Released Capacity In Manchester As A Result Of Tram-Train Introduction

[Purple Orange]

Morning everyone!

I’ve been reading about the TfGM plans for the expansion of Metrolink, which among many things highlights a couple of well known proposals to be delivered by 2030:

• Tram-trains to be introduced on the Atherton line, with the tram-trains exiting the mainline at Salford Crescent and continuing in to the city centre.
• Tram-trains to be introduced on the Marple, Glossop & Hadfield lines.
• Tram-trains on the CLC line to Warrington.

This will take away services from needing to use Piccadilly, Victoria and the Castlefield Corridor, but I believe this will only release 4 tph on the low numbered platforms in to Piccadilly from Hadfield, Glossop & Marple. It could be 5, if the service that continues to Strines is converted to tram-train too.

With that in mind:

1. Would any capacity be released in to Victoria and Oxford Road?
2. What impact could this have on the efficiency of the Castlefield corridor if capacity is released?
   1. Could more TPE services be routed in to Piccadilly via Guide Bridge rather than via the chord?
   2. Could it release capacity for more stopper services to Macclesfield, Crewe or Buxton etc?
   3. Could it make it worth splitting the Alderley Edge to Southport service?

Cheers

Purple Orange

 

[Llandudno]

Morning everyone!

I’ve been reading about the TfGM plans for the expansion of Metrolink, which among many things highlights a couple of well known proposals to be delivered by 2030:

• Tram-trains to be introduced on the Atherton line, with the tram-trains exiting the mainline at Salford Crescent and continuing in to the city centre.
• Tram-trains to be introduced on the Marple, Glossop & Hadfield lines.
• Tram-trains on the CLC line to Warrington.

This will take away services from needing to use Piccadilly, Victoria and the Castlefield Corridor, but I believe this will only release 4 tph on the low numbered platforms in to Piccadilly from Hadfield, Glossop & Marple. It could be 5, if the service that continues to Strines is converted to tram-train too.

With that in mind:

1. Would any capacity be released in to Victoria and Oxford Road?
2. What impact could this have on the efficiency of the Castlefield corridor if capacity is released?
   1. Could more TPE services be routed in to Piccadilly via Guide Bridge rather than via the chord?
   2. Could it release capacity for more stopper services to Macclesfield, Crewe or Buxton etc?
   3. Could it make it worth splitting the Alderley Edge to Southport service?

Cheers

Purple Orange

I can’t quite envisage Strines being the terminus for a tram-train, it’s in the middle of nowhere!

 

[wireforever]

Warrington seems to be stuck in the middle ;tram trains from Manchester and Merseyrail wishing to extend third rail electrics from Hunts Cross to Warrington.The stopper to Warrington is always held up at Oxford Road if the EMR express is running late

 

[Bletchleyite]

Warrington seems to be stuck in the middle ;tram trains from Manchester and Merseyrail wishing to extend third rail electrics from Hunts Cross to Warrington.The stopper to Warrington is always held up at Oxford Road if the EMR express is running late

5 trams an hour to Manchester (quite possibly closer to where they want than Oxford Road or Picc) or a Merseyrail every 15 minutes (same) would, I expect, be quite an attractive package for people from Warrington, and there's always Bank Quay (easier to park at anyway) if they really want an hourly express instead.

Ask Sandgrounders if they prefer the 45 minute, 15 minute frequency Merseyrail service or an overcrowded hourly/half hourly fast DMU and I know which it'd be. And people are mostly still using Merseyrail to get to Chester and not the TfW fast.

It's people on here who like interesting operations who prefer the present messy (and chronically unpunctual and overcrowded - it was both of these things when I used it in the late 90s) service.

 

[Purple Orange]

I can’t quite envisage Strines being the terminus for a tram-train, it’s in the middle of nowhere!

Strines gets 1 train every other hour. Therefore, what is essentially 2 tph to Marple, 1 would remain as a regular train, whereas it makes sense for the whole route to move to tram-train.

5 trams an hour to Manchester (quite possibly closer to where they want than Oxford Road or Picc) or a Merseyrail every 15 minutes (same) would, I expect, be quite an attractive package for people from Warrington, and there's always Bank Quay (easier to park at anyway) if they really want an hourly express instead.

Ask Sandgrounders if they prefer the 45 minute, 15 minute frequency Merseyrail service or an overcrowded hourly/half hourly fast DMU and I know which it'd be. And people are mostly still using Merseyrail to get to Chester and not the TfW fast.

It's people on here who like interesting operations who prefer the present messy (and chronically unpunctual and overcrowded - it was both of these things when I used it in the late 90s) service.

If 5 trams per hour can be achieved between Warrington, Wigan, Hadfield, Glossop, Marple and central Manchester, is it a correct assumption to conclude that the bottleneck is central Manchester rather than the through-put of the line itself?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Strines gets 1 train every other hour. Therefore, what is essentially 2 tph to Marple, 1 would remain as a regular train, whereas it makes sense for the whole route to move to tram-train.

I don't think Strines is really the issue, you could close it without anyone bar the Ramblers noticing. New Mills Central is more of an issue. Other than that you could run the Hope Valley stopper via Stockport, which I believe is the long term plan anyway.

 

[A0wen]

I think TfGM a bit like TFL have, as a result of Covid, got something of a financial challenge with much reduced farebox revenue and much increased costs.

It would be a good time for both of them to stop conjuring up clever ideas for problems they may not need to be resolving and more importantly attempting increasing number of land grabs outside of their jurisdictions.

 

[Llandudno]

5 trams an hour to Manchester (quite possibly closer to where they want than Oxford Road or Picc) or a Merseyrail every 15 minutes (same) would, I expect, be quite an attractive package for people from Warrington, and there's always Bank Quay (easier to park at anyway) if they really want an hourly express instead.

Ask Sandgrounders if they prefer the 45 minute, 15 minute frequency Merseyrail service or an overcrowded hourly/half hourly fast DMU and I know which it'd be. And people are mostly still using Merseyrail to get to Chester and not the TfW fast.

It's people on here who like interesting operations who prefer the present messy (and chronically unpunctual and overcrowded - it was both of these things when I used it in the late 90s) service.

It’s hardly surprising that Merseyrail is more popular than TfW for through journeys from Liverpool to Chester:
Trains every 15 minutes, 30 minutes evenings and Sundays, clockface timetable, 7 days a week
TfW hourly, non clockface, two hour gap in the evening, some cancelled trains through lack of crew
Merseyrail cheaper, Saveaway tickets and OAP passes throughout
Choice of four stations in Liverpool

The TfW route from Liverpool will come into its own when through services to Llandudno, Shrewsbury and Cardiff are established in December 2022. Although knowing TfW they probably won’t have enough trains or drivers in place to start the new service for at least another 12 months after that date!
Let’s hope they also check platform lengths BEFORE they plan to start running the service, unlike at Dolgarrog this week!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s hardly surprising that Merseyrail is more popular than TfW for through journeys from Liverpool to Chester:
Trains every 15 minutes, 30 minutes evenings and Sundays, clockface timetable, 7 days a week
TfW hourly, non clockface, two hour gap in the evening, some cancelled trains through lack of crew
Merseyrail cheaper, Saveaway tickets and OAP passes throughout
Choice of four stations in Liverpool

Exactly. The slow journey (and it is very slow!) is made up for by those other conveniences. Just as it (and Metrolink) would make up for it at Warrington.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think TfGM a bit like TFL have, as a result of Covid, got something of a financial challenge with much reduced farebox revenue and much increased costs.

It would be a good time for both of them to stop conjuring up clever ideas for problems they may not need to be resolving and more importantly attempting increasing number of land grabs outside of their jurisdictions.

Land grabs? What on earth are you on about?

Clearly a long term strategy is required. I only see benefits of expanding metrolink, which is proving to be a far better solution to local rail transport in Manchester than commuting on heavy rail.

Either way, in the long term this will happen, therefore what would be the knock-on effect on the heavy rail network?

 

[cle]

Platform space at Piccadilly, and paths in the Manchester area are gold dust. Anything which can remove and free some up has to be a good initiative.

Glossop is a good one as it has a higher frequency and would bring good service to under-served inner East Manchester suburbs, as well as the more affluent edges. Puts paid to Woodhead though! Marple/Rose Hill would be good too, but depends how many spare tph we have to send into Manchester, and where. Piccadilly Met terminators are the obvious first solve.

On the western side, the 2CC has capacity but Deansgate is a blocker / deal-breaker. Maybe building out Cornbrook with an additional platform or two, to turn some peak services would be ok. It is already an interchange between many lines, and there is more development out that way.

 

[Purple Orange]

Which begs the question, if 4 paths in to Piccadilly from the Glossop/Marple direction was freed up, what services would be best suited for taking their place?

I’d have thought services from the Stalybridge direction would be better placed, which could take the form of Manc-Leeds NPR services in time (assuming reversing NPR at Piccadilly).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Strines gets 1 train every other hour. Therefore, what is essentially 2 tph to Marple, 1 would remain as a regular train, whereas it makes sense for the whole route to move to tram-train.



If 5 trams per hour can be achieved between Warrington, Wigan, Hadfield, Glossop, Marple and central Manchester, is it a correct assumption to conclude that the bottleneck is central Manchester rather than the through-put of the line itself?

I am certain the only idea is to take over the Hyde line (not the Bredbury side) and to take over Rose Hill, meaning a service Picc - Ashburys - Romiley (direct) - Marple - New Mills etc is still going to be heavy rail.

The only sensible option amongst these, if you assume you want the diversionary capacity gone, is indeed the CLC to Warrington (possibly Warrington West) with Merseyrail doing the rest; and the Atherton line if you then imagine plain-lining Salford Crescent at the north end. And, of course, you have to then assume they would need to finish at Wigan and you’d end up with suitable call for battery Merseyrail etc from Kirby to the Wallgate bay,

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am certain the only idea is to take over the Hyde line (not the Bredbury side) and to take over Rose Hill, meaning a service Picc - Ashburys - Romiley (direct) - Marple - New Mills etc is still going to be heavy rail.

I believe it's the other way round due to high demand at Brinnington/Bredbury, but that the trams indeed would terminate at Rose Hill.

 

[tbtc]

Sounds a lot of potential positives - there's not a huge amount of "throat" capacity freed up by the Marple/Glossop services (since they are relatively self contained at the northern side of Piccadilly, running into the lower platforms without many conflicts with other services beyond the Hope Valley/New Mills ones (maybe it'd mean more scope for additional services on the Stockport line, if there's now going to be platform space at Piccadilly?) - but taking four trains per hour out of Deansgate would be a huge plus to Castlefield reliability (I know that only half of the CLC services run through to Piccadilly).

Splitting things at Warrington Central would mean some "awkward" connections as the Merseyside "every fifteen minutes" met the Mancunian "every twelve minutes"! Echoing the above points, I'm not sure how you'd get from Old Trafford into central Manchester though (given how busy the tram line through Cornbrook is already). Could you run beyond Warrington Central to serve Bank Quay too? That would be a big plus (even if it meant slow on-street running).

Converting the Atherton line sounds good but keeping the same alignment west of Salford Crescent seems a missed opportunity (given the way that it runs past golf courses/ industrial estates/ fields etc rather than diverting into yer actual town centres). That said, having a frequent Metrolink service from Salford Crescent into the heart of the city centre could be a great interchange for passengers coming off Bolton-line services.

 

[A0wen]

Land grabs? What on earth are you on about?

Warrington is outside TFGM's jurisdiction.

In TFLs case they seem to be trying to take on suburban services well outside their jurisdiction.

I have a huge concern that both of those bodies will focus on changes for the benefit of people who live in their jurisdiction at the expense of those that live outside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a huge concern that both of those bodies will focus on changes for the benefit of people who live in their jurisdiction at the expense of those that live outside.

I don't. Suggesting that Metrolink and Merseyrail to Warrington wouldn't benefit those places is like saying they'd be best off terminating Merseyrail at Maghull North with an hourly DMU serving Town Green, Aughton Park and Ormskirk, or the same on the Chester line. It's recognising that the area that travels to/from these major cities is a bit beyond the local Government boundaries.

The only people who would be really disadvantaged by the CLC being a Merseyrail/Metrolink split are people who live in/near Widnes or Warrington West and commute to Manchester, or near Birchwood or Urmston and commute to Liverpool. Literally everybody else would benefit due to the (considerable, in some cases) frequency upgrade and choice of destinations, and people in Warrington wouldn't lose as if they really want a less frequent fast DMU to Manchester there's the TfW and Northern ones from Bank Quay, plus an EMU to Liverpool if you prefer avoiding Merseyrail so you can put your feet on the seat (or something).

 

[Bevan Price]

5 trams an hour to Manchester (quite possibly closer to where they want than Oxford Road or Picc) or a Merseyrail every 15 minutes (same) would, I expect, be quite an attractive package for people from Warrington, and there's always Bank Quay (easier to park at anyway) if they really want an hourly express instead.

Ask Sandgrounders if they prefer the 45 minute, 15 minute frequency Merseyrail service or an overcrowded hourly/half hourly fast DMU and I know which it'd be. And people are mostly still using Merseyrail to get to Chester and not the TfW fast.

It's people on here who like interesting operations who prefer the present messy (and chronically unpunctual and overcrowded - it was both of these things when I used it in the late 90s) service.

I think that Warrington passengers would be very unhappy to see their fast services to Manchester & Liverpool replaced by "all shacks" trams taking an extra 15 to 20 minutes each way.

And WCML car parking charges do not make parking at Warrington Bank Quay an attractive proposition for anyone not on an expense account.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that Warrington passengers would be very unhappy to see their fast services to Manchester & Liverpool replaced by "all shacks" trams taking an extra 15 to 20 minutes each way.

Whereas I think, as evidenced by the high popularity of Merseyrail and Metrolink, that the considerable increase in frequency would tip that the other way.

One thing to look at may be the number of tickets sold for travel between Manchester and Rochdale (or vice versa) on Metrolink. The disparity there would be even greater, and I bet it would be very much nonzero.

And WCML car parking charges do not make parking at Warrington Bank Quay an attractive proposition for anyone not on an expense account.

Very surprised Central is only three quid per day. Does it fill up with commuters, I wonder? It must surely be cheaper than other town centre parking at that price. But that is not a reason not to make strategic decisions about the train service.

 

[The Ham]

I think that Warrington passengers would be very unhappy to see their fast services to Manchester & Liverpool replaced by "all shacks" trams taking an extra 15 to 20 minutes each way.

And WCML car parking charges do not make parking at Warrington Bank Quay an attractive proposition for anyone not on an expense account.

I've traveled on lines which have half hour frequency, the problem is that often if you need to change you'll find that it'll mean a 20+ minute wait for the next service.

If I've got the option of a more frequent service then even though it may take longer on the train for one leg I still get where I want to faster.

Also many like to get a train before the one they need to get, well the must get service is still about the same time or at most 12 minutes before the service you'd normally get; whilst the one before would be ~12 minutes before and not half an hour before.

Even the one before that would only be 24 minutes before. However going home is where people are likely to benefit most. If they have to finish something off at work, doing so doesn't get you home so much later.

Of course it's still possible that there could be fast trains which then become a stopping archive like once they're a bit further in. Which may only add 5-10 minutes.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think that Warrington passengers would be very unhappy to see their fast services to Manchester & Liverpool replaced by "all shacks" trams taking an extra 15 to 20 minutes each way.

And WCML car parking charges do not make parking at Warrington Bank Quay an attractive proposition for anyone not on an expense account.

We are talking about the 2030s here. The fact that there is currently another station to use mitigates the potential loss of a fast direct train, and let’s not forget that Warrington is central to the NPR proposals.

 

[A0wen]

One thing to look at may be the number of tickets sold for travel between Manchester and Rochdale (or vice versa) on Metrolink. The disparity there would be even greater, and I bet it would be very much nonzero.

Unless you really don't care about journey time there's no way you'd use the Metrolink to travel to Rochdale from Manchester - the journey time of the ML is pretty much double that of the heavy rail train from Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless you really don't care about journey time there's no way you'd use the Metrolink to travel to Rochdale from Manchester - the journey time of the ML is pretty much double that of the heavy rail train from Victoria.

I would still love to know the figures. I reckon the simplicity and frequency will be a big seller, just as it is for Merseyrail. And also because the tram is perceived as modern etc, unlike a filthy stinking 1980s DMU. (If it was a modern-looking electric railway with Class 334s, it might be seen differently.)

There's also that the tram may go nearer where you're going.

 

[A0wen]

I would still love to know the figures. I reckon the simplicity and frequency will be a big seller, just as it is for Merseyrail. And also because the tram is perceived as modern etc, unlike a filthy stinking 1980s DMU. (If it was a modern-looking electric railway with Class 334s, it might be seen differently.)

There's also that the tram may go nearer where you're going.

Well the correct answer is electrification of the line which may happen in any case - so having conflicting systems meeting at Warrington could be negated by simply wiring the whole thing at 25kv.

 

[Purple Orange]

I see no issue with metro link to Warrington. 5 tram/trains per hour from Central, plus heavy rail from BQ. What’s the issue? Plus, the tram/trains should have a similar journey time to the northern stoppers.

 

[cle]

I would be curious to know the journey times on the electric, light nippy Met vs today's DMUs. Even from Birchwood, which has a faster service. I would think there is a ton of suppressed demand from the likes of Urmston and Flixton.

Warrington to Manchester would be a bit of a concern, as it might be a good amount slower. Bank Quay would have 2tph to Victoria (both from Chester/NW) - but then if the South Wales service was to move up to Victoria (from another thread on Alderley Edge services) - then there might be agood enough uplift in fast services. Potentially some peak extra shuttles could run to Staly/Rochdale, if it was a big problem.

Widnes to Manchester, yes sorry, that's a casualty here. Would need a change, or another station (Lea Green? WBQ?) - Break eggs to make omelettes and all that.

 

[AndyB28]

Unless you really don't care about journey time there's no way you'd use the Metrolink to travel to Rochdale from Manchester - the journey time of the ML is pretty much double that of the heavy rail train from Victoria.

And not just time either! The seating is completely unsuitable for that sort of distance. If TfGM are wanting to increase service distances they really should be looking at seating that doesn't induce DVT!!!

 

[Purple Orange]

And not just time either! The seating is completely unsuitable for that sort of distance. If TfGM are wanting to increase service distances they really should be looking at seating that doesn't induce DVT!!!

Surely tram-train rolling stock will be different to the regular trams anyhow, therefore seating arrangements may be very different. On the flip side, there will still be heavy rail services between Manchester & Warrington.

 

[yorksrob]

Land grabs? What on earth are you on about?

Clearly a long term strategy is required. I only see benefits of expanding metrolink, which is proving to be a far better solution to local rail transport in Manchester than commuting on heavy rail.

Either way, in the long term this will happen, therefore what would be the knock-on effect on the heavy rail network?

Hopefully these ridiculous ideas will be shelved.

Electrification of the longer distance routes, such as Atherton and Liverpool via Warrington would be a better bet. This would enable a stable suburban style stopping service to be maintained along with longer distance through services.

It would be folly to rely on one route for main line services between Manchester and Liverpool. What are they going to do when there are engineering works. Put everyone on a bus ?

Surely tram-train rolling stock will be different to the regular trams anyhow, therefore seating arrangements may be very different. On the flip side, there will still be heavy rail services between Manchester & Warrington.

It will import delays from the uncontrollable city centre environment on to the main line.

 

[Purple Orange]

so you’d stick with an awful frequency over a high frequency? The rail network around Manchester is not fit for purpose and the last time I checked, the heavy rail Manchester city centre infrastructure was beset with unreliability.