Request for help: LNER Fare Trial Ripoff

[AlterEgo]

Good morning!

I'm in the process of making a YouTube video highlighting LNER's gross ripoff fares as a result of their trial and the fake "compulsory" reservation policy. I'm going to fly from Edinburgh to London, via Amsterdam with KLM, in 3h15m - my plane ticket is cheaper than the fully flexible fare, but not cheaper than the old off peak fares. I'm going to use the stunt to outline the squeezing of punters on the ECML and the ripoff currently in progress with the trial.

Hopefully the viewer pipeline is "Wow what a stupid stunt, who does this? > Ok wow LNER is a rip off I did not realise this > Oh ok you don't need to fly, here are some alternative ways of saving"

To avoid cluttering the original thread - which is huge - could some posters help me clarify my thinking and help with some examples? This is going to be a general video which does not get into the technical aspects of ticketing, so I'd really like the hive mind's help with:

- Instances you've seen where only the flexible fare has been on sale (dates/major events?)
- Instances you've seen where NO tickets were sold as "reservations were all gone" (dates/major events)
- Alternatives other than taking Haymarket-London Off Peak Return, or taking Lumo - anything more interesting or cheaper? Creative ways to avoid LNER!
- Examples of any hardship or irritation you've suffered - had to make a distress or urgent journey and found your ticket more expensive than the old off peak?
- Examples where you've seen the Advance fares on your trip rise - because the Off Peak cap has now gone?
- Tales of LNER journeys, have you had any particularly bad ones since the trial?

Also, if you could sum up the trial in one sentence, please do - what it means to you, or what you think the aim is generally. I'd really like some perspectives which aren't my own to give some backing to the video!

Thanks.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The vast majority of "normal" LNER customers are still buying the same/similar tickets as they always bought - Advance singles. That is why, despite occasional media attention, it's not cutting through to your typical passenger. Same with mandatory reservations, most people would agree that intercity style trains shouldn't allow standing customers and all passengers allocated a seat.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I'd discredit the entire thing, all in one go - just as I would discredit an entire newspaper if I saw something published that was blatantly wrong (like the anti-EV FUD that some publish) - if it appeared to as biased as your summary above. It takes no account of the fact airports are not co-located with rail termini in either place; So my first suggestion is that you make your comparison exactly like-for-like.

Where are you starting out? Where are you ending up? How will you travel to and from the airports or rail stations. Include the costs (buses, tubes, parking as applicable). Include the time it takes to get from whichever terminal to or from your actual point/s of origin. For example, if your end-point is (say) Oxford Circus, you need to add fares and time for the trips from the rail terminus or airport to that point. Your air trip time of 3h15 becomes closer to 4h15 if it takes an hour to get from the airport, and possibly another 30 minutes on top exiting the plane and the airport. Account for the required early check-in on departure. And so on.

Do you want to consider any environmental impact? Do you want to compare the conditions of that air fare with the conditions (cancellation, change, flexibility) of your rail fare? etc.

In other words - you need to be making as clean and fair a comparison as you can.

Appreciate I have not added answeers to your specific questions. But I hope I'm pointing you towards validation of your ridiculous (your term) comparison to make it as balanced as it can be.

 

[bakerstreet]

The vast majority of "normal" LNER customers are still buying the same/similar tickets as they always bought - Advance singles. That is why, despite occasional media attention, it's not cutting through to your typical passenger. Same with mandatory reservations, most people would agree that intercity style trains shouldn't allow standing customers and all passengers allocated a seat.

Morning @AlterEgo

The above is an important point and demonstrates the significant misunderstanding and confusion that most passengers have.

It’s an ingenious plan from LNER to DfT.

Many people are buying the same ticket they always bought but at a significantly higher cost, with no guarantee of its availability, with no flexibility in times of disruption (the 70 flex isn’t even tweaked to account for disruption), leading to even more friction between passengers and staff.

They probably have no understanding why their advanced singles are so much higher, why they are often not available, why the only fare on offer is a first class fare, where the super off-peak/off-peak singles and returns have gone and I’ll probably also unaware of the dreadful ramifications if this is rolled out across the GB network.

These are the really important things to get across in your video – thank you for doing it!

LNER claims to want to preserve the walk up railway, to want to keep fares affordable, to make fares simpler.
Almost every announcement regarding this that they have made I would reluctantly place under the category of gaslighting.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd discredit the entire thing, all in one go - just as I would discredit an entire newspaper if I saw something published that was blatantly wrong (like the anti-EV FUD that some publish) - if it appeared to as biased as your summary above. It takes no account of the fact airports are not co-located with rail termini in either place; So my first suggestion is that you make your comparison exactly like-for-like.

Where are you starting out? Where are you ending up? How will you travel to and from the airports or rail stations. Include the costs (buses, tubes, parking as applicable). Include the time it takes to get from whichever terminal to or from your actual point/s of origin. For example, if your end-point is (say) Oxford Circus, you need to add fares and time for the trips from the rail terminus or airport to that point. Your air trip time of 3h15 becomes closer to 4h15 if it takes an hour to get from the airport.

Do you want to consider any environmental impact? Do you want to compare the conditions of that air fare with the conditions (cancellation, change, flexibility) of your rail fare? etc.

In other words - you need to be making as clean and fair a comparison as you can.

So, to be clear, this is not a comparison of train v plane. The point of the video is *not* "it is cheaper and better to fly, you should do this".

The point is, as outlined in the opening post "Wow what a stupid stunt, who does this? > Ok wow LNER is a rip off I did not realise this > Oh ok you don't need to fly, here are some alternative ways of saving"

I would like people's help in outlining:
what the fare trial has meant to them
how it has affected them
whether they are paying more
times they have been unable to make a reservation or been unable to see any fixed tickets
and so on.

The video will explain what alternatives are available, like getting your tickets from Haymarket, like using Lumo, or any other inventive savings forum members can come up with. That is - to keep people on the train, but circumvent the fares trial LNER are making.

The people on this forum are not the intended audience, so I am not concerned with whether anyone thinks the concept is sound, but rather asking for assistance in gathering examples, and inventive ways to save on rail travel I have not yet considered.

Morning @AlterEgo

The above is an important point and demonstrates the significant misunderstanding and confusion that most passengers have.

It’s an ingenious plan from LNER to DfT.

Many people are buying the same ticket they always bought but at a significantly higher cost, with no guarantee of its availability, with no flexibility in times of disruption (the 70 flex isn’t even tweaked to account for disruption), leading to even more friction between passengers and staff.

Thank you. This is a good summary - I'm really looking for this kind of snappy stuff as it's for YouTube.

They probably have no understanding why their advanced singles are so much higher, why they are often not available, why the only fare on offer is a first class fare, where the super off-peak/off-peak singles and returns have gone and I’ll probably also unaware of the dreadful ramifications if this is rolled out across the GB network.

I will be covering this in the video, at a surface level - thanks.

These are the really important things to get across in your video – thank you for doing it!

LNER claims to want to preserve the walk up railway

Have they said this in their press releases? If so, can you point me to one? I think I can take that down a peg or two with some examples I've found where no tickets have been on sale.

 

[bakerstreet]

Have they said this in their press releases? If so, can you point me to one? I think I can take that down a peg or two with some examples I've found where no tickets have been on sale.

This is the kind of thing they’ve been saying.

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

It's only politically acceptable because politicians are happy to accept it. I suspect that most of them don't fully understand the implications of this either.

www.railforums.co.uk

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

TOCS already have booking engines though and we have somehow managed to pay for lots of them rather than 1. That is a huge amount of duplication. So we have duplication of similar functionality of booking engines in public ownership and a slightly better private sector effort that is attracting...

www.railforums.co.uk

LNER: Why we're reforming our fares

David Flesher, Commercial Director at LNER explains the reasoning behind its 'Simpler Fares' scheme, which some critics fear will push prices higher.

www.railmagazine.com

LNER Launches Pioneering Pilot To Further Simplify Fares

LNER is proud to launch a new Simpler Fares pilot scheme for selected journeys along the East Coast route, further enhancing its customer experience.

www.lner.co.uk

David Horne, Managing Director at LNER, said:“LNER remains at the forefront of rail reform. Simplifying fares is vital in making rail travel more attractive. Customers tell us they find fares confusing.

“This exciting new pilot is the next step in our plans to overhaul complicated and outdated ticketing options and we look forward to hearing feedback from our customers. We believe that making fares simpler, smarter, and fairer, while introducing value for money and modern flexibility, will encourage more people to choose to travel by rail, the most sustainable travel choice.”

Stewart Fox-Mills, Fares, Ticketing and Retail Programme Director at GBRTT said: “It is great to see this next step in the simplification of rail fares. This pilot will move the dial towards simpler and better fares for customers. The cross-industry Fares, Ticketing and Retail Programme is bringing the railway together to coordinate introducing simpler fares packages, building on the great work LNER is delivering.”

Might also be worth reaching out to man in seat 61. He (I think it was him) was initially v supportive of the idea. Then understood its impact.
He might be well placed to explain what exactly led him to his original thought (for that’s what’s also misleading passengers) and unpick it.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is the kind of thing they’ve been saying.

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

It's only politically acceptable because politicians are happy to accept it. I suspect that most of them don't fully understand the implications of this either.

www.railforums.co.uk

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

TOCS already have booking engines though and we have somehow managed to pay for lots of them rather than 1. That is a huge amount of duplication. So we have duplication of similar functionality of booking engines in public ownership and a slightly better private sector effort that is attracting...

www.railforums.co.uk

Might also be worth reaching out to man in seat 61. He (I think it was him) was initially v supportive of the idea. Then understood its impact.
He might be well placed to explain what exactly led him to his original thought (for that’s what’s also misleading passengers) and unpick it.

I have already, and I’ve got his tweets supporting the trial yes the Trojan horse of the trial is the removal of the Advance fare cap which was there as a result of a flexible off peak being at a certain price. This will be the fundamental point of the video, as well as outlining some key examples of severe gouging (eg: fully flex tickets only available). I’ve been slowly gathering a few examples, but really interested to read more from other posters about how their journeys have got more expensive!

 

[ainsworth74]

How about this from February when I was at Edinburgh looking at a TVM for immediate travel?

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

It's this that gives me the main issue with it - it's deliberately obfuscatory and dishonest. There is a problem on the long distance railway that has been bubbling for a long time, namely that business is moving away from travel entirely, so the "peaks" are no longer peaks and there aren't...

www.railforums.co.uk

Or this one where the fake compulsory reservations meant that people were looking having to buy 1st class tickets rather than off-peaks?

Grand Central stranding passengers (28/03)?

Resurrecting a moderately-aged thread.... but they have truly shown how they will handle the situation tonight with this tweet/X: The text in the attached screenshot of a tweet from Grand Central states: "Cancelled: Our 19:27 London Kings Cross-Sunderland service has been cancelled. Ticket...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

How about this from February when I was at Edinburgh looking at a TVM for immediate travel?

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

It's this that gives me the main issue with it - it's deliberately obfuscatory and dishonest. There is a problem on the long distance railway that has been bubbling for a long time, namely that business is moving away from travel entirely, so the "peaks" are no longer peaks and there aren't...

www.railforums.co.uk

Or this one where the fake compulsory reservations meant that people were looking having to buy 1st class tickets rather than off-peaks?

Grand Central stranding passengers (28/03)?

Resurrecting a moderately-aged thread.... but they have truly shown how they will handle the situation tonight with this tweet/X: The text in the attached screenshot of a tweet from Grand Central states: "Cancelled: Our 19:27 London Kings Cross-Sunderland service has been cancelled. Ticket...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thank you! The first is a really good example. (The fare has risen even since then, too! It’s now £199.60)

 

[bakerstreet]

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

The fees for flexability are a common feature throughout the travel and accomodation market though in my experience. The likes of premier inn and booking.com youll be most likely be looking at a premium of the best part of a tenner for the ability to reschedule and more than that for a...

www.railforums.co.uk

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

It's this that gives me the main issue with it - it's deliberately obfuscatory and dishonest. There is a problem on the long distance railway that has been bubbling for a long time, namely that business is moving away from travel entirely, so the "peaks" are no longer peaks and there aren't...

www.railforums.co.uk

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

According to LNER, about 12% of sales on the trial flows are off-peak ticket types. The biggest single influencer of purchase is price. A proportion of those off-peak tickets will be on the day sales too. Flexibility is a factor and getting that formulation rights for the semi-flexible ticket...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Mike395]

Good morning!

I'm in the process of making a YouTube video highlighting LNER's gross ripoff fares as a result of their trial and the fake "compulsory" reservation policy. I'm going to fly from Edinburgh to London, via Amsterdam with KLM, in 3h15m - my plane ticket is cheaper than the fully flexible fare, but not cheaper than the old off peak fares. I'm going to use the stunt to outline the squeezing of punters on the ECML and the ripoff currently in progress with the trial.

Hopefully the viewer pipeline is "Wow what a stupid stunt, who does this? > Ok wow LNER is a rip off I did not realise this > Oh ok you don't need to fly, here are some alternative ways of saving"

To avoid cluttering the original thread - which is huge - could some posters help me clarify my thinking and help with some examples? This is going to be a general video which does not get into the technical aspects of ticketing, so I'd really like the hive mind's help with:

- Instances you've seen where only the flexible fare has been on sale (dates/major events?)
- Instances you've seen where NO tickets were sold as "reservations were all gone" (dates/major events)
- Alternatives other than taking Haymarket-London Off Peak Return, or taking Lumo - anything more interesting or cheaper? Creative ways to avoid LNER!
- Examples of any hardship or irritation you've suffered - had to make a distress or urgent journey and found your ticket more expensive than the old off peak?
- Examples where you've seen the Advance fares on your trip rise - because the Off Peak cap has now gone?
- Tales of LNER journeys, have you had any particularly bad ones since the trial?

Also, if you could sum up the trial in one sentence, please do - what it means to you, or what you think the aim is generally. I'd really like some perspectives which aren't my own to give some backing to the video!

Thanks.

Unfortunately - flying is the comparison I’d focus on, capacity-constrained Lumo aside. A week out, I can get an EasyJet flight from Luton reliably under £50. If I’m just going away for a weekend and only needing a backpack, it’s both quicker and significantly cheaper. The Haymarket solution works for rail of course - but the average person is going to see that LNER price and check their low cost airline of choice.

An example: Bedford to Edinburgh Friday-Sunday. I’ve booked a Friday evening flight up and Sunday evening flight back for under £100. Quicker end to end, no liquids restrictions outbound and before long that route won’t have them at all. Actually not a terrible experience.

(Edit: Should add that per request I'm not trying to say flying is better, it fundamentally isn't and with split ticketing, Edinburgh by train is usually affordable except at the busiest of times such as my example above. However the *average* person isn't going to know to plumb their search into Trainsplit to get a better price to compare against, and also independently check Haymarket too....)

 

[BRX]

On the main thread there were a few including me describing the scenario of visiting a seriously ill relative. That was my situation last year; it was before this trial started but if I imagine doing the same thing now, there's no doubt it would have been more stressful. I was travelling up and down between London and Scotland, every couple of weeks or so, and much of the time I was using Off peak tickets because of the combination of (a) certainty of price (b) confidence that I'd be able to travel at that price at short notice. Both of those things would be gone under the trial scheme. Instead of knowing that I could stay a few days longer at any point, and knowing that I'd always be able to travel at short notice, I'd have been under the additional stress of worrying that if I didn't book a ticket in advance for a certain day I might find myself paying an extortionate price, and this would have started affecting my decisions at a time that was really the last thing I wanted to have to be thinking about.

 

[akm]

The video will explain what alternatives are available, like getting your tickets from Haymarket, like using Lumo, or any other inventive savings forum members can come up with. That is - to keep people on the train, but circumvent the fares trial LNER are making.

Being careful not to to arouse the ire of the forum by giving away too many 'trade secrets', of course?

 

[DanNCL]

I think the point would be especially well conveyed if you looked up the price of the LNER journey and the KLM journey for the same date booking the same amount of time in advance, and showing KLM to be cheaper.

I'd discredit the entire thing, all in one go - just as I would discredit an entire newspaper if I saw something published that was blatantly wrong (like the anti-EV FUD that some publish) - if it appeared to as biased as your summary above. It takes no account of the fact airports are not co-located with rail termini in either place; So my first suggestion is that you make your comparison exactly like-for-like.

Where are you starting out? Where are you ending up? How will you travel to and from the airports or rail stations. Include the costs (buses, tubes, parking as applicable). Include the time it takes to get from whichever terminal to or from your actual point/s of origin. For example, if your end-point is (say) Oxford Circus, you need to add fares and time for the trips from the rail terminus or airport to that point. Your air trip time of 3h15 becomes closer to 4h15 if it takes an hour to get from the airport, and possibly another 30 minutes on top exiting the plane and the airport. Account for the required early check-in on departure. And so on.

Do you want to consider any environmental impact? Do you want to compare the conditions of that air fare with the conditions (cancellation, change, flexibility) of your rail fare? etc.

In other words - you need to be making as clean and fair a comparison as you can.

Appreciate I have not added answeers to your specific questions. But I hope I'm pointing you towards validation of your ridiculous (your term) comparison to make it as balanced as it can be.

I have given an example that’s probably even more mad and I’ve included local transport costs in my costings. Still cheaper than LNER’s anytime single. On the flexibility point, the anytime single is often the only ticket available, if cheaper tickets equivalent to airline tickets were available they’d be used instead but they’re often not. Effectively you could say people are being charged for ‘extras’ that they don’t need or want.

- Instances you've seen where only the flexible fare has been on sale (dates/major events?)
- Instances you've seen where NO tickets were sold as "reservations were all gone" (dates/major events)
- Alternatives other than taking Haymarket-London Off Peak Return, or taking Lumo - anything more interesting or cheaper? Creative ways to avoid LNER!
- Examples of any hardship or irritation you've suffered - had to make a distress or urgent journey and found your ticket more expensive than the old off peak?
- Examples where you've seen the Advance fares on your trip rise - because the Off Peak cap has now gone?
- Tales of LNER journeys, have you had any particularly bad ones since the trial?

Also, if you could sum up the trial in one sentence, please do - what it means to you, or what you think the aim is generally. I'd really like some perspectives which aren't my own to give some backing to the video!

Thanks.

To answer each of these individually:
- pretty much any occasion Newcastle United are playing at home, but especially if playing against a London team. Also if Newcastle United are playing away anywhere in Greater London.
- same as above
- full story at bottom of post
- Can’t think of any, simply as I’ve been actively avoiding LNER for most of that time.
- I’d estimate more than half of the trains from Newcastle to London now have more expensive advances than the cost of the old super off peak single.
- none since the trial but plenty of incidents on LNER from before, happy to share them if interested.

In one sentance: LNER are basically doing the airlines’ marketing for them.

For my alternative. In Feb I was looking for a last minute trip away, was going to do London by train but unless I was going to split ticket LNER wanted to charge the full anytime single fare. I figured if I had to research my own fares anyway I might as well do something more adventurous.
For this I’m comparing the full non-discounted fare for LNER against the full non-discounted fare for the route I took. In both cases prices are for travel on the same date, looked up three days in advance.

Step 1: taxi from origin in Newcastle’s suburbs to Newcastle Airport (£15)
Step 2: Jet2 flight to Salzburg (£30)
Step 3: Trolleybus to Salzburg Hbf (€2.50)
Step 4: Sparschiene on ÖBB Railjet to Vienna Airport (€35)
Step 5: British Airways flight to Heathrow (£90)
Step 6: Elizabeth line to Central London (£12.80)
For purposes of calculation 1 euro is considered equivalent to £1. In practice 1 euro is slightly less than £1.
Total cost: £185.30

Going via train:
Bus from origin in Newcastle’s suburbs to the station: £2
LNER anytime single Newcastle to London: £195.70
Total cost: £197.70

So my route via Austria was £12 cheaper than an LNER train would have been for anyone without a railcard.

Now granted I’m not the typical passenger and most people would rather just get there than faff around with a tour of Austria just to save £10 but I think this highlights the ridiculousness of LNER’s pricing.

 

[akm]

For my alternative. In Feb I was looking for a last minute trip away, was going to do London by train but unless I was going to split ticket LNER wanted to charge the full anytime single fare. I figured if I had to research my own fares anyway I might as well do something more adventurous.
For this I’m comparing the full non-discounted fare for LNER against the full non-discounted fare for the route I took. In both cases prices are for travel on the same date, looked up three days in advance.

Step 1: taxi from origin in Newcastle’s suburbs to Newcastle Airport (£15)
Step 2: Jet2 flight to Salzburg (£30)
Step 3: Trolleybus to Salzburg Hbf (€2.50)
Step 4: Sparschiene on ÖBB Railjet to Vienna Airport (€35)
Step 5: British Airways flight to Heathrow (£90)
Step 6: Elizabeth line to Central London (£12.80)
For purposes of calculation 1 euro is considered equivalent to £1. In practice 1 euro is slightly less than £1.
Total cost: £185.30

Going via train:
Bus from origin in Newcastle’s suburbs to the station: £2
LNER anytime single Newcastle to London: £195.70
Total cost: £197.70

So my route via Austria was £12 cheaper than an LNER train would have been for anyone without a railcard.

Now granted I’m not the typical passenger and most people would rather just get there than faff around with a tour of Austria just to save £10 but I think this highlights the ridiculousness of LNER’s pricing.

This is truly spectacular, chapeau. Did you actually do it?

 

[DanNCL]

This is truly spectacular, chapeau. Did you actually do it?

I chose to add in a two night hotel stay in Vienna when I did it, but otherwise yes. The BA flights back were the same price both for the same day and for when I actually travelled back two days later so the price comparison still worked.

 

[75A]

I chose to add in a two night hotel stay in Vienna when I did it, but otherwise yes. The BA flights back were the same price both for the same day and for when I actually travelled back two days later so the price comparison still worked.

Brilliant.

 

[m_m]

The idea that long distance trains should be seated reservation only is ludicrous when applied to a railway system that doesn't run enough capacity to allow for that to be a reasonable solution. For sections of the journey, whether it runs with me stood in the vestibule or not makes no difference to the train.

But specifically, there are now fewer reasonably priced fares available from Nottingham via Grantham, which will drive up traffic on the already over capacity east Midland mainline. I could have got a (probably a quieter!) LNER train to London via Grantham last time I went, but the daft fares system prevented that. So I ended up on emr all the way.

This whole thing is just a sticking plaster and one that won't work for many people who rely on the railway. What needs to happen is a massive increase in capacity by introducing more trains where possible and longer trains where possible. But that costs money, so the government won't do it.

 

[MrJeeves]

I'm in the process of making a YouTube video highlighting LNER's gross ripoff fares as a result of their trial and the fake "compulsory" reservation policy. I'm going to fly from Edinburgh to London, via Amsterdam with KLM, in 3h15m - my plane ticket is cheaper than the fully flexible fare, but not cheaper than the old off peak fares.

I think the point would be especially well conveyed if you looked up the price of the LNER journey and the KLM journey for the same date booking the same amount of time in advance, and showing KLM to be cheaper.

Most definitely what @DanNCL said.

You don't want the people going "but your flight is also a fixed date/time journey!" when you start comparing it to LNER's flexible tickets (because quite frankly it is apples and pears...)



Well I say that but this 0827 departing journey on 9 May is only the flexible fare!

In fact, the easyJet flexible fare also costs less than the LNER flexible ticket, even when you add in the £5.50 bus ticket from Edinburgh Airport (but not the train to Gatwick!)

Later in the same day, you can compare the 1335 flight from Luton with the 1130 train from KGX (if we're including security times, transport to/from the airport either way, etc).

£62.50 advance, KGX (1130) to EDB (1616)



versus

£28 flight from Luton
£8 train (advance) from STP to Luton Airport with DART using EMR
£5.50 bus from Edinburgh to St Andrews Square (~30 min journey, departing every 10 mins)

Saving of just over £20 to fly, including transport to/from the Airport. If you're travelling with just a backpack (which is all this fare would include), you'd probably even get there quicker as you've got 86 mins between scheduled landing and LNER train arriving into EDB.

 

[AlterEgo]

Most definitely what @DanNCL said.

You don't want the people going "but your flight is also a fixed date/time journey!" when you start comparing it to LNER's flexible tickets.

The point is that the flight is *available* that day, unlike many of LNER's trains, which claim not to be - or will cost you £199. In any case the idea is not to say the flight via Amsterdam is cheaper all the time, or that people should copy this idea. It will require hassle and guile and some running to make the connection, with all sorts of hiccups along the way - it should be entertaining. However the real point it is to do a ridiculous stunt that nobody does in real life, and use that as the hook for some real talk about how LNER's fares have gone up. By the time the video goes live I will also have a review on Lumo to link to and talk about in the conclusion, where I spent vastly less to get a better service than LNER because I could be flexible. However:

View attachment 156638

Well I say that but this 0827 departing journey on 9 May is only the flexible fare!

In fact, the easyJet flexible fare also costs less than the LNER flexible ticket, even when you add in the £5.50 bus ticket from Edinburgh Airport (but not the train to Gatwick!)

Later in the same day, you can compare the 1335 flight from Luton with the 1130 train from KGX (if we're including security times, transport to/from the airport either way, etc).

£62.50 advance, KGX (1130) to EDB (1616)

This is perfect! Thank you. I have a couple of other examples like this already collected but this one is very good. I don't intend to go too in-depth with 100 examples - this makes for a bad video - but the main comparator is the fares before and after the trial and how it is significantly more expensive now. The really big thing is the removal of the Off Peak fare, allowing inflexible tickets to rocket in price.

View attachment 156640

versus

£28 flight from Luton
£8 train (advance) from STP to Luton Airport with DART using EMR
£5.50 bus from Edinburgh to St Andrews Square (~30 min journey, departing every 10 mins)

Saving of just over £20 to fly, including transport to/from the Airport. If you're travelling with just a backpack (which is all this fare would include), you'd probably even get there quicker as you've got 86 mins between scheduled landing and LNER train arriving into EDB.

View attachment 156639
View attachment 156641
View attachment 156642

Another good example, thanks!

 

[MrJeeves]

The point is that the flight is *available* that day, unlike many of LNER's trains, which claim not to be - or will cost you £199.

I don't think that's particularly fair... I would say that the vast majority of LNER services can even be booked on the day if you don't mind losing the cost benefits of advance booking.

These are all for today:


Every flight today (as of checking) is £90 or more, with easyJet starting from £103 and BA from £151.

Sure, not every train will have seats left on the day... but nor will every flight!

Perhaps comparing just a few days out (i.e. less than a week) would be a good comparison? An example of needing to get somewhere at short notice, but not the same day.

 

[Adam Williams]

- Instances you've seen where NO tickets were sold as "reservations were all gone" (dates/major events)

LNER London - Leeds £220 single on Social Media/Yorkshire Evening Post

Last time I caught that train in First I had a carriage to myself. That's as may be, but for Leeds supporters travelling back to Yorkshire next Wednesday, the 2333 from Kings Cross could well be like the last helicopter out of Saigon.

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Not "No tickets", just the few left eye-wateringly expensive ones in 1st class! Even though a cheap walk-up fare was valid for the service. This is what they want though - demand based (or surge) pricing.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't think that's particularly fair... I would say that the vast majority of LNER services can even be booked on the day if you don't mind losing the cost benefits of advance booking.

These are all for today:
View attachment 156643

Every flight today (as of checking) is £90 or more, with easyJet starting from £103 and BA from £151.

Sure, not every train will have seats left on the day... but nor will every flight!

You misunderstand - it is not meant to be a general comparison. I have several examples of trains being sold out or with the £199 fare only - including on days where it is much cheaper to fly via Amsterdam. It is a video about a single trip, a single verifiable example, where I take less time to go from city centre to city centre, and spend less, by flying via the Netherlands - which is intended to pique curiosity. The whole point is it isn't what sane people would do.

The serious talk comes later - a few other examples or how the fare rise is harmful more generally, ways to save money sensibly (Lumo, splitting, Haymarket, easyJet, etc), examples where it's hurt passengers, and how the practice of fake compulsory reservations isn't helpful - at odds with LNER's insistence they run a walk up railway.

"I saved money by booking from Haymarket" isn't a hook for YouTube. I do hope people will understand the forum demographic is not the audience for this video and it is intended to be for general viewing - but I do hope the message will penetrate to a different audience than is currently interested in the LNER fares trial and the detriment it can cause. The point: It can cost you £199 if you're unlucky - it never used to. You will be paying more for your advance ticket than you did before, because they took away the off peak. You may even pay more than the old off peak fare and yet be stuck with a non refundable ticket it costs money to change. And these are all bad! Here are 5 other ways to keep your sanity and save money, etc: yada yada yada.

LNER London - Leeds £220 single on Social Media/Yorkshire Evening Post

Last time I caught that train in First I had a carriage to myself. That's as may be, but for Leeds supporters travelling back to Yorkshire next Wednesday, the 2333 from Kings Cross could well be like the last helicopter out of Saigon.

www.railforums.co.uk

Not "No tickets", just the few left eye-wateringly expensive ones in 1st class! Even though a cheap walk-up fare was valid for the service. This is what they want though - demand based (or surge) pricing.

Splendid, perfect. Not even part of the trial route and the fake compulsory reservations are causing this sort of thing. Thanks for this, it's really useful.

 

[MrJeeves]

You misunderstand - it is not meant to be a general comparison. I have several examples of trains being sold out or with the £199 fare only - including on days where it is much cheaper to fly via Amsterdam. It is a video about a single trip, a single verifiable example, where I take less time to go from city centre to city centre, and spend less, by flying via the Netherlands - which is intended to pique curiosity. The whole point is it isn't what sane people would do.

Oh, I still definitely agree it'll make for good YouTube watching, even for me!

 

[Fermiboson]

Perhaps at the risk of topic creep - but currently a difficulty I have encountered in getting people to care is that most people remain unaffected by the trial, and that a easy bypass (Haymarket/Manors) exists so they can continue to remain complacent. It might be useful to give examples of how such a system of single leg pricing and lack of flexible tickets would affect the rest of the network, especially in places without convenient airport connections.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps at the risk of topic creep - but currently a difficulty I have encountered in getting people to care is that most people remain unaffected by the trial, and that a easy bypass (Haymarket/Manors) exists so they can continue to remain complacent. It might be useful to give examples of how such a system of single leg pricing and lack of flexible tickets would affect the rest of the network, especially in places without convenient airport connections.

I've considered this - I do plan on including something around this. I know people will feel naturally cynical ("you know the air fares aren't always that low!") and will show a few extortionate LON-EDI airfare examples "and that is what happens when fares aren't regulated, and are left to the market to decide - we should think about whether that's what we want on the trains". Incidentally, the KLM fare is not what we would consider to be "single leg priced", which leads to anomalies of its own - and discounts for return fares!

 

[infobleep]

Being careful not to to arouse the ire of the forum by giving away too many 'trade secrets', of course?

I quite agree. Whilst I'm not aware or savings on that route, I know of savings elsewhere that I would mention publicly.

In some cases I would tell friends and they would say that is expensive. I would then explain it is cheaper than the alternative train fare that others might by.

So the only suggestion I would make is split ticketing. It's up to you whether you'd want to reference any actual split ticketing Web sites.

Good luck with it.

 

[Kite159]

A good example might be to show a comparison of the prices charged when you search London to Edinburgh at times when the super off-peak ticket is valid with London to Haymarket prices. I.e. searching on say a Sunday afternoon for Haymarket - London Kings Cross on a split screen with searching for Edinburgh - London Kings Cross at the same time. Highly likely the fares LNER would want from Edinburgh will be higher than they can charge from Haymarket which has the price cap

 

[infobleep]

Once the video is completed, do post a link here and I will share it with some people I know, one of whome has an interest in railways more generally and quite a few Facebook friends.

One needs to get such a video viral as then the journalists might pick up on it.

 

[wilbers]

Not sure where it first appeared in this thread, but remember to mention that LNER ticket offices have been instructed not to tell customers about booking to Manors instead of Newcastle, and Haymarket instead of Edinburgh even if that would be the most suitable ticket for them.

LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

According to LNER, about 12% of sales on the trial flows are off-peak ticket types. The biggest single influencer of purchase is price. A proportion of those off-peak tickets will be on the day sales too. Flexibility is a factor and getting that formulation rights for the semi-flexible ticket...

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