Reports of people leaving London to escape Tier 4 restrictions.

[Baxenden Bank]

Could this be where compliance starts to break down? It's certainly a massive "2 fingers" to the restrictions.

I think compliance actually broke down ages ago.

Surely this is an excellent example of people following the rules?

It was announced that, from midnight, it would be forbidden to travel out of Tier 4. People wanted to travel, they did not want to break the new rules, so they rushed to travel whilst it was still permissible. Rather than travel after the midnight deadline and break the law / fail to follow the new guidance.

Whether that announcement resulted in travel on trains 'over socially-distanced capacity' is an issue the cretin/s introducing massive restrictions to liberty at only seven hours notice need to consider.

There is the issue, discussed elsewhere, as to what the law actually says, what the guidance says, and what someone says on TV/radio.

Personally I am now stuck at home alone for Christmas, with no 'seasonal' stuff in the house. My Tesco delivery having been last Thursday and adjusted to account for the fact that I would not be in my home at Christmas. The elderly mother has freezers full of food which she no longer has much need for. Fortunately her Tesco delivery was today and was substantially reduced last night. I hope £bn of stocks are left unsold in the supermarket supply chain and the message gets home that this is not the way to run one of the wealthiest counties in the world!

Back to the OP, my planned 'chauffeur' to the family home for Christmas was at a house in what is now Tier 4 but, following the announcement, was considering a pre-midnight 'great escape' under the wire to her other home which is in Tier 2 (work re-location and one house is up for sale, not a second/holiday home). Seems sensible to me, work from home in Tier 4 and effectively be under house arrest, or work from home in Tier 2 and get to visit places still.

An absolute clustermuck.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

We might now have a genuinely interesting upcoming episode of "Paddington Station 24/7" at a future date. Or maybe not.

“But this extreme flow passengers must be moved out of the way - or it will affect the upcoming rush hour”

 

[Domh245]

The timetabled stop was a full 10 minutes - plenty of time to do a set swap without extra delay.

Well, exactly. The set swap didn't have any impact on the lateness of the service

As an aside, I did note that in one of the twitter videos from onboard which looked an awful lot like a Meridian interior - I suspect that was what forced the set change! Whether the meridian on that diagram was because of something earlier in the day or some very good reactive work from EMR to put some more capacity on, I don't know

 

[adc82140]

I've seen a quote somewhere (sorry can't remember exactly where, it was on an official Twitter account of someone in the Scottish government) that the head of Police Scotland has told his officers not to set up roadblocks etc as it would be inappropriate. I think the police are starting to feel the squeeze here. What they are being asked to do will undo decades of community engagement work.

 

[43096]

Well, exactly. The set swap didn't have any impact on the lateness of the service

As an aside, I did note that in one of the twitter videos from onboard which looked an awful lot like a Meridian interior - I suspect that was what forced the set change! Whether the meridian on that diagram was because of something earlier in the day or some very good reactive work from EMR to put some more capacity on, I don't know

Normally that service (1F70 2001 from St. Pancras) is booked HST throughout as it finishes at Leeds. For whatever reason yesterday the diagram ran as a 5-car 222 through the day and a planned set swap was done at Derby on the last working of its diagram.

 

[joncombe]

The general consensus is - if you don't get out of London you may be trapped for sometime (months according to Matt Hancock this morning) so this is just natural human instinct or self preservation to get to safety and be with family and loved ones ASAP.

Exactly. A very similar thing happened with the very first European lock down, the northern part of Italy when word got out it was about to happen and a mass exodus occurred.

 

[adc82140]

The general consensus is - if you don't get out of London you may be trapped for sometime (months according to Matt Hancock this morning)

Matt Hancock has already "mis spoken" this week. I fear this is another of those occasions, and he has caused alarm and choas by doing so.

 

[Domh245]

Normally that service (1F70 2001 from St. Pancras) is booked HST throughout as it finishes at Leeds. For whatever reason yesterday the diagram ran as a 5-car 222 through the day and a planned set swap was done at Derby on the last working of its diagram.

A 5 car will have been pretty cosy! At least it should have been a little better with the 6 car (presumably? Aren't the ex-EMT rakes all stopped now?) HST from Derby

 

[43096]

A 5 car will have been pretty cosy! At least it should have been a little better with the 6 car (presumably? Aren't the ex-EMT rakes all stopped now?) HST from Derby

I think it was set NL11, so 8-car ex-EMT set. Could have done with that from London!

 

[yorkie]

It does say that many trains were fully booked (to Covid limits) so perhaps NRE was offering the St Pancras-Leeds direct trains as the only available option, as the trains from Kings Cross would fill up first.

No; it's got nothing to do with Leeds, which just happened to be the final destination of the train.

The general consensus is - if you don't get out of London you may be trapped for sometime (months according to Matt Hancock this morning) so this is just natural human instinct or self preservation to get to safety and be with family and loved ones ASAP.

As I commented on a previous thread - there are bound to be some serious mental health issues developing in the coming weeks caused by loneliness and isolation caused by Tier 4. The rail commuters here are simply doing what's necessary to keep their own sanity which I can't criticise them for.

CJ

Exactly. Many people would have planned to travel back home in the coming days but then were told they had to travel on that day. Matt Hancock is therefore the irresponsible one, as well as being clueless.

More government lies quoted in that LBS article (https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london-tier-4-police-train-transport-non-essential-travel-kings-cross/)



It is not true that across the rest of the country you 'must stay local' - there are no travel restrictions, and the legal requirement is that you are bound by the tier rules of whichever is the higher of the tier you live in or the one you have travelled to.

I see that the protecting lives and the NHS catch-phrases are in regular use - no doubt the government's guidelines for covid press releases say that they must always be used!

The media love hyperbole and lies because it acts as clickbait / sells papers.

I've seen a quote somewhere (sorry can't remember exactly where, it was on an official Twitter account of someone in the Scottish government) that the head of Police Scotland has told his officers not to set up roadblocks etc as it would be inappropriate. I think the police are starting to feel the squeeze here. What they are being asked to do will undo decades of community engagement work.

Good. And yes it will, as was mentioned in other threads. The police as a force have lost some of my respect, though I won't hold that against any individual officers who are treating the public with the appropriate amount of respect.

Matt Hancock has already "mis spoken" this week. I fear this is another of those occasions, and he has caused alarm and choas by doing so.

He has but he will blame the people he caused panic and alarm to, rather than himself as he is not living in the real world and has no comprehension of reality. He's totally out of his depth. I doubt many people respect him.

People are confused and angry, and understandably so:

https://twitter.com/Jamie20574/status/1340727940661862401

So police are stopping Londoners at train stations etc from leaving unless they can prove its essential?!?!?... I’ve got no words this is beyond sick

What about the people who don't live in London? Are they not allowed to travel back to where they are from? Where the hell would they be expected to stay? And their money would run out eventually too.

 

[Jozhua]

The government announced new restrictions with just over 7 hours notice, many of these people are going home and in most cases probably earlier than planned.

When Matt Hancock "slams" people's behavior, not thinking it might be a natural response to the absolute shambolic response.

Given it was the last Saturday before Christmas as well as what would have been a major shopping day (especially with Boris having decided to close all the shops through November), I’m not sure this is quite the story it’s being made out to be. It does seem a bit quick for Boris to have made the announcement in the late afternoon and then suddenly all the hoards have put their life possessions in a suitcase and made a dash for St Pancras in time for 8 o clock.

Obviously one way or other the packed train wasn’t a desirable situation.

People were probably ready for something to crack-off, so many probably had their bags already somewhat packed. Remember it's a Friday, so many people will have had travel planned anyway, if not on the day, over the weekend.

The world no longer works in a sensible way, so it doesn't suprise me whatsoever.

In a lot of situations it certainly did.

I do wonder whether the more enthusiastic Locktivists genuinely don't realise this, because they are hiding away at home and getting supermarket deliveries, and assuming that the majority are doing the same. Looking at the comments on Twitter articles does suggest that this is happening at least to some degree.

Probably wouldn't suprise me lol. I can tell you the exception is actually the rule, and the rules are the exception.

I've seen a quote somewhere (sorry can't remember exactly where, it was on an official Twitter account of someone in the Scottish government) that the head of Police Scotland has told his officers not to set up roadblocks etc as it would be inappropriate. I think the police are starting to feel the squeeze here. What they are being asked to do will undo decades of community engagement work.

Doesn't suprise me - policing is already under a lot of pressure, in some aspects rightly so - punishing people for day-to-day existence will not help perception at all.

Unfortunately, it is another weapon to be used against minorities, working class and young people by those who have an axe to grind.

 

[theironroad]

We might now have a genuinely interesting upcoming episode of "Paddington Station 24/7" at a future date. Or maybe not.

I like the programme and even learnt bits and bobs , especially the pway and s&t incident responses, however I'm beginning to find that, even on the railway, there's only so much interesting drama to be had. I don't watch it live , so fast forward button is getting its use!

 

[mafeu]

Arriving into St Pancras on Saturday evening for my weekly commute North, McDonald’s in tow, for the 2100, I was greeted by a massive crowd.

Social distancing went out of the window as, not the crowd’s fault, there’s not enough room! Barriers locked and platform ‘pending’.*

A ten minute wait until barriers activated and platform announced. Platform 2 as normal. I was rather annoyed by then as I was thinking about my McDonald’s going cold... cue mad rush to the train.

The 2100 was certainly full to capacity! There did seem to be a fair few Leeds travellers aboard as there was talk of onward transport. I suspect the majority were for South Yorkshire though.

Apologies to those travellers who had to endure the smell off my cold McDonald’s feast. Normally I have the carriage to myself!

I salute the rebels heading home on Saturday. I’d have done exactly the same. Then again, I believe we need to get on with our lives (those who can, admittedly some should stay safe at home) and not be beholden to a virus that most will get better from. Living life in fear is illogical.

* Not sure why they don’t allow passengers to spread out along the platform? I complained previously to EMR about this. Their response was it’s the passenger’s responsibility, not theirs. My take is that it’s their responsibility to provide space or influence the decision with station statf

 

[WesternLancer]

Of course it was a good time for the DfT to (presumably) OK the reduction in use of EMR 2+8 HSTs and OK the decision to shorted the ex LNER sets to 2+6....

as obv a rush of demand in the run up and over xmas could never have been predicted....

 

[johntea]

It got reported in the Yorkshire Evening Post

EMR did NOT have ticket limits in place to stop packed London to Leeds train - but promises review

East Midlands Railway (EMR) has promised a review after passengers were forced to abandon social distancing on packed trains leaving London.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk

Train company EMR will hold review after 'exceptional one-off incident' of overcrowded London to Leeds train​

East Midlands Railway (EMR) has promised a review after passengers were forced to abandon social distancing on packed trains leaving London.​

Passengers packed onto an EMR train from London to Leeds on Saturday afternoon following the announcement that London was about to be placed in Tier 4 restrictions - a new, tougher level of Covid measures - from midnight.

But many passengers were shocked to discover, once they boarded the service, that too many tickets had been sold to allow social distancing to be observed safely onboard.

From the sounds of it EMR were given as much notice as the public about the upcoming restrictions, i.e. none so I suspect the choices were 'let people flood on' or 'try to restrict passengers boarding and watch as chaos and platform fights ensued'

 

[DB]

It got reported in the Yorkshire Evening Post

EMR did NOT have ticket limits in place to stop packed London to Leeds train - but promises review

East Midlands Railway (EMR) has promised a review after passengers were forced to abandon social distancing on packed trains leaving London.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk

From the sounds of it EMR were given as much notice as the public about the upcoming restrictions, i.e. none so I suspect the choices were 'let people flood on' or 'try to restrict passengers boarding and watch as chaos and platform fights ensued'

I really can't see that EMR did anything wrong - they were placed an impossible situation by the government, and made the best of it so far as they could. Can't see what more they could have done.

 

[Crossover]

It got reported in the Yorkshire Evening Post

EMR did NOT have ticket limits in place to stop packed London to Leeds train - but promises review

East Midlands Railway (EMR) has promised a review after passengers were forced to abandon social distancing on packed trains leaving London.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk

From the sounds of it EMR were given as much notice as the public about the upcoming restrictions, i.e. none so I suspect the choices were 'let people flood on' or 'try to restrict passengers boarding and watch as chaos and platform fights ensued'

I hope this doesn't spell the start of compulsory reservations with them, too. Presumably on LNER, it would have been impossible for the train to overfill due to it, whereas everyone could buy walk ups for the likes of EMR

Personally, I don't think EMR should be held to account for it - it is a symptom of a problem of the way the Government are treating the nation

 

[kristiang85]

* Not sure why they don’t allow passengers to spread out along the platform? I complained previously to EMR about this. Their response was it’s the passenger’s responsibility, not theirs. My take is that it’s their responsibility to provide space or influence the decision with station statf

This seems to be the MO now... blame the public for everything rather than the policies imposed on the public.

 

[DB]

I hope this doesn't spell the start of compulsory reservations with them, too. Presumably on LNER, it would have been impossible for the train to overfill due to it, whereas everyone could buy walk ups for the likes of EMR

Personally, I don't think EMR should be held to account for it - it is a symptom of a problem of the way the Government are treating the nation

Did LNER have problems? I know they say compulsory reservations, but if people crowd on there's not much they can do other than ge tthe BTP to throw them off - which would really not go down well with the public.

 

[bramling]

I really can't see that EMR did anything wrong - they were placed an impossible situation by the government, and made the best of it so far as they could. Can't see what more they could have done.

Hardly EMR’s fault. I suppose they could have cancelled the service outright, but that would have probably caused a riot. Making some people leave would have been even more incendiary.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hardly EMR’s fault. I suppose they could have cancelled the service outright, but that would have probably caused a riot. Making some people leave would have been even more incendiary.

Yes, if people needed to or wanted to travel they must have been grateful for EMR having services that allowed it - rather than being barred form getting on "full up" operators services - they might have been a lot more angry at govt/the railway etc etc. I've found the way EMR have handled things very good.

 

[Crossover]

Did LNER have problems? I know they say compulsory reservations, but if people crowd on there's not much they can do other than ge tthe BTP to throw them off - which would really not go down well with the public.

I don't know on that, I'm afraid. I am just assuming they didn't have issues

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would the availability of online tickets for LNER services up North have "disappeared" on Saturday evening (due to all socially-distanced counted reservations having already been taken) leaving the EMT service(s) as one of the few alternatives still showing?

 

[WesternLancer]

Would the availability of online tickets for LNER services up North have "disappeared" on Saturday evening (due to all socially-distanced counted reservations having already been taken) leaving the EMT service(s) as one of the few alternatives still showing?

Highly likely I would think. Those in the know would buy walk up - take a local train to eg stevenage and just get on LNER there, would they not, and probably no one would raise any issues, but many people just use journey planners and unless they were amended at very short notice that's exactly what would have happened IMHO.

 

[bb21]

This seems to be the MO now... blame the public for everything rather than the policies imposed on the public.

You mean, you are questioning why they won't bite the hand that feeds them?

 

[Butts]

Was there any checking of destinations for passengers travelling today ?

Especially to Scotland and Wales.

 

[island]

Has it been established that it is actually ILLEGAL to travel to/from Tier 4 areas?

It is clearly legal.

However, a resident of a tier 4 area travelling out of area may be in breach of the requirement that they do not leave or remain away from home without reasonable excuse.

 

[bramling]

It is clearly legal.

However, a resident of a tier 4 area travelling out of area may be in breach of the requirement that they do not leave or remain away from home without reasonable excuse.

Does the law as it now stands allow a tier 4 resident to travel an unlimited distance for the purpose of outdoor recreation?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Seeing the crowds at St. Pancras - possibly partly due to the restricted concourse - I wonder how passenger numbers compared to those that are expected to pass through when there's a 12 car 360 every half hour (as well, of course, as the longer distance services).

 

[island]

Does the law as it now stands allow a tier 4 resident to travel an unlimited distance for the purpose of outdoor recreation?

To be legal it must be reasonably necessary.

Were a theoretical case to get to court, I wager one might have trouble convincing magistrates that it was reasonable to travel 100 miles to a park if one has five others in a 10-mile radius. But I am not a magistrate and there is not to my knowledge any binding case law.

In practice, using common sense and passing the attitude test if challenged will probably keep one out of trouble.