3% is "rampant fraud".

You’ve quoted an article from a whole year ago which says it “might just be the start of it”.

HMRC stated in early 2023 they think £4.5bn was lost to fraud and error. I’m sure this has revised upwards in the six months since that report. But even so, still enough to pay the railways’ dispute costs for a decade.

As you were.

 

[Facing Back]

But let’s assume they’re right. Cost of settling: £0.5bn a year. Cost of not settling: £1.4bn a year.

Cost of settling, £0.5bn a year. Cost of not settling, £1.4bn for 1 year only and zero after that.

 

[yorksrob]

Bit in bold - 97% weren't fraudulent (by value) - I hardly think 3% is "rampant fraud".

£1.1bn of COVID small business loans identified as fraud, claims government source

The eye watering figure could only be the start, says Reuters, after £47bn was handed out to firms during the pandemic.

news.sky.com

It's about *choice* you *don't have to* use the rail service, *you choose* to go gallivanting around the country on lightly used services heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. You could use a bus or car, for example.

However in every society there is an expectation that there will be a criminal justice system which includes jails, to protect people from criminals, which is paid for from tax revenues.

Not all countries have a rail network, all countries have state run prisons.

I do have to use the rail service as there is no realistic alternative for longer distance journeys.

This is the bit that they forget (see the ticket office fiasco). Nevermind. They will pay.

 

[A0wen]

Yet this Government are determined to screw over paying rail passengers.

They are scum whom we deserve to be rid of.

You'll get a vote in due course.

But don't expect Labour to do anything different, after all in 1964 they were elected on a "Stop Beeching" manifesto and when in office closed more than Beeching recommended and in 1997 said they were opposed to rail privatisation and apart from forcing Railtrack into administration (which was a highly dubious act legally and damaged trust in the government where business was concerned probably resulting in increased costs) did nothing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Cost of settling, £0.5bn a year. Cost of not settling, £1.4bn for 1 year only and zero after that.

Yet we’re now into the second year of the dispute.

Settling would have cost £1bn. Not settling has cost £3bn and counting.

Because if the dispute continues, the cost of the dispute continues too.

Even if the unions throw in the towel today, we’re still £2bn down on where we should have been.

It’s all about that taxpayer value.

 

[A0wen]

I do have to use the rail service as there is no realistic alternative for longer distance journeys.

This is the bit that they forget (see the ticket office fiasco). Nevermind. They will pay.

No - you *don't have to travel* that's the choice.

You *choose* to travel and *choose* to travel by train. Nobody is forcing you to travel or travel by train.

You’ve quoted an article from a whole year ago which says it “might just be the start of it”.

HMRC stated in early 2023 they think £4.5bn was lost to fraud and error. I’m sure this has revised upwards in the six months since that report. But even so, still enough to pay the railways’ dispute costs for a decade.

As you were.

Not comparing like for like - that second article says "Fraud and error", the first was only fraud.

 

[yorksrob]

You'll get a vote in due course.

But don't expect Labour to do anything different, after all in 1964 they were elected on a "Stop Beeching" manifesto and when in office closed more than Beeching recommended and in 1997 said they were opposed to rail privatisation and apart from forcing Railtrack into administration (which was a highly dubious act legally and damaged trust in the government where business was concerned probably resulting in increased costs) did nothing.

Too long. This "government" has no legitimacy.

 

[Facing Back]

Yet we’re now into the second year of the dispute.

Settling would have cost £1bn. Not settling has cost £3bn and counting.

Great value.

Yep, I'll give you it is more than 1 year cost. It is likely a moot argument as most here expect that the deal will eventually be at the rises already discussed and probably back dated to a degree. The real equation is the cost of the dispute against the savings achieved by the modernisation - and I don't recall seeing any figures for that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not comparing like for like - that second article says "Fraud and error", the first was only fraud.

Still money spaffed up the wall- that’s the official description I believe- by our zombie government.

“Error” being the official euphemism for “fraud but we can’t (or often, more accurately, don’t want to)prove it”, of course.

 

[A0wen]

Too long. This "government" has no legitimacy.

It has the same legitimacy the last Labour government had. Nothing has changed in terms of a government's "legitimacy", however much you may not like it.

 

[yorksrob]

It has the same legitimacy the last Labour government had. Nothing has changed in terms of a government's "legitimacy", however much you may not like it.

Tripe.

The last labour government didn't run the country into the ground for ideology.

MP's propping up this sham government are a disgrace.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The real equation is the cost of the dispute against the savings achieved by the modernisation - and I don't recall seeing any figures for that.

You won’t.

The “modernisation” consists of converting voluntary overtime into compulsory overtime. You may make a small saving on inducements as you don’t need to sweeten the deal to attract volunteers if the overtime is mandatory.

So you won’t see Steve “Avanti” Montgomery go into detail, because it’ll blow his whole argument out of the water.

But don't expect Labour to do anything different

Depends how you define different.

I can’t see Starmer promising 50% pay rises to all, guillotining the rich whilst singing L’Internationale.

I can see Labour governing with more competence and integrity than Mark “I’m the immigration minister and I employed an illegal immigrant for seven years- whoopsie” Harper.

Mind you, I could see Bodger and Badger governing with more competence than this lot…

 

[Facing Back]

The “modernisation” consists of converting voluntary overtime into compulsory overtime. You may make a small saving on inducements as you don’t need to sweeten the deal to attract volunteers if the overtime is mandatory.

The compulsory overtime is not something I fully agree with, I don't like the principle, but as it is in place across large parts of the railway already, and as it is common practice in many other industries too I don't get to excited about the injustice. But I can quite understand why railway workers want it to change.

The modernisation consists of much more than this and you very well know it. Typically these programmes have a business case which has benefits with large variances and margins or error so they cannot be published without serious explanation - and generally are best consumed at a very high level, so I'm not surprised it is not published but I am very sure that it exists. Myself and my company have been involved in any number of this type of programme (not in the rail industry) so you will have to forgive me if I don't take you at face value.

Tripe.

The last labour government didn't run the country into the ground for ideology.

MP's propping up this sham government are a disgrace.

So your argument is that this government is illegitimate because you don't agree with their ideology but the last unelected labour government was legitimate because you did? Ok....

 

[yorksrob]

The compulsory overtime is not something I fully agree with, I don't like the principle, but as it is in place across large parts of the railway already, and as it is common practice in many other industries too I don't get to excited about the injustice. But I can quite understand why railway workers want it to change.

The modernisation consists of much more than this and you very well know it. Typically these programmes have a business case which has benefits with large variances and margins or error so they cannot be published without serious explanation - and generally are best consumed at a very high level, so I'm not surprised it is not published but I am very sure that it exists. Myself and my company have been involved in any number of this type of programme (not in the rail industry) so you will have to forgive me if I don't take you at face value.


So your argument is that this government is illegitimate because you don't agree with their ideology but the last unelected labour government was legitimate because you did? Ok....

No, the Government is illegitimate because they ran the country into the ground and chose to carry on instead of having a general election.

Of course a Tory will see nothing untoward in the events of last year, they're so swivel-eyed and deluded..

 

[A0wen]

Tripe.

The last labour government didn't run the country into the ground for ideology.

MP's propping up this sham government are a disgrace.

Well actually they did, just a different ideology.

Raiding private pensions when told not to because of the impact it would have.

Forcing Railtrack into administration.

Allowing open door immigration fron Europe and then accusing anyone who dared question it of being a racist.

Iraq.

Running a deficit at the height of an economic boom and dishonestly claiming to be "Keyesian" - Keynes would have been spinning in his grave at such recklessness.

Bailing out Northern Rock and doing a dodgy deal to sell HBoS to Lloyds, screwing Lloyds over - funny how both Northen Rock and HBoS were headquartered in safe Labour heartlands.

 

[yorksrob]

Well actually they did, just a different ideology.

Raiding private pensions when told not to because of the impact it would have.

Forcing Railtrack into administration.

Allowing open door immigration fron Europe and then accusing anyone who dared question it of being a racist.

Iraq.

Running a deficit at the height of an economic boom and dishonestly claiming to be "Keyesian" - Keynes would have been spinning in his grave at such recklessness.

Bailing out Northern Rock and doing a dodgy deal to sell HBoS to Lloyds, screwing Lloyds over - funny how both Northen Rock and HBoS were headquartered in safe Labour heartlands.

Yet with all of that, they kept the train service running, which the current cretins are incapable of.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Myself and my company have been involved in any number of this type of programme (not in the rail industry) so you will have to forgive me if I don't take you at face value.

There are many ways of modernising working practices to increase productivity and/or reduce staff overheads. Some more practical than others.

In the railway industry there are no such proposals. “Modernisation” means mandatory overtime. Nothing more, nothing less.

Take the ticket office thing. They’re going to save money by moving someone out of a ticket office and putting them by a TVM. The only logical way this will save money is by reducing headcount, but RDG say they’re not going to reduce headcount. So either RDG are lying about saving money or RDG are lying about their intentions relating to headcount. Take your pick.

TfL under Johnson did the same thing and swore blind they wouldn’t reduce headcount. It must be pure coincidence that Queensway, Marble Arch, Lancaster Gate, and Holland Park tube stations now have opening hours best described as ‘inconsistent’.

 

[Facing Back]

No, the Government is illegitimate because they ran the country into the ground and chose to carry on instead of having a general election.

Of course a Tory will see nothing untoward in the events of last year, they're so swivel-eyed and deluded..

If you're talking about the Liz Truss debacle and the constant and increasing infighting then I agree that the parliamentary Conservative party is beset with a particularly toxic sense of self entitled arrogance and are well due a spell out of office.

I'm still going to think that you can think them incompetent, but if you think them illegitimate I'm afraid you are going to have to stage a coup or join the Lib Dems.

If you are talking about the current dispute - then in the plague on both of your houses point at the moment.

 

[Krokodil]

It's about *choice* you *don't have to* use the rail service, *you choose* to go gallivanting around the country on lightly used services heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. You could use a bus or car, for example.

However in every society there is an expectation that there will be a criminal justice system which includes jails, to protect people from criminals, which is paid for from tax revenues.

Everyone benefits from the UK's rail network. Well, apart from the PM whose helicopter isn't likely to get caught in the congestion that would result if all of those passengers and all of that freight were to switch to road haulage.

 

[yorksrob]

If you're talking about the Liz Truss debacle and the constant and increasing infighting then I agree that the parliamentary Conservative party is beset with a particularly toxic sense of self entitled arrogance and are well due a spell out of office.

I'm still going to think that you can think them incompetent, but if you think them illegitimate I'm afraid you are going to have to stage a coup or join the Lib Dems.

If you are talking about the current dispute - then in the plague on both of your houses point at the moment.

If the Tory party had any sense of self-belief/honour after the Liz Truss debacle, they should have held a general election.

If you are talking about the current dispute - then in the plague on both of your houses point at the moment.

Maybe, but the Tory party have given me reason to mistrust them.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You’ve quoted an article from a whole year ago which says it “might just be the start of it”.

HMRC stated in early 2023 they think £4.5bn was lost to fraud and error. I’m sure this has revised upwards in the six months since that report. But even so, still enough to pay the railways’ dispute costs for a decade.

As you were.

PPE contracts are where the real fraud was. Most of it was useless but the Tory mates who got the contracts without any checks got paid handsomely and in many cases also got paid to dispose of it. The government’s own counter fraud unit identified a high level of fraud in these contracts but Sunak has shut down any further legal challenges because its not in the public interest.

 

[Krokodil]

The compulsory overtime is not something I fully agree with, I don't like the principle, but as it is in place across large parts of the railway already, and as it is common practice in many other industries too I don't get to excited about the injustice. But I can quite understand why railway workers want it to change.

TfW are one of the companies that have "committed Sundays", a practice dating back to ATW days. It's not very effective at getting everything covered, it's toothless when a Sunday turn falls on a vacant line for example. With no spare cover you are still reliant upon volunteers to avoid cancellations. Hence why TfW is moving towards getting Sundays inside the week, complete with spare cover.

 

[Facing Back]

Yet with all of that, they kept the train service running, which the current cretins are incapable of.

Which is clearly the most important function of government . The rest is irrelevant.

 

[Krokodil]

Which is clearly the most important function of government . The rest is irrelevant.

They kept the other services going reasonably well too. Not perfectly, but a damned sight better than how things are at the moment.

 

[Facing Back]

TfW are one of the companies that have "committed Sundays", a practice dating back to ATW days. It's not very effective at getting everything covered, it's toothless when a Sunday turn falls on a vacant line for example. With no spare cover you are still reliant upon volunteers to avoid cancellations. Hence why TfW is moving towards getting Sundays inside the week, complete with spare cover.

Thanks. I get it and I agree that setting up a 7 day railway as exactly that is the right strategic approach. I dislike the approach of regular and repeated forced overtime to cover totally predictable requirements. I think it has its place to cover unusual or seasonal/high demand issues. I would have preferred the RMT to have been negotiating around a pathway towards that with overtime as the bridge rather than to reject all changes be default.

 

[yorksrob]

Which is clearly the most important function of government . The rest is irrelevant.

.
Thatcher kept the trains running.

Major kept the trains running.

Blair kept the trains running.

What has Sunak to offer that I'm supposed to settle for endless disruption for ? Nothing but a failed non- government.

Thanks. I get it and I agree that setting up a 7 day railway as exactly that is the right strategic approach. I dislike the approach of regular and repeated forced overtime to cover totally predictable requirements. I think it has its place to cover unusual or seasonal/high demand issues. I would have preferred the RMT to have been negotiating around a pathway towards that with overtime as the bridge rather than to reject all changes be default.

You clearly don't get it for me.

 

[Facing Back]

They kept the other services going reasonably well too. Not perfectly, but a damned sight better than how things are at the moment.

Yes, there is truth in that. In a time where the economy globally was accelerating towards a high, they were able to spend a great deal and focus on outcomes, not value. Which is pretty much what the Torys did with Covid PPE. When there is less growth, then the slack in the system becomes more visible.

.
Thatcher kept the trains running.

Major kept the trains running.

Blair kept the trains running.

What has Sunak to offer that I'm supposed to settle for endless disruption for ? Nothing but a failed non- government.

Gosh - you are praising Margaret Thatcher? There is something I didn't think I would see

You clearly don't get it for me.

Then we respectfully agree to disagree.

I am enjoying this debate while it lasts - but I'm pretty sure I'll get told off for being off topic and it will locked soon

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, there is truth in that. In a time where the economy globally was accelerating towards a high, they were able to spend a great deal and focus on outcomes, not value. Which is pretty much what the Torys did with Covid PPE. When there is less growth, then the slack in the system becomes more visible.


Gosh - you are praising Margaret Thatcher? There is something I didn't think I would see


Then we respectfully agree to disagree.

Maggie kept the trains running.

Sunak couldn't give a tinkers cuss.

What is there to misunderstand ?

]

Then we respectfully agree to disagree.

I am enjoying this debate while it lasts - but I'm pretty sure I'll get told off for being off topic and it will locked soon

You are clearly very comfortable about not having a working train service.

 

[Facing Back]

Maggie kept the trains running.

Sunak couldn't give a tinkers cuss.

What is there to misunderstand ?

I was talking about mandatory overtime to someone else and I "got" their comment. It had nothing to do with your political views. Which you are quite clear about.