Redhill today (25/2/18) - What a shambles

[CyrusWuff]

A better plan for the buses would be to run many Redhill - Three Bridges non stop plus Redhill - Gatwick only with either some continuing to 3B or separate Gatwick - 3B shuttle.

They eventually settled down to three different stopping patterns:

• Redhill - Gatwick (non-stop)
• Redhill - Gatwick - Three Bridges
• Redhill - Three Bridges (all stations)

 

[londonbridge]

I wasn't aware of the full extent of the engineering work, got up to Camden last night for my gig okay, got back to Vic at around 22:50 and wondered why there seemed to be no fast trains to Croydon, first train available was a stopper to Caterham at 23:10.

 

[James Wake]

Any evidence of local cab firms/Uber taking liberties during the disruption?

I heard some people saying that taxis wanted £30.

I was at Redhill briefly having arrived from Dorking Deepdene at about 1630. I estimate there was 2,000 people there at one point and the organisation was terrible. I got a service bus home to Crawley, all the 100s I saw left full, so I walked to Redhill High Street to pick up the 420 coming in from Sutton before it got to Redhill Bus Station. I got a good seat no problem, but at the Bus Station, we ended up loading there for 15 minutes, with the 100 in front leaving rammed full and the next 400 arriving and taking some of the load. Problem is the driver of the 420 put "Set Down Only" up when he left Redhill, despite the fact there was at least 15 seats upstairs as many people had just squeezed on downstairs. As a result, despite the fact there was space, people at local stops further down were left behind. Tickets were not being accepted on Metrobus, so everyone was being forced to pay, some people trying to use Oyster which just slowed everything down.

 

[James Wake]

I see GWR switched their Gatwick passengers onto buses at Reigate, rather than Redhill. Seems to have been a very wise decision!

The conductor on my GWR train from Dorking Deepdene was telling people for Gatwick to please change at Reigate as Redhill is really busy. It worked as most passengers got off the train at Reigate.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Reading this thread alongside the item in the March 2018 edition of Modern Railways ("The Thameslink Infrastructure Challenge") I note that renewal of Earlswood Junction is one of the "highlights" of the £300million DFT-funded asset resilience package. As I understand it, this £300m is over and above 'business as usual' and yet further complemented by funding brought forward from Control Period 6 according to the article.

I also understand that bus-replacement costs are (broadly) covered by Network Rail under the Schedule 4 Restrictions of Use regime in GTR's track access agreement.

So, with all of this money available why on Earth is anybody scrimping on a few shifts for queue marshalls, some standby buses and what-have-you?

"This is an extraordinarily deep change in timetabling - maybe it is the most significant the industry has ever known" according to John Halsall, the Network Rail South East Route Managing Director.

 

[infobleep]

I see GWR switched their Gatwick passengers onto buses at Reigate, rather than Redhill. Seems to have been a very wise decision!

That is standard practice regardless of numbers at Redhill.

 

[yorksrob]

Reading this thread alongside the item in the March 2018 edition of Modern Railways ("The Thameslink Infrastructure Challenge") I note that renewal of Earlswood Junction is one of the "highlights" of the £300million DFT-funded asset resilience package. As I understand it, this £300m is over and above 'business as usual' and yet further complemented by funding brought forward from Control Period 6 according to the article.

I also understand that bus-replacement costs are (broadly) covered by Network Rail under the Schedule 4 Restrictions of Use regime in GTR's track access agreement.

So, with all of this money available why on Earth is anybody scrimping on a few shifts for queue marshalls, some standby buses and what-have-you?

"This is an extraordinarily deep change in timetabling - maybe it is the most significant the industry has ever known" according to John Halsall, the Network Rail South East Route Managing Director.

Surely the real question is why blockade a perfectly good diversionary route at Sutton when you've got the BML shut north of Gatwick. Compared to this, bus steward quandries are incidental.

 

[Andyh82]

Sounds like a proper Horlicks, which has made the Today programme news on Radio 4.

I expect because it happened in the south east. If say the Preston to Blackpool blockade had gone wrong, it would have been restricted to an item on Radio Lancashire.

I also see the RMT have waded in and are demanding that GTR are stripped of their franchise.

 

[RJ]

Reading this thread alongside the item in the March 2018 edition of Modern Railways ("The Thameslink Infrastructure Challenge") I note that renewal of Earlswood Junction is one of the "highlights" of the £300million DFT-funded asset resilience package. As I understand it, this £300m is over and above 'business as usual' and yet further complemented by funding brought forward from Control Period 6 according to the article.

I also understand that bus-replacement costs are (broadly) covered by Network Rail under the Schedule 4 Restrictions of Use regime in GTR's track access agreement.

So, with all of this money available why on Earth is anybody scrimping on a few shifts for queue marshalls, some standby buses and what-have-you?

"This is an extraordinarily deep change in timetabling - maybe it is the most significant the industry has ever known" according to John Halsall, the Network Rail South East Route Managing Director.

There is lots and lots of money available. Southern book rail replacement buses when trains are running during planned engineering works - for example an intensive 10bph service on the New Cross Gate to Sydenham/Crystal Palace route when London Overground were running a full 8tph service. Buses have also supplemented the Clapham Junction to East Croydon all stops route every 10 minutes, with the bus taking 6x as long.

Money isn't the issue at all - there is an abundance available that is spent on these services. It depends on how it is planned, not just by Southern but by Network Rail and any contractors used for buses/customer service. It seems unlikely that 16bph would have been a planned service level given the numbers that were travelling so something else must have gone badly wrong. I recall when I drove an Abellio Greater Anglia route, they booked three buses per timetabled departure - can only assume Southen intended to do similar.

As for blocking several routes at once, that's Network Rail's doing.

 

[zoneking]

I wouldn't dream of travelling on a rail replacement bus unless I really had to. Buses at Redhill are chaotic at the best of times.
I did see 5 replacement buses at Epsom that morning - most of which were not in use. There was a rail service from Epsom to London Waterloo and Dorking, so buses were only needed to Sutton and beyond.

 

[Robsignals]

Hard to separate flows when the whole station and car park is just a huge throng of people. Need much better crowd control (and possibly a different location) to do that properly.

Bus station across the road, only 4 stands but probably spare 2 on Sundays.

 

[tsr]

Bus station across the road, only 4 stands but probably spare 2 on Sundays.

I believe the buses eventually resorted to using the (normally) little-used bus stop on Princess Way itself, adjacent to the car park and on the same side of the road as the railway station. That would have ended up allowing them to simply offload passengers, reload from the queue, and depart without turning in the car park. It would seem a rather sensible option, even if it does inconvenience car drivers a little. (And only a little, as it’s a dual carriageway with two lanes each way at that position). The same bus stop is approved for the large crowds travelling to Brockham for each year’s major bonfire in November, so it’s a tried and tested method.

...

Aside from this, I understand Earlswood (North) Junction has experienced a rather awkward points failure tonight. Not sure if any recently-renewed components are involved!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I wouldn't dream of travelling on a rail replacement bus unless I really had to. Buses at Redhill are chaotic at the best of times.
I did see 5 replacement buses at Epsom that morning - most of which were not in use. There was a rail service from Epsom to London Waterloo and Dorking, so buses were only needed to Sutton and beyond.

Epsom serves as the "bus stand" point between duties, so there are nearly always additional buses present here when there are substitutions in place locally.

 

[Sunset route]

We were talking about this at work yesterday and a far better plan would of been, terminate all trains from London in platform 3 main line shut south on to either of the two branches and alternate the departures to London from plafrorms 2 and 0 as to minimise the conflicting passenger flows in the subway.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I also see the RMT have waded in and are demanding that GTR are stripped of their franchise.

Are the RMT ever not demanding GTR are stripped of their franchise?

 

[XDM]

Are the RMT ever not demanding GTR are stripped of their franchise?

RMT want all TOCs & FOCs stripped of their franchises.

 

[Iggy12a]

Interesting recorded announcement being played over the tannoy at Gatwick this afternoon. They were apologizing for Sunday's delays, telling passengers to put in delay relay claims and to detail any additional associated expenses that had been incurred.
I wonder how generous they will be.

 

[Robsignals]

Interesting recorded announcement being played over the tannoy at Gatwick this afternoon. They were apologizing for Sunday's delays, telling passengers to put in delay relay claims and to detail any additional associated expenses that had been incurred.
I wonder how generous they will be.

GTR chief executive appeared before a Parliamentary comitee and said no one would be left out of pocket.

So to next Sunday 4/3 and there's a big footbore match at Brighton v Chelsea I think! GTR have said there WILL be lots more buses. ... Yes I think GX should operate express coaches from East Croydon.

 

[JonathanH]

GTR chief executive appeared before a Parliamentary comitee and said no one would be left out of pocket.

So to next Sunday 4/3 and there's a big footbore match at Brighton v Chelsea I think! GTR have said there WILL be lots more buses. ... Yes I think GX should operate express coaches from East Croydon.

Coaches from East Croydon would be a ridiculous idea given there is no speedy arterial route south from there to Gatwick. It would be 20-30 minutes before the coaches were on the M23.

They don't really have much choice about using Redhill for this. Purley has narrow steps (although a reasonable bus turning circle). Coulsdon Town isn't particularly accessible to lots of coaches. East Grinstead works and has reasonable interchange facilities but the combined journey time is longer than it is via Redhill.

 

[yorksrob]

Surely they haven't closed the route through Sutton as well again !

 

[LA50041]

Surely they haven't closed the route through Sutton as well again !

The Sutton route was scheduled to be closed due to the resignalling project, but this has been postponed, so trains running hourly vic-Horsham-Gatwick in addition to the Redhill + buses option on Sunday

 

[yorksrob]

The Sutton route was scheduled to be closed due to the resignalling project, but this has been postponed, so trains running hourly vic-Horsham-Gatwick in addition to the Redhill + buses option on Sunday

That sounds like a very sensible decision !

 

[tsr]

Coaches from East Croydon would be a ridiculous idea given there is no speedy arterial route south from there to Gatwick. It would be 20-30 minutes before the coaches were on the M23.

They don't really have much choice about using Redhill for this. Purley has narrow steps (although a reasonable bus turning circle). Coulsdon Town isn't particularly accessible to lots of coaches. East Grinstead works and has reasonable interchange facilities but the combined journey time is longer than it is via Redhill.

East Croydon is only really used overnight for coaches, when there are few reasonable alternatives.

Coulsdon Town has been used before for buses, with positive reports from all concerned. Purley is also a regular contender, and probably the best for off-peak times when it comes to a combination of 24/7 staffing, A23 access and bus facilities - though access can be a nightmare if it's anywhere nearing remotely busy on the roads.

East Grinstead usually works OK, but needs careful crowd management to avoid people rushing headlong across the station as trains depart.

The point about Redhill is really that it's as far south as possible in the circumstances, and therefore a theoretically shorter road journey. You'd have to run local bus services anyway, for customers wanting to travel from Redhill itself, and the line would remain open in this case for trains on the Tonbridge line. Problems are almost entirely avoidable, even with the less-than-perfect subway, and I believe lessons will actually have been learnt from the previous catastrophe.

The Sutton route was scheduled to be closed due to the resignalling project, but this has been postponed, so trains running hourly vic-Horsham-Gatwick in addition to the Redhill + buses option on Sunday

Very unusual in that those trains will be running non-stop from Victoria-Horsham. Understandable, though, if they can only put an hourly service together, which could be heavily loaded if those are the only trains advertised to Gatwick.

Unfortunately it looks like buses are still the only planned option for some of the intermediate stations from Dorking northwards!

 

[Robsignals]

Coaches from East Croydon would be a ridiculous idea given there is no speedy arterial route south from there to Gatwick. It would be 20-30 minutes before the coaches were on the M23.

They don't really have much choice about using Redhill for this. Purley has narrow steps (although a reasonable bus turning circle). Coulsdon Town isn't particularly accessible to lots of coaches. East Grinstead works and has reasonable interchange facilities but the combined journey time is longer than it is via Redhill.

I think Redhill will still be overloaded and unable to cope with the number of buses needed. The route from East Croydon isn't bad, within 1/2 mile join A232 Primary route, within 2 miles join A23 which becomes M23 straight to Gatwick. From Redhill the A23 is an urban road with many lights and congestion spots, anything's better than what happened last time.

 

[Robsignals]

The Sutton route was scheduled to be closed due to the resignalling project, but this has been postponed, so trains running hourly vic-Horsham-Gatwick in addition to the Redhill + buses option on Sunday

Hourly is poor and likely to be rammed. Suppose an unsuspecting passenger arrives at Victoria and waits, say, 50 minutes for the through train arriving at Gatwick some 2 1/2 hours later than they expected missing their flight will GTR refund extra costs?

 

[tsr]

I think Redhill will be overloaded and unable to cope with the number of buses needed. The route from East Croydon isn't bad, within 1/2 mile join A232 Primary route, within 2 miles join A23 which becomes M23 straight to Gatwick. From Redhill the A23 is an urban road with many lights and congestion spots, anything's better than what happened last time.

Do you know the area? These roads are not normally an option from East Croydon to Purley; they have a habit of being unpredictable and can end up rammed solid from about 0600 to 2300, 7 days a week. It does depend on any events in the area, for example - but broadly speaking it is not a reliable way to run a service. Last time I had the pleasure of a replacement bus from East Croydon to Redhill on a Sunday, it took the best part of an hour and a quarter, and the quick bit was the A23 south of Hooley, where the M23 diverges. In fact, except in very poor weather or major roadworks (or the school run in Merstham, but not relevant on Sundays), the A23 heading south from Hooley to Redhill tends to be a brisk and uncomplicated run.

Going to Purley cuts off a chunk of that, which would be ideal, but seeing as the route is open to Redhill, running from there will barely be any worse, despite the road layout. The A23 through Redhill might have a chaotic layout, but it's usually quiet enough on a Sunday to accommodate some replacement buses. The town is most definitely not (yet) a leisure destination in the same way that you might consider anywhere in London to be - and the destination bits are usually the gastropubs and restaurants on the rural outskirts.

 

[LA50041]

Hourly is poor and likely to be rammed. Suppose an unsuspecting passenger arrives at Victoria and waits, say, 50 minutes for the through train arriving at Gatwick some 2 1/2 hours later than they expected missing their flight will GTR refund extra costs?

There is still the option of Redhill & bus every 15 minutes.

Anyone that shows up at Victoria to catch a flight especially on a Sunday when there are almost always engineering works, should have checked the service in advance and would therefore have only seen the bus option.

Hourly might not be ideal, but it's much better than nothing at all.

 

[JonathanH]

Has this work been cancelled today? There doesn't appear to be a possession in place on the lines south of Redhill (as would be marked by T3 markers on the live map feeds).

Obviously the amended train service (no trains Redhill to Gatwick) is running as that is what has been set up and rosters / stock plans are in place.

 

[LA50041]

Has this work been cancelled today? There doesn't appear to be a possession in place on the lines south of Redhill (as would be marked by T3 markers on the live map feeds).

Obviously the amended train service (no trains Redhill to Gatwick) is running as that is what has been set up and rosters / stock plans are in place.

From looking on RTT nothing ran out of Hoo Junction last night/this morning, so I wonder if the engineering trains couldnt get out due to the weather

 

[Robsignals]

Has this work been cancelled today? There doesn't appear to be a possession in place on the lines south of Redhill (as would be marked by T3 markers on the live map feeds).

Obviously the amended train service (no trains Redhill to Gatwick) is running as that is what has been set up and rosters / stock plans are in place.

Full closure is Sundays only. Is it possible they got on so well last week that they don't need to do anything today and can't do anything until the full possession tomorrow?