Redhill today (25/2/18) - What a shambles

[samogers]

Brighton Mainline closed today between Redhill and Gatwick
Southern decide to route all passengers through Redhill, an overcrowded station unfit for such crowds and onto buses.
No organisation from Southern:

• Nowhere near enough buses sourced
• Insufficient trains from Redhill to London (3x12 car per hour and the fact that they believe the 4 car Tonbridge service can cope with the crowds
• Apparently BTP and other police forces had to be called in for crowd control as the frontline staff who were working extremely hard were outnumbered and unsure of what to do.
• Buses were reversing into crowds of people and platforms were dangerously overcrowded.

Why not more frequent trains from Redhill ALL 12 cars? Why not utilise the East Grinstead line and Coulsdon Town station to ease pressure on Redhill? Why were more buses not sourced for a contingency? And why did it take so long for action to be taken when it became clear it wasn't working.

The frontline staff were trying their hardest, but I hope that the management team at Southern face consequences for their sheer incompetence this afternoon, especially as their are two more weekends planned of it.

Just one glance at Twitter and #Redhill shows you everything you need to know

 

[deltic]

Given the problems over Christmas surprised more wasn’t done to prevent this - People are saying they will avoid Gatwick in future - certainly proved the point that a second runway there is a non starter without better rail access

 

[AlanFry1]

Just seen this. Looks like a standard morning at White Hart Lane after LO cancel a train to make up for time for being 2 minutes late. Shoddy.

 

[tsr]

The public backlash to this is quite something. It’s grabbed the attention of local politicians, user groups etc. in a manner similar to the Finsbury Park disaster, just fortunately not at the same emotive time of year that said fateful Christmas was!

Having personally organised the reaction to incidents such as this (a few years ago now, but not that many), I can vouch for the fact that the quirks of public transport provision in this area can lead to long and undesirable queues in exceptional circumstances. You can end up with a big incident which highlights a number of local problems - lack of M23 access in the Redhill area; bus garages and holding points hidden in technically vulnerable places; poor road layouts; and more.

But, to reply to the above posts, there is no real reason why you couldn’t consider using other branches for a bus service, or use Purley etc. There is also no reason why you can't ask for more buses - they definitely, absolutely exist, as a few weekends back, there was quite literally the whole of Three Bridges station car park occupied with them during a similar event.

Customer info can be set up to divert people away. People were being asked to use Southeastern and SWR from the middle of the day today, which was ticket acceptance and a diversionary toolkit which could have been broadcast a week ago.

Frontline staff, and those in charge of sending information to them, also do not get all the specifics of certain important pinch-point blockades highlighted to them in amongst the usual reams of emails and paperwork. Word of mouth is all very well, and works well for the railway rumour mill, but not for top-notch internal information broadcasting.

I know very well that GTR will actually learn from this, because the way this could have been avoided is very clear. How immediate this is could be interesting. But what this does not do is help the impact today on the regional economy, the picture of the Redhill locality (which is struggling through regeneration efforts), and the confidence of passengers that the railway cares about leisure and shiftworker travel, when they will soon need to prove that a new permanent timetable is planned and ready to help all customers 24/7.

It’s a sad situation and I desperately hope that the enormous local pressure will get those lessons learnt sooner rather than later.

(PS. On a technical note, no, you can’t necessarily have 12 coach trains routinely to Tonbridge, due to power supply issues. 8 or perhaps 10 coach formations could, however, have worked.)

 

[AlanFry1]

The public backlash to this is quite something. It’s grabbed the attention of local politicians, user groups etc. in a manner similar to the Finsbury Park disaster, just fortunately not at the same emotive time of year that said fateful Christmas was!

This looks worse than the Finsbury Park Overcrowding

 

[IrishDave]

Customer info can be set up to divert people away. People were being asked to use Southeastern and SWR from the middle of the day today, which was ticket acceptance and a diversionary toolkit which could have been broadcast a week ago.

Unfortunately that wouldn't have helped today. There were four separate engineering blocks at (roughly) Eastbourne, Earlswood, Havant and Sutton that meant it was literally impossible to get from Brighton to London without using a rail-replacement bus.

During the Stoats Nest and Purley blocks over two different Christmases recently, they ran Victoria-Sutton-Epsom-Dorking-Horsham-Three Bridges as a diversion. With Sutton being blocked today, that was impossible. The Eastbourne and Havant blocks meant using SWT or Southeastern also required a rail-replacement bus.

There are similar blocks at Earlswood on Sundays 4th and 11th March: fortunately on the 4th Charing Cross-Ashford-Brighton is possible by rail, and on the 11th Waterloo-Southampton-Brighton is possible by rail, but neither will be a pleasant or short diversion.

I think Network Rail deserve some serious pressure for having such a disruptive set of simultaneous engineering works.

 

[30907]

Historically, a service would have operated Victoria-Dorking-Littlehampton-Brighton, which would have reduced the requirement for RRBs. I am puzzled as to why this hasnt been done today - have I missed a block through Sutton? To which the answer is yes, sorry!

Three Bridges-East Grinstead was used when the Stoats Nest block happened a few Christmases back - I don't know how well that worked?

 

[tsr]

Unfortunately that wouldn't have helped today. There were four separate engineering blocks at (roughly) Eastbourne, Earlswood, Havant and Sutton that meant it was literally impossible to get from Brighton to London without using a rail-replacement bus.

During the Stoats Nest and Purley blocks over two different Christmases recently, they ran Victoria-Sutton-Epsom-Dorking-Horsham-Three Bridges as a diversion. With Sutton being blocked today, that was impossible. The Eastbourne and Havant blocks meant using SWT or Southeastern also required a rail-replacement bus.

There are similar blocks at Earlswood on Sundays 4th and 11th March: fortunately on the 4th Charing Cross-Ashford-Brighton is possible by rail, and on the 11th Waterloo-Southampton-Brighton is possible by rail, but neither will be a pleasant or short diversion.

I think Network Rail deserve some serious pressure for having such a disruptive set of simultaneous engineering works.

GTR considered the impact of the works on the SE & SWR routes before arranging ticket acceptance.

They were still deemed potentially quicker and less disruptive than sending more people via Redhill - chiefly deemed best for those aiming for the South Coast, where one bus or another would have been needed to access another train service.

Queue times at Redhill were about 2 hours at one point - it wouldn’t take much longer to walk to Gatwick...

 

[tsr]

Three Bridges-East Grinstead was used when the Stoats Nest block happened a few Christmases back - I don't know how well that worked?

Quite well, when there were sufficient buses to run it. More’s the pity that said route was closed to trains a while ago.

The East Grinstead line can tolerate 4 12-coach trains per hour, in whatever stopping configuration, which is usually an adequate supplement to capacity.

 

[London Trains]

Historically, a service would have operated Victoria-Dorking-Littlehampton-Brighton, which would have reduced the requirement for RRBs. I am puzzled as to why this hasnt been done today - have I missed a block through Sutton? To which the answer is yes, sorry!

Three Bridges-East Grinstead was used when the Stoats Nest block happened a few Christmases back - I don't know how well that worked?

Yes, the whole line from Balham/Norwood Jct to Epsom was shut.
Edit: Just noticed you answered you own question, sorry!

 

[London Trains]

Unfortunately that wouldn't have helped today. There were four separate engineering blocks at (roughly) Eastbourne, Earlswood, Havant and Sutton that meant it was literally impossible to get from Brighton to London without using a rail-replacement bus.

During the Stoats Nest and Purley blocks over two different Christmases recently, they ran Victoria-Sutton-Epsom-Dorking-Horsham-Three Bridges as a diversion. With Sutton being blocked today, that was impossible. The Eastbourne and Havant blocks meant using SWT or Southeastern also required a rail-replacement bus.

There are similar blocks at Earlswood on Sundays 4th and 11th March: fortunately on the 4th Charing Cross-Ashford-Brighton is possible by rail, and on the 11th Waterloo-Southampton-Brighton is possible by rail, but neither will be a pleasant or short diversion.

I think Network Rail deserve some serious pressure for having such a disruptive set of simultaneous engineering works.

Southern could run Victoria-Sutton-Epsom-Dorking-Horsham-Three Bridges and Victoria-Sutton-Dorking-Horsham-Littlehampton-Worthing-Brighton on the 11th, but otherwise it is very difficult.

 

[Robsignals]

Unfortunately that wouldn't have helped today. There were four separate engineering blocks at (roughly) Eastbourne, Earlswood, Havant and Sutton that meant it was literally impossible to get from Brighton to London without using a rail-replacement bus.

During the Stoats Nest and Purley blocks over two different Christmases recently, they ran Victoria-Sutton-Epsom-Dorking-Horsham-Three Bridges as a diversion. With Sutton being blocked today, that was impossible. The Eastbourne and Havant blocks meant using SWT or Southeastern also required a rail-replacement bus.

There are similar blocks at Earlswood on Sundays 4th and 11th March: fortunately on the 4th Charing Cross-Ashford-Brighton is possible by rail, and on the 11th Waterloo-Southampton-Brighton is possible by rail, but neither will be a pleasant or short diversion.

I think Network Rail deserve some serious pressure for having such a disruptive set of simultaneous engineering works.

The Brighton half marathon and uninterrupted sun probably generated extra day visitors. Yes it's Network Rail that must take the blame, I find it incredible that a four track mainline would be closed at any time other than Christmas/New Year - BR would never have dreamt of doing this and NR need to be reminded their ultimate function is to run trains. The limited service between Redhill and Victoria (no Thameslink trains between St Pancras and Gatwick) could be due to other works and NR might say they were being generous allowing any trains into Redhill from the north.

Diversions by roundabout routes are now difficult due to loss of route knowledge requiring conductor drivers and possibly rolling stock isn't cleared for going off normal routes. Although Dorking - Horsham is operated by Southern I don't think coastal depots sign it anymore and possibly only Horsham does. With so few drivers they need to be carefully rostered for planned diversions while emergency diversions aren't even attempted.

A foretaste of what to expect in October and next Feb when the line south of Three Bridges is closed for all of each Half-Term week, utter chaos.

 

[Bishopstone]

They should pull the overnight Southern and Gatwick Express services on the Brighton Main Line, so more of this work can be done mid-week.

Oh, hang on....

 

[tsr]

Diversions by roundabout routes are now difficult due to loss of route knowledge requiring conductor drivers and possibly rolling stock isn't cleared for going off normal routes. Although Dorking - Horsham is operated by Southern I don't think coastal depots sign it anymore and possibly only Horsham does. With so few drivers they need to be carefully rostered for planned diversions while emergency diversions aren't even attempted.

Dorking-Horsham is route knowledge held by Epsom and Horsham drivers, and a significant number from Selhurst and Norwood Depots. Not to mention sundry others who’ve kept it up and might want Sunday overtime!

 

[Robsignals]

Given the problems over Christmas surprised more wasn’t done to prevent this - People are saying they will avoid Gatwick in future - certainly proved the point that a second runway there is a non starter without better rail access

Also visitors to Brighton especially for todays half marathon which made life impassable for bus users, as these major events happen so often I'm sure many bus users keep away from Brighton all weekends and this is going to start happening with rail users.

 

[Robsignals]

Dorking-Horsham is route knowledge held by Epsom and Horsham drivers, and a significant number from Selhurst and Norwood Depots. Not to mention sundry others who’ve kept it up and might want Sunday overtime!

Yes but drivers to/from the coast can't simply divert, it has to be planned well in advance.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Unfortunately that wouldn't have helped today. There were four separate engineering blocks at (roughly) Eastbourne, Earlswood, Havant and Sutton that meant it was literally impossible to get from Brighton to London without using a rail-replacement bus.

I have to ask... who signed that off, especially on a day with a major event going on in Brighton?

 

[IanXC]

This has generated plenty of media coverage:

Southern Rail users say they have missed flights as an overcrowded rail replacement service caused crowds to bottleneck at Redhill station.

Police were on the scene as frustrated crowds, unable to use the Gatwick Express service to the airport, continued to swell into Sunday evening as they waited for buses.

Southern Rail had advised during the week that it would be operating a bus replacement service for the Gatwick Express between Redhill and Gatwick Airport while “essential maintenance work” was carried out.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...sers-miss-flights-after-bottleneck-at-station

 

[Robsignals]

They should pull the overnight Southern and Gatwick Express services on the Brighton Main Line, so more of this work can be done mid-week.

Oh, hang on....

Overnight Gatwick Express trains were ended some years ago, only the hourly Southern Victoria - Three Bridges trains a couple of which continue non-stop to Brighton on very extended timings which allow for diversion via Littlehampton.

 

[tsr]

Yes but drivers to/from the coast can't simply divert, it has to be planned well in advance.

You may need to change crew en-route. Happens loads at Horsham and elsewhere, especially if route competency is affected.

It was a big ask during recent blockades around the Purley area (etc.) but train planning and rostering pulled it off. In many ways, diverted trains tend to be much more successful than buses.

 

[tsr]

Overnight Gatwick Express trains were ended some years ago, only the hourly Southern Victoria - Three Bridges trains a couple of which continue non-stop to Brighton on very extended timings which allow for diversion via Littlehampton.

There was previously a much more extensive red-eye / early morning GX service, only cut in the last year or so. I sometimes used to be the person who arranged special stops on it, on the odd occasion when a Southern or TL overnight circuit fell apart. Jolly handy it was, too.

Southern pulled their overnight trains on Sunday-Thursday nights last year (leaving only Friday / Saturday nights) due to allegations that track access was needed for engineering blocks / possessions. In truth, the only bit of route able to see more flexibility was Selhurst - Victoria, as the TL brand still provides a service from Three Bridges to Bedford most nights, for which a two-track railway is generally used, and which overlaps with most of the Southern overnight route anyway.

Even then, due to complex ECS movements and the odd freight path, there are only about 3 and a half extra hours each night of track access in the inner South London area. Consequently, Southern have saved a bit on their trains and crews, and the lines have only seen modest extra works.

The trains to Brighton have most certainly not run non-stop from Three Bridges in recent memory. They do tend to run fast from Haywards Heath, which is in fact to allow a (rather shorter) diversion via Hove or Lewes.

 

[theageofthetra]

GTR considered the impact of the works on the SE & SWR routes before arranging ticket acceptance.

They were still deemed potentially quicker and less disruptive than sending more people via Redhill - chiefly deemed best for those aiming for the South Coast, where one bus or another would have been needed to access another train service.

Queue times at Redhill were about 2 hours at one point - it wouldn’t take much longer to walk to Gatwick...

Any evidence of local cab firms/Uber taking liberties during the disruption?

 

[Robsignals]

There was previously a much more extensive red-eye / early morning GX service, only cut in the last year or so. I sometimes used to be the person who arranged special stops on it, on the odd occasion when a Southern or TL overnight circuit fell apart. Jolly handy it was, too.

Southern pulled their overnight trains on Sunday-Thursday nights last year (leaving only Friday / Saturday nights) due to allegations that track access was needed for engineering blocks / possessions. In truth, the only bit of route able to see more flexibility was Selhurst - Victoria, as the TL brand still provides a service from Three Bridges to Bedford most nights, for which a two-track railway is generally used, and which overlaps with most of the Southern overnight route anyway.

Even then, due to complex ECS movements and the odd freight path, there are only about 3 and a half extra hours each night of track access in the inner South London area. Consequently, Southern have saved a bit on their trains and crews, and the lines have only seen modest extra works.

The trains to Brighton have most certainly not run non-stop from Three Bridges in recent memory. They do tend to run fast from Haywards Heath, which is in fact to allow a (rather shorter) diversion via Hove or Lewes.

I hadn't noticed that Haywards Heath has been reinstated, I remember it was withdrawn to save running buses when diverted as very few passengers travelled. In fact timings aren't extended even for a Lewes divert.

 

[robbeech]

Any evidence of local cab firms/Uber taking liberties during the disruption?

Is that also known as ‘providing their services’?

 

[87015]

I have to ask... who signed that off, especially on a day with a major event going on in Brighton?

GTR...

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds like a proper Horlicks, which has made the Today programme news on Radio 4.

 

[Robsignals]

GTR...

Do TOCs have a veto on NR engineering plans or do NR simply announce what's closing and when so deal with it.

A better plan for the buses would be to run many Redhill - Three Bridges non stop plus Redhill - Gatwick only with either some continuing to 3B or separate Gatwick - 3B shuttle. There are significant numbers travelling south but overall capacity would be maximised by separating the flows.

 

[Barn]

Do TOCs have a veto on NR engineering plans or do NR simply announce what's closing and when so deal with it.

A better plan for the buses would be to run many Redhill - Three Bridges non stop plus Redhill - Gatwick only with either some continuing to 3B or separate Gatwick - 3B shuttle. There are significant numbers travelling south but overall capacity would be maximised by separating the flows.

Hard to separate flows when the whole station and car park is just a huge throng of people. Need much better crowd control (and possibly a different location) to do that properly.

 

[RichJF]

Do TOCs have a veto on NR engineering plans or do NR simply announce what's closing and when so deal with it.

A better plan for the buses would be to run many Redhill - Three Bridges non stop plus Redhill - Gatwick only with either some continuing to 3B or separate Gatwick - 3B shuttle. There are significant numbers travelling south but overall capacity would be maximised by separating the flows.

Run Redhill - Three Bridges non stop bus + a Redhill = Gatwick bus.
Make all East Grinstead services 12 car & run a regular bus shuttle between East Grinstead & Gatwick/Three Bridges.
Also lay on an East Croydon - Gatwick bus replacement.

Course if we still had East Grinstead-Haywards Heath or Three Bridges-East Grinstead it would be another kettle of fish...don't want to open up that can of worms!

 

[Barn]

I see GWR switched their Gatwick passengers onto buses at Reigate, rather than Redhill. Seems to have been a very wise decision!