Regional Eurostar and HS2?

[JoeGJ1984]

If HS2 is built as planned (and this is a big if; I'm not convinced over the domestic benefots to HS2; it seems to just shave a few minutes off the London to Birmingham journey times, so let's not 'muddy the waters' here with this debate), should direct regional Eurostar trains from Birmingham/Manchester/Leeds to Paris/Brussels be re-considered?

I have the idea that Eurostar are not getting the passengernumbers they expected; I think a major factor is that you have to get to London first, but if direct trains from North of London to Paris/Brussels did run, that would increase the numbers greatly. And I think there would be a market for it; I think families for Paris/Disneyland Paris may use the direct North of London trains becuase they know that once they are on the train, they are guaranteed to get to their destination without the stress of missed connections (and no walk along the Euston Road or tube journey in London). Yes, there is the alternative of flying, but that involves faffing about getting to or from the airports and all the airport security, etc. (stressful for families) (and I think trains are generally more comfortable than planes. Other considerations include the fact that a number of people have a fear of flying and the 'green' nature of trains as opposed to planes).

I think that if HS2 were to be built, it seems silly not to link it to HS1 to allows these services while they were at it (and as it uses new stations, add the infrastructure needed for all the security, passport checks, etc).

 

[gordonthemoron]

HS2 is about capacity rather than speed, to relieve WCML, MML & ECML

 

[EM2]

Deleted - skim-read the OP

 

[edwin_m]

The big problem is the insistence on passport control and particularly baggage screening for any train using the Tunnel.

Looking across Europe, the only trains that survive on international traffic alone are those that are between pairs of large capital cities that are a good distance apart for rail (ie within the 3hr high speed journey time where most people use rail rather than air). This is basically Eurostar and Thalys. All the others also cater for domestic journeys within the countries they pass through.

Without this you could imagine an "all stations" service on HS2 that continued onto HS1 to provide links between the Midlands/North and Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford then on to Lille and Paris/Brussels. This wouldn't be competitive with air but adding all its markets together might be viable for with a combination of people making short hops and longer distance travelers who wanted a through journey without the hassle of flying.

However as soon as you add in the 30min check-in and the indignity of baggage screening, the whole idea collapses. Because of the possibility of someone boarding the train on a domestic leg and leaving something on board, even domestic passengers would need to undergo screening and all stations would have to have the necessary facilities.

 

[Hadders]

In theory it's a good idea but in practice it's unlikely to work.

Consider a train running Manchester-Birmingham-London-Ebbsfleet-Lille-Paris.

How much demand is there likely to be if it can only convey international passengers, I suspect not enough to justify it's existence. It therefore becomes a liability in terms of cost, use of paths etc.

If the UK Government relaxed border controls to enable domestic journeys to be made then I suspect that commercially it wold stack up as it would just 'join up' two existing services which happens all over the network. Problem is the UK Government isn't going to relax border controls.

 

[najaB]

How much demand is there likely to be if it can only convey international passengers, I suspect not enough to justify it's existence. It therefore becomes a liability in terms of cost, use of paths etc.

That depends on pricing, timing, etc. What's a good guess at a journey time from Manchester through Disneyland with stops at Birmingham, London and Paris?

 

[NotATrainspott]

For as long as the United Kingdom is not in Schengen any services on HS2 have to be in addition to services from London, even if a through station is provided in London. Since the paths on Phase 1 are in extremely short supply, it means that a service to Paris would likely replace a service from somewhere like Hull or Stoke-on-Trent, and since the number of London-Paris travellers isn't yet enough to run more than 1tph I can't see Brum-Paris, with a longer journey time, being a financial success if it can only carry international passengers.

SNCF now run TGV services from Paris to Barcelona taking over 6 hours but these are like the Highland Chieftan East Coast service, where the bulk of the profits and passengers can still use the service between London and York, Newcastle and Edinburgh so the run up to Inverness is just a nice bonus. If the Chieftan weren't allowed to carry passengers going to York, Newcastle or Edinburgh it simply wouldn't be profitable to run and that's the situation that Regional Eurostar services have to contend with.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Consider a train running Manchester-Birmingham-London-Ebbsfleet-Lille-Paris.

Would the above work with pick-up only at all stations until the Chunnel? (As this lso caters for London to Paris). If, with HS2, the new Manchester/Birmingham stations have all the security infrastructure, this would work. (And you would have separate Manchester-Birmingham stations).

And is the baggage screening really needed? The domestic UK trains manage fine without it; the only extra checks that should be needed are passport checks, and those could be done on the train, making the 'open' service (i.e. able to board and alight anywhere) with the above calling points feasible.

 

[cgcenet]

Thalys can be used for domestic travel in Germany and Belgium. According to the SNCB website, domestic tickets can be used on Thalys or ICE on payment of a supplement. And the B-Europe site quotes an Aachen→Cologne fare on Thalys.
Also IIRC in theory it is possible to travel between Calais and Paris on a Eurostar. Not sure how that works in practice.
It seems to be only on the UK side that domestic travel on international trains (to and from mainland Europe) is completely banned. And for sure, this would likely prevent any kind of cross-Channel train service other than Eurostar's quasi-airline service to and from London.

 

[edwin_m]

And is the baggage screening really needed? The domestic UK trains manage fine without it; the only extra checks that should be needed are passport checks, and those could be done on the train, making the 'open' service (i.e. able to board and alight anywhere) with the above calling points feasible.

There is a strong argument to say the baggage screening isn't necessary on trains. While a plane can be brought down by a relatively small device or taken over with the minimum amount of weaponry, it would be much more difficult to achieve this with a train. Somebody intent on doing so could cause more impact by attacking the security queue than the train itself - as happened a few months back in Russia - or some other softer target.

However, although I'd argue that removing the security checks doesn't increase the total amount of risk to the public, it does increase some specific risks and if one of these events occurs people could point to the removal of security checks as a cause. The airlines and some elements of the "securaucracy" also have a vested interest. For this reason I don't expect anyone to be brave enough to authorise any relaxation any time soon.

 

[RT4038]

the only extra checks that should be needed are passport checks, and those could be done on the train, making the 'open' service (i.e. able to board and alight anywhere) with the above calling points feasible.

There has already been discussion elsewhere on this forum as to why passport checks cannot be done on the train, at least not practicably and economically, whilst the UK is not party to the Schengen agreement. (and it will take a brave political decision to change that any time soon)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.
Also IIRC in theory it is possible to travel between Calais and Paris on a Eurostar. Not sure how that works in practice.
.

It is not possible to travel on a Eurostar train from Calais to Paris, because there are no London-Paris trains that stop at Calais. It is possible to make a 'within Schengen' journey on a London-Brussels train from Lille to Brussels and vice-versa, but westbound passengers have to travel in a separate, guarded, carriage and are not mixed with passengers travelling to the UK.

 

[cgcenet]

It is not possible to travel on a Eurostar train from Calais to Paris, because there are no London-Paris trains that stop at Calais.

Thanks, yes I realised that after checking Eurostar website. I just seem to remember there used to be one or two.

…westbound passengers have to travel in a separate, guarded, carriage and are not mixed with passengers travelling to the UK.

Yes, how ridiculous that is.

 

[RT4038]

Yes, how ridiculous that is.

In the context of where it is used, why is this ridiculous?

 

[edwin_m]

Do Brussels-Lille passengers on Eurostar have to go through baggage screening?

 

[cgcenet]

In the context of where it is used, why is this ridiculous?

It's ridiculous because a train should just pick people up and set them down and it shouldn't matter where they sit or next to whom.On a train from Kings X to Edinburgh, people travelling the length of the train run might be sharing a carriage with people travelling from York to Newcastle. Why should it be any different for a train running from Brussels to London? Yes I know why it is different, but it ought not to be.