Refund Application for my National Rail annual season ticket rejected!! please help

[plasmaxx]

I have an annual rail season ticket with Sutheastern Railway.It is a Zones 3-6 to Sevenoaks purchased in February this year for £2060.

I had lost this ticket a few months ago and applied for a duplicate ticket which I recieved, however I was fined £500 as the my ticket was not zonal (missed out 1 zone) and I promptly paid this fine.

I have been working for my company for the past year however because of the amount of stress I have recieved from work I have decided to resign from work and my last day fo work is in a few days. I resigned because of medical problems (depression, stress and anxiety) and I recieved a 3 weeks statutory pay medical note from my GP explaining this problem aswell as being prescibed anti-depressants and reffered to the hospital as I have self harmed in the past.

Refunds on duplicate tickets are tricky but this is their policy:

"Refunds are not usually made on a duplicate ticket that has been issued to replace a lost or stolen Season Ticket. However, applications for such refunds will be considered:

in circumstances such as the redundancy, pregnancy or prolonged illness of the holder, provided supporting evidence is supplied which is satisfactory to the Train Company asked to make the refund. "

I wrote to the Overground Customer Services department stating that I require a refund for my season ticket and I also attached a copy of my doctors note as well as a copy of my resignation letter.

My case was bought forward to the "Prosecutions and Investigation" department and the guy on the phone told me has rejected my application. He seemed to be makng numerous excuses that didnt make sense and to me it was clear he just did not want to refund me. He said things such as because I had a previous fine it does not help etc but I fail to see the connection as I paid the fine on time. He also said that I cannot appeal and the decision is final.

I am strongly considering taking this matter to court. I have also seen my GP and my GP said he can provide me with a medical note stating my depression is a long term illness as I have seen him numerous times in the past year with this problem.

I am under heavy financial stress and this rejection of refund is adding to it and it is affecting my health.

Any advice please?

 

[sonic2009]

The £500 fine when and what was this for?

 

[plasmaxx]

The £500 fine when and what was this for?

The £500 was back in May. It was because I missed out a London Zone in my annual season ticket. However this was resolved as I immediately paid the fine I dont think it should have anything to do with my refund for my duplicate ticket.

 

[Squaddie]

The £500 was back in May. It was because I missed out a London Zone in my annual season ticket. However this was resolved as I immediately paid the fine I dont think it should have anything to do with my refund for my duplicate ticket.

Can you clarify this further?

What exactly do you mean when you say you "missed out" a zone? What journey were you making every day with your Z3-Sevenoaks season ticket?

 

[plasmaxx]

Can you clarify this further?

What exactly do you mean when you say you "missed out" a zone? What journey were you making every day with your Z3-Sevenoaks season ticket?

Okay so basically I required Zones 1-6 to Sevenoaks. On my original annual season ticket I had Zones 4-6 to Sevenoaks and I also had an Oyster card with an annual Zones 1-2. Therefore zone 3 was missing and they figured this out when I lost my orginal rail season ticket and applied for a duplicate.

 

[Greenback]

Presumably the £500 fine was issued by a court?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Sorry to be so negative, but it is their perogative to decide whether or not to issue you a refund on a duplicate season, due to the obviously large potential for fraud (i.e. that the original "lost" season ticket is still in use). If they think there's a minimal chance of fraud and you have a legitimate reason for getting a refund then they might consider it, but it sounds like you have unfortunately already illustrated to them a propensity for fraud (unless the "missing zone" was an honest mistake?), so they are having none of it. Not what you wanted to hear I'm sure.

 

[plasmaxx]

Sorry to be so negative, but it is their perogative to decide whether or not to issue you a refund on a duplicate season, due to the obviously large potential for fraud (i.e. that the original "lost" season ticket is still in use). If they think there's a minimal chance of fraud and you have a legitimate reason for getting a refund then they might consider it, but it sounds like you have unfortunately already illustrated to them a propensity for fraud (unless the "missing zone" was an honest mistake?), so they are having none of it. Not what you wanted to hear I'm sure.

I understand but as soon as I lost my original ticket I reported it to the police and I sent the Prosecutions Team a copy of the police report.

According to their policy of refunding a duplicate ticket I believe I am eligible as I have resigned from my job on the grounds of prolonged illness.

 

[bb21]

According to their policy of refunding a duplicate ticket I believe I am eligible as I have resigned from my job on the grounds of prolonged illness.

While you are eligible, they are only obliged to consider your application, not to offer a monetary refund.

What I am also unsure is why you sought a refund from London Overground when according to you the season was bought with Southeastern(?).

Presumably the £500 fine was issued by a court?

If you could give an answer to this question then it helps us understand more why they are refusing to offer a refund on your ticket, and assess whether you can realistically hope to get your refund request granted.

Was it an out-of-court settlement or was it a fine imposed by a court?

 

[MikeWh]

I understand but as soon as I lost my original ticket I reported it to the police and I sent the Prosecutions Team a copy of the police report.

According to their policy of refunding a duplicate ticket I believe I am eligible as I have resigned from my job on the grounds of prolonged illness.

Not being funny, but just because you reported the loss to the police does not mean that the ticket isn't being used. I do wonder whether your mention of resignation has confused the issue. All you should need is a doctors letter stating that he has advised you to quit your job. The fact that you've resigned is implicit in you asking for a refund. Resignation on it's own is not grounds to refund a duplicate ticket.

I am not a lawyer so I don't know what footing you would be on if you took them to court. I'm not persuaded that they have necessarily done anything wrong.

If they won't change their mind there are still some avenues to explore. Have you got another job, perhaps locally? Do you still require the train for a short journey? If yes then you can apply for an exchange ticket. Because the old one is a duplicate they won't refund the difference, but they can add extra days onto the end of your exchange instead.

Another thing you could try, though I don't know whether it would work, is booking a leisure trip and asking whether they could issue it in lieu of the refund. Perhaps a holiday would do you good. I do appreciate that this may not be reasonable advice, but I'm trying to explore possibilities. The bottom line is that as long as the railway are keeping the money they are more likely to credit the old season ticket.

At least you shouldn't have any trouble getting a refund on the zone 1-2 ticket as that is completely cancellable being stored electronically on Oyster.

 

[soil]

I would try to get the ticket switched over to a cheaper one. A refund should be due in this case.

I feel you are wasting your time trying for a full refund, and in the case of a switchover to a cheaper ticket the amounts are likely to be similar anyway.

 

[Squaddie]

According to their policy of refunding a duplicate ticket I believe I am eligible as I have resigned from my job on the grounds of prolonged illness.

If you read the conditions you will see that the train company will consider applications for refunds in the case of illness. Presumably, they have considered your application and have decided not to permit a refund. I don't think taking the matter to court will change anything.

Your best bet, as soil says, is to exchange the ticket for a cheaper season ticket, in which case a refund of the difference will be due.

 

[bb21]

I would try to get the ticket switched over to a cheaper one. A refund should be due in this case.

Your best bet, as soil says, is to exchange the ticket for a cheaper season ticket, in which case a refund of the difference will be due.

That won't work. I quote from The Manual:

"Duplicate" Season Ticket or Travelcard Change-over

Where a "Duplicate" Season Ticket or Travelcard (including Annual Gold Card) has been issued to replace a lost or mislaid ticket, the following rules apply:

• A Change-over ticket may be issued for either a change of journey, route or class of travel;
• Where the ticket being exchanged is for a continuous renewal and has the same (or later) expiry date than the original ticket;
• Any "Duplicate" ticket which has already been issued in exchange for another may be accepted for one further exchange only;
• The Change-over Season Ticket is issued on appropriate "Duplicate" ticket stock;
• The calculation for the amount to pay or refund is as in clause 4.1;
• If the customer has to pay an extra amount, follow the procedure in clause 4.1.7.1;
• If there is a refund due to the customer, follow the procedure in 4.1.7.2. The refund will normally be given as an extension to the validity of the replacement ticket, rather than as a monetary payment. Consideration would be given to monetary refund at the discretion of the Train Company’s Customer Services Manager.

 

[plasmaxx]

While you are eligible, they are only obliged to consider your application, not to offer a monetary refund.

What I am also unsure is why you sought a refund from London Overground when according to you the season was bought with Southeastern(?).



If you could give an answer to this question then it helps us understand more why they are refusing to offer a refund on your ticket, and assess whether you can realistically hope to get your refund request granted.

Was it an out-of-court settlement or was it a fine imposed by a court?

I purchased the season ticket from an Overground station ticket office and not through Southeastern railway directly. I was told to write to contcat London Overground, so I think TFL overground deals with the refund?

No, the fine was not settled through court. It was an out-of-court settlement whereby I simply gave my credit card details to the manager of the Prosecutions Team because I needed a duplicate ticket
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not being funny, but just because you reported the loss to the police does not mean that the ticket isn't being used. I do wonder whether your mention of resignation has confused the issue. All you should need is a doctors letter stating that he has advised you to quit your job. The fact that you've resigned is implicit in you asking for a refund. Resignation on it's own is not grounds to refund a duplicate ticket.

I am not a lawyer so I don't know what footing you would be on if you took them to court. I'm not persuaded that they have necessarily done anything wrong.

If they won't change their mind there are still some avenues to explore. Have you got another job, perhaps locally? Do you still require the train for a short journey? If yes then you can apply for an exchange ticket. Because the old one is a duplicate they won't refund the difference, but they can add extra days onto the end of your exchange instead.

Another thing you could try, though I don't know whether it would work, is booking a leisure trip and asking whether they could issue it in lieu of the refund. Perhaps a holiday would do you good. I do appreciate that this may not be reasonable advice, but I'm trying to explore possibilities. The bottom line is that as long as the railway are keeping the money they are more likely to credit the old season ticket.

At least you shouldn't have any trouble getting a refund on the zone 1-2 ticket as that is completely cancellable being stored electronically on Oyster.

Thanks for the reply. I understand my resignation itself is not enough for a refund, however I resigned due to medical issues and I sent them a doctors note with 3 weeks statutory pay. I believe my doctor should provide me with another medical note stating that I resigned from work due to my health probems. I did however say this to my manager of the prosecutions team (that I will provide further evidence through my GP) but he still said that is not enough?!

No I do not have another job and therefore my ticket will be useless for me. Yes you are right, I successfully recieved a refund of my Oyster Zones 1-2 card. I also asked the prosecutions team manager if I can have the ticket exchanged for Zone1-6 and he said that I have to pay the difference so basically no I dont really get an exchange. He seems completely useless

 

[bb21]

I purchased the season ticket from an Overground station ticket office and not through Southeastern railway directly. I was told to write to contcat London Overground, so I think TFL overground deals with the refund?

That's fine. I got confused by your mention of Southeastern in your first post.

No, the fine was not settled through court. It was an out-of-court settlement whereby I simply gave my credit card details to the manager of the Prosecutions Team because I needed a duplicate ticket

If it was imposed by a court I would have said that you would stand no real chance of getting them to show any discretion.

In this case, while I still don't think it likely that you will get a monetary refund (let's be realistic here, you have a black mark against your name on their record), it might be worth trying out some of the other things suggested by MikeWh, if they are any use to you.

I can't really think of any other options, sorry.
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No I do not have another job and therefore my ticket will be useless for me. Yes you are right, I successfully recieved a refund of my Oyster Zones 1-2 card. I also asked the prosecutions team manager if I can have the ticket exchanged for Zone1-6 and he said that I have to pay the difference so basically no I dont really get an exchange. He seems completely useless

If you do a changeover on your current Travelcard season to make it a Travelcard season from Sevenoaks to London Zones 1-6, then you will have to pay the difference as the changeover season ticket must expire on the same day as your current Travelcard season and it is a more expensive ticket than your current one.

If you do a changeover into an inboundary Zones 1-6 Travelcard season (not valid at Sevenoaks), then you would be due a small refund, which will be added to the end of the current season ticket's expiry date.

 

[plasmaxx]

That's fine. I got confused by your mention of Southeastern in your first post.



If it was imposed by a court I would have said that you would stand no real chance of getting them to show any discretion.

In this case, while I still don't think it likely that you will get a monetary refund (let's be realistic here, you have a black mark against your name on their record), it might be worth trying out some of the other things suggested by MikeWh, if they are any use to you.

I can't really think of any other options, sorry.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If you do a changeover on your current Travelcard season to make it a Travelcard season from Sevenoaks to London Zones 1-6, then you will have to pay the difference as the changeover season ticket must expire on the same day as your current Travelcard season and it is a more expensive ticket than your current one.

If you do a changeover into an inboundary Zones 1-6 Travelcard season (not valid at Sevenoaks), then you would be due a small refund, which will be added to the end of the current season ticket's expiry date.

I am definately interested in changing it over to a Zones 1-6 travel card (not to Sevenoaks). Can they do this and also give me the remaining refund due?

 

[maniacmartin]

I am definately interested in changing it over to a Zones 1-6 travel card (not to Sevenoaks). Can they do this and also give me the remaining refund due?

As bb21 said above, you can't get any refund on a duplicate when doing a changeover. The refund amount will be used to add extra days to the season ticket's validity. I'm sure you can understand why this policy is in place.

If you wanted more flexibility, then you shouldn't have been commuting through Zone 3 without paying for it.

 

[plasmaxx]

As bb21 said above, you can't get any refund on a duplicate when doing a changeover. The refund amount will be used to add extra days to the season ticket's validity. I'm sure you can understand why this policy is in place.

If you wanted more flexibility, then you shouldn't have been commuting through Zone 3 without paying for it.

Okay I understand. Worse comes to worse and they do not give me a refund, then would I be right in saying I can refund the ticket to Zones 1-6 travelcard only and the refund remaining will be added as extra days when the ticket expires?

 

[maniacmartin]

Yes, that is correct. It's called a changeover, not a refund.

 

[bb21]

Okay I understand. Worse comes to worse and they do not give me a refund, then would I be right in saying I can refund the ticket to Zones 1-6 travelcard only and the refund remaining will be added as extra days when the ticket expires?

Yes, if you indeed hold a Sevenoaks to London Zones 3-6 Travelcard season then you should get a few days' additional validity if you changeover to an inboundary Zones 1-6 Travelcard season.

I say "if you indeed hold" because I am slightly confused by the price you have quoted in the first post having looked at the fares database, as a Sevenoaks - London Zones 3-6 annual season starting in February this year should have cost £2428. On the other hand, a Sevenoaks - London Zones 4-6 annual season would have cost £2060.

So can you doublecheck that the ticket you hold is indeed to London Zones 3-6 and not Zones 4-6? (This is important as it changes the situation if your current ticket does not include Zone 3.)

The inboundary Zones 1-6 Travelcard season is more expensive than the Sevenoaks - London Zones 4-6 Travelcard season, so if you changeover from a Sevenoaks - London Zones 4-6 ticket, you will have to pay the difference, which is roughly £4.10 pro rata (the exact figure will vary a little) for the remainder of the validity period.

 

[plasmaxx]

Yes, if you indeed hold a Sevenoaks to London Zones 3-6 Travelcard season then you should get a few days' additional validity if you changeover to an inboundary Zones 1-6 Travelcard season.

I say "if you indeed hold" because I am slightly confused by the price you have quoted in the first post having looked at the fares database, as a Sevenoaks - London Zones 3-6 annual season starting in February this year should have cost £2428. On the other hand, a Sevenoaks - London Zones 4-6 annual season would have cost £2060.

So can you doublecheck that the ticket you hold is indeed to London Zones 3-6 and not Zones 4-6? (This is important as it changes the situation if your current ticket does not include Zone 3.)

The inboundary Zones 1-6 Travelcard season is more expensive than the Sevenoaks - London Zones 4-6 Travelcard season, so if you changeover from a Sevenoaks - London Zones 4-6 ticket, you will have to pay the difference, which is roughly £4.10 pro rata (the exact figure will vary a little) for the remainder of the validity period.

My original ticket that I lost was a Zones 4-6 to Sevenoaks that was £2060, however my present duplicate ticket is a Zones 1-3 to Sevenoaks ticket.

So I definatelyactually do 'change over' for a travel card zones 1-5 and add the extra days on when it expires as a form of refund instead of zones 1-6?

 

[maniacmartin]

There is no Zones 1-3 to Sevenoaks ticket.
Do you mean Sevenoaks to Zones 1-6?

 

[rdwarr]

There is no Zones 1-3 to Sevenoaks ticket.
Do you mean Sevenoaks to Zones 1-6?

No, Sevenoaks to zones 3-6. If you read the whole thread you'll see why that's the one needed.

 

[bb21]

My original ticket that I lost was a Zones 4-6 to Sevenoaks that was £2060, however my present duplicate ticket is a Zones 1-3 to Sevenoaks ticket.

That's fair enough. Did you have a changeover previously from Zones 4-6 to Zones 3-6? Did you pay an additional amount for it? What is the price printed on your duplicate?

Sorry about all the questions. I am just trying to ascertain your exact situation.

So I definatelyactually do 'change over' for a travel card zones 1-5 and add the extra days on when it expires as a form of refund instead of zones 1-6?

Sevenoaks to London Zones 3-6 is £60.70 per week.
Sevenoaks to London Zones 4-6 is £52.50 per week.
Sevenoaks to London Zones 5-6 is £46.40 per week.
Inboundary Zones 1-4 is £43.60 per week.
Inboundary Zones 1-5 is £51.80 per week.
Inboundary Zones 1-6 is £55.60 per week.

Basically if you do a changeover to a more expensive ticket you will need to pay extra. If it is the other way round then normally you are due a refund, but in your circumstance you will probably have the refund added as additional days of validity.

 

[plasmaxx]

That's fair enough. Did you have a changeover previously from Zones 4-6 to Zones 3-6? Did you pay an additional amount for it? What is the price printed on your duplicate?

Sorry about all the questions. I am just trying to ascertain your exact situation.



Sevenoaks to London Zones 3-6 is £60.70 per week.
Sevenoaks to London Zones 4-6 is £52.50 per week.
Sevenoaks to London Zones 5-6 is £46.40 per week.
Inboundary Zones 1-4 is £43.60 per week.
Inboundary Zones 1-5 is £51.80 per week.
Inboundary Zones 1-6 is £55.60 per week.


Basically if you do a changeover to a more expensive ticket you will need to pay extra. If it is the other way round then normally you are due a refund, but in your circumstance you will probably have the refund added as additional days of validity.

Thanks for the reply and help.

I currently hold a Sevenoaks to Zones 3-6 rail gold card annual ticket. Originally I had a Sevenaoks to Zones 4-6 ticket that cost me £2060. Since I lost this ticket back in May this year I paid a £504 fine and recieved my suplicated ticket (SEV-ZONES 3-6) and the price it says in this ticket is£1636.41. I did pay an additional amount for that Zone 3 on top of the £504 fine but I cant remember how much exactly it was probably around £150ish.

 

[bb21]

No problem. Yes that all makes sense. In that case I would imagine you would get some value refunded/added to the end whichever inboundary Travelcard you choose.

 

[CyrusWuff]

With an "odd" price like that, it suggests that you were issued a change-over rather than a Duplicate.

A Duplicate is issued with a price of £0.00 and the admin fee is accounted for via a separate "Sundry" transaction.

A change-over, on the other hand, is issued at the calculated charge, with a refund sundry for the credit on the old ticket.

As the OP settled out of Court it's possible the £504 figure represents the change-over amount, but without doing a calculation I can't be 100% sure.

Just read the OP's last post again, and the £504 was on top of the change-over (£224 by my reckoning), so nm.

 

[plasmaxx]

With an "odd" price like that, it suggests that you were issued a change-over rather than a Duplicate.

A Duplicate is issued with a price of £0.00 and the admin fee is accounted for via a separate "Sundry" transaction.

A change-over, on the other hand, is issued at the calculated charge, with a refund sundry for the credit on the old ticket.

As the OP settled out of Court it's possible the £504 figure represents the change-over amount, but without doing a calculation I can't be 100% sure.

Just read the OP's last post again, and the £504 was on top of the change-over (£224 by my reckoning), so nm.

This is interesting. The fact that they processed my ticket as a 'change over' as opposed to a duplicate ticket, would I have a legitimate case and I am fully entitled for my ticket?

 

[bb21]

I thought you lost your original ticket?

If so, you would have had a duplicate and a changeover, not necessarily in that order and possibly processed in one transaction. Once you have been given a duplicate, you lose your automatic right to a monetary refund.

 

[plasmaxx]

I thought you lost your original ticket?

If so, you would have had a duplicate and a changeover, not necessarily in that order and possibly processed in one transaction. Once you have been given a duplicate, you lose your automatic right to a monetary refund.

Yes my originally ticket was lost. My bad, as one of the previous members said duplicate tickets have a value of £0.00.

The last time I spoke to the Prosecutions Team manager of Loral, he simply rejected my refund and I asked if I can exchange my ticket for a Zones 1-5 travel card and he said I would have to pay extra for this which I found absurd.