Rethink urged over 'absurd' HS2-HS1 link

[Mintona]

I don't know how feasible this would be, or how expensive (I imagine very), but I would like to see a branch of HS2 divert around where it crosses the M25 in north London, it will then continue on roughly the same path as the M25 and join up with HS1 on a triangular junction in the Rainham Marshes area.

This means that some services can go direct into St. Pancras from the north, via Stratford International providing connections to the city. It would also mean high speed services from the north could go direct to Europe, bypassing central London entirely which would speed up journey times massively. In addition, it could potentially be the start of a high speed line towards Norwich and Anglia (thinking distant future here).

 

[Chris125]

This means that some services can go direct into St. Pancras from the north, via Stratford International providing connections to the city. It would also mean high speed services from the north could go direct to Europe, bypassing central London entirely which would speed up journey times massively. In addition, it could potentially be the start of a high speed line towards Norwich and Anglia (thinking distant future here).

I can't see the cost being justified - it wouldn't offer any journey time advantage for the City of London via Euston, and little if any for Canary Wharf via OOC and Crossrail especially if you take into account service frequency.

As for through services, the current single track proposal for the HS1-2 link is still likely to have more paths for through services than HS2 wiil, especially during the peaks. However, by running into OOC services from HS1 could at least terminate and provide an interchange with HS2/Crossrail/GWML/HEx services.

Chris

 

[rebmcr]

Would Crossrail's 6200mm tunnels provide enough room for Berne gauge + catenary?

If so, 1 or 2 paths an hour could probably be found for a through service on the Old Oak Common - Stratford stretch, and would have the added benefit of serving The City.

 

[Chris125]

Would Crossrail's 6200mm tunnels provide enough room for Berne gauge + catenary?

If so, 1 or 2 paths an hour could probably be found for a through service on the Old Oak Common - Stratford stretch, and would have the added benefit of serving The City.

Even if they did fit, the 260m and 400m HS2 trainsets would be too long for the 250m platform tunnels, the door layout would be incompatible with the platform edge doors at each station, the massively different performance characteristics compared to metro trains would waste multiple Crossrail paths as would the much longer dwell time at the station(s).

Perhaps most importantly, most of the time saved would be from changing to and from Crossrail at OOC - which in most cases would be lost waiting for the infrequent HS2 service instead.

Chris

 

[rebmcr]

Even if they did fit, the 260m and 400m HS2 trainsets would be too long for the 250m platform tunnels, the door layout would be incompatible with the platform edge doors at each station, the massively different performance characteristics compared to metro trains would waste multiple Crossrail paths as would the much longer dwell time at the station(s).

Perhaps most importantly, most of the time saved would be from changing to and from Crossrail at OOC - which in most cases would be lost waiting for the infrequent HS2 service instead.

Chris

Easy: don't stop at the Crossrail stations, just share the alignment, using it only as a link.

You'd still have to wait for the HS2 service whether you were changing or running through at OOC. ;¬)

 

[tbtc]

Easy: don't stop at the Crossrail stations, just share the alignment, using it only as a link

Is there space for a 400m train to sit between two Crossrail stations (waiting for a stopper ahead, but not fouling the station behind for the preceding Crossrail service)?

 

[Philip Elliott]

HS1 trains aren't significantly longer than some other trains between London and Kent.

HS2 trains are going to be four hundred metres long, so have plenty more spare capacity on board.

I'd expect there to be premium fares for "open" HS2 tickets (given the time savings it'll be a lot more attractive to some business users), but for "advance" HS2 tickets to be lower than the current lines offer (e.g. not a lot of spare seats on a five coach 222, so not huge scope for EMT to offer hundreds of bargainous tickets from Sheffield/ East Midlands to London).

The premium on SouthEastern highspeed services has nothing to do with capacity limitations and everything to do with paying for the line. It isn't just the users of the line paying for it - all other SouthEastern services have been subject to RPI + 3% for regulated tickets rather than the usual RPI + 1%.

 

[HSTEd]

The CTRL was justified entirely on the basis of eurostar services. Domestic service was an afterthought, hence the low capacity and inefficient nature of the operations. There was never going to be sufficient platform space for a high capacity service, hence the premium brand. For instance maximum train length is only 240m and only classic compatible stock is available.

 

[edwin_m]

Even if they did fit, the 260m and 400m HS2 trainsets would be too long for the 250m platform tunnels, the door layout would be incompatible with the platform edge doors at each station, the massively different performance characteristics compared to metro trains would waste multiple Crossrail paths as would the much longer dwell time at the station(s).

Perhaps most importantly, most of the time saved would be from changing to and from Crossrail at OOC - which in most cases would be lost waiting for the infrequent HS2 service instead.

Chris

Even more importantly a UIC-gauge train can't pass a standard British platform - and Crossrail central section platforms are higher than the standard.

 

[Chris125]

Easy: don't stop at the Crossrail stations, just share the alignment, using it only as a link.

You'd still have to wait for the HS2 service whether you were changing or running through at OOC. ;¬)

I don't think using the Crossrail tunnel merely to connect HS1 and HS2 makes any more sense I'm afraid.

After all there's no obvious simple or cheap way to connect Crossrail and HS1, especially in a way that allowed such services to call at Stratford International; if any paths were available they would surely be few in number and off-peak only, and perhaps the final nail in the coffin is that the conventional UK height platforms with platform edge doors wouldn't allow GC gauge vehicles even if the tunnels did.

Chris

 

[transmanche]

Hang on, Old Oak common, potential future gateway to West London, all of north west England, large chunks of the West and South Wales, and one change away from considerable quantities of the South? I think you might be underselling it.

And of what relevance is that for someone travelling from a HS2 destination to east London? (Being that the whole point was about that...)

 

[OxtedL]

My point was that for a generic business relocating (as in your post), more frequent provision of trains to Old Oak would prove more useful than (certainly) less frequent trains to Stratford because it is already on the right side of London for Large Parts of London, and Much Of The Rest of the country.

If you were thinking of a more specific business which for some reason only cares about the Docklands then my apologies for missing the subtext - in which case we're back to the whole Stratford International is not especially convenient argument - by the time you've actually made to Stratford and the Jubilee/DLR, Crossrail ought to have nearly caught up, and via lots of other places you are quite likely interested in too.

 

[yorkie]

The CTRL was justified entirely on the basis of eurostar services. Domestic service was an afterthought, hence the low capacity and inefficient nature of the operations.

What's your source for that claim?

Is this Independent article incorrect?

The best estimate of the capital cost is pounds 3bn. Of this the Government will contribute perhaps pounds 1bn, justifying it on grounds of the benefits the line will bring to Kent commuters. But that figure could yet prove wide of the mark, since it is still to be decided whether the line will end in an expensive underground terminus at Kings Cross or a more modest surface station at St Pancras.

 

[transmanche]

My point was that for a generic business relocating (as in your post), more frequent provision of trains to Old Oak would prove more useful than (certainly) less frequent trains to Stratford because it is already on the right side of London for Large Parts of London, and Much Of The Rest of the country.

If you were thinking of a more specific business which for some reason only cares about the Docklands then my apologies for missing the subtext

No 'hidden subtext'. All explained quite clearly in post #42.

 

[pablo]

I travel frequently between the N-W and Kent. The walk from Euston to St P is NOT 10 minutes platform to platform. If my train is a few minutes late into Euston, I miss the St P connection and my journey takes a half-hour longer. It gets tedious.

There is 15 minutes to get from one to t'other so if VT arrives on time I can just walk it via Phoenix Way, Brill Place and the middle concourse at St P. Using the Victoria line is slightly quicker, IF a train comes immediately. Otherwise, the wait is 5-7 minutes and it's burst a blood vessel and chances are 50:50. Not the way to go.

Through domestic sevices to Stratford or Ebbsfleet would be ideal. There's even a couple of turn-around sidings already in existence in the quarry beyond Ebbsfleet.
It seems a lack of imagination in not contemplating the regional to regional possibilities of HS1 and HS2 connected properly and future proofing to provide for them.
London is an obstruction to my journey. OK, I'm only one but I've been surprised how the Javelins have filled up over the last three years as pax' travel patterns have changed to use the new service. And, there is more pressure to put on further services. BGI!

 

[Geezertronic]

In days gone by when I had to do Euston to St Pancras I would catch the tube, mainly because I was doing the journey in winter but also because I was fed up of walking down Euston Road. Also it was because I was used to catching the tube as one of my previous destinations was Docklands (via Bank/DLR)

 

[joeykins82]

If there's genuinely a market for direct services between the North West and Kent via HS2 & HS1 then presumably there's nothing to stop an open access operator applying to run Ashford-Piccadilly services. Hell there's probably nothing to stop them applying to run via HS1 and the WCML now other than the whole pathing & capacity thing on the WCML of course

 

[JamesRowden]

What about thinking about this the other way round. Would it be worth running some additional HS1 domestic services from Kent through the HS1-HS2 link from Stratford International to Old Oak Common and then onto the GWML to become a Thames Valley service to Newbury or Basingstoke (fast from Old Oak Common to Reading). I think that it would provide the following benefits:

• HS2 - Eurostar journies could be made by changing at Old Oak Common and Stratford/Ebbsfleet/Ashford International stations
  
• Thames Valley - HS2 journies could be made by changing at Old Oak Common
  
• Thames Valley - East London journies could be made faster and simpler by having no stops in Zone 1
  
• Kent - HS2 / West London journies would be far faster and simpler with a single change at Old Oak Common required
  
• Kent - Great Western journies would be far faster and simpler with a single change at Reading
  
• Cross West/East London journies would be made far faster by splitting the Zone 1 origin/destination traffic and the non-Zone origin 1 traffic onto different trains.

The potential for changing at Old Oak Common and Stratford domestic (400m walk from Stratford International) stations for Underground and Crossrail connections should also make these services attractive for those heading to Zone 1.

The 'commuter' style interior of the trains would be well suited to every section of the service.

This service would effectively be the London Zone 1 bypass.

 

[pablo]

You could do Ashford - Rugby right now using the 10th path and shortened Pendolinos!

 

[Kali]

[whimsical]Are they compatible with the catenary, I wonder? they lack TVM, but they're as quick as Javelins, at least...[/whimsical]

 

[Geezertronic]

You could do Ashford - Rugby right now using the 10th path and shortened Pendolinos!

Depends where you are going to magic the shortened Pendolinos from to do it right now

 

[LexyBoy]

It's a mistake to consider the cost of an enhanced HS1-HS2 link as being borne only by the HS2 project. If there is expected to be a considerable number of passengers headed for East London, then having Stratford as an interchange will help relieve the strain on London's transport infrastructure, and anything that allows London to carry on for a while without another massive infrastructure project has to be good value.

It's all very well saying passengers can transfer to Crossrail at OOC or the Tube at Euston, but Euston is busy enough cope at the moment and Crossrail is expected to be pretty much at capacity from day one.

I like the idea of JamesRowden's proposal, sure it's about to be shot down however.

 

[The Ham]

I like the idea of JamesRowden's proposal, sure it's about to be shot down however.

Not by me, I also think it's a good idea.

 

[pablo]

Where were the Baby Pendolinos going to come from? Stork delivers 'em eh?

Any spare Javelins at Ashford for a trial?
Some of you are so negative about any proposition. Is it endemic in the railway industry or is it The British Disease? I prefer Can-Do.

 

[jon0844]

I bet SRB could have got the trains built and in service in a matter of days if he'd just been given the WCML franchise for life. But it didn't happen and now we're at the mercy of modern economics and logistics...

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I bet SRB could have got the trains built and in service in a matter of days .....

No doubt he also walks on water.....

 

[tbtc]

What about thinking about this the other way round. Would it be worth running some additional HS1 domestic services from Kent through the HS1-HS2 link from Stratford International to Old Oak Common and then onto the GWML to become a Thames Valley service to Newbury or Basingstoke (fast from Old Oak Common to Reading). I think that it would provide the following benefits:

• HS2 - Eurostar journies could be made by changing at Old Oak Common and Stratford/Ebbsfleet/Ashford International stations
  
• Thames Valley - HS2 journies could be made by changing at Old Oak Common
  
• Thames Valley - East London journies could be made faster and simpler by having no stops in Zone 1
  
• Kent - HS2 / West London journies would be far faster and simpler with a single change at Old Oak Common required
  
• Kent - Great Western journies would be far faster and simpler with a single change at Reading
  
• Cross West/East London journies would be made far faster by splitting the Zone 1 origin/destination traffic and the non-Zone origin 1 traffic onto different trains.

The potential for changing at Old Oak Common and Stratford domestic (400m walk from Stratford International) stations for Underground and Crossrail connections should also make these services attractive for those heading to Zone 1.

The 'commuter' style interior of the trains would be well suited to every section of the service.

This service would effectively be the London Zone 1 bypass.

Apart from the Anglia services (Basingstoke to Norwich) I can't think of anything that's run close to central London without stopping there (arguments about whether the ELL and WLL stop inside the city centre aside as these are local services). Not convinced that the demand to get from one side to the other will ever outweigh the demand to (also) serve "Zone 1".

Running high speed services non-stop from Reading/ Old Oak Common straight through to Stratford would presumably weaken a chunk of the case for Crossrail.

I like the idea of building big hubs like Stratford and OOC, I just can't see any need to link the two without serving that huge city between them.

 

[rebmcr]

Depends where you are going to magic the shortened Pendolinos from to do it right now

NoL sets, with fewer coaches? They even have TVM for the HS1 portion!

 

[Chris125]

What about thinking about this the other way round. Would it be worth running some additional HS1 domestic services from Kent through the HS1-HS2 link from Stratford International to Old Oak Common and then onto the GWML to become a Thames Valley service to Newbury or Basingstoke (fast from Old Oak Common to Reading).

The most obvious issue is the lack of a connection between HS2 and the GWML at OOC, which at the very least would not come cheap.

I'm not sure you could justify diverting existing services away from Paddington and St Pancras either, just to save a relative minority using the Circle/H&C to transfer between St Pancras and Paddington - on the other hand extra services would likely benefit the vast majority running into the present termini with their superior tube links - this is especially true given the potential reliability issues of a service needing to negotiate the single track link line, the HS2 station at OOC and the congested GWML.

There could be a case for terminating domestic and/or international services from HS1 at Old Oak Common should sufficient capacity exist, but again such services may be more useful to more people running into St Pancras.

Chris

 

[MarkyT]

The most obvious issue is the lack of a connection between HS2 and the GWML at OOC, which at the very least would not come cheap.

I'm not sure you could justify diverting existing services away from Paddington and St Pancras either, just to save a relative minority using the Circle/H&C to transfer between St Pancras and Paddington - on the other hand extra services would likely benefit the vast majority running into the present termini with their superior tube links - this is especially true given the potential reliability issues of a service needing to negotiate the single track link line, the HS2 station at OOC and the congested GWML.

There could be a case for terminating domestic and/or international services from HS1 at Old Oak Common should sufficient capacity exist, but again such services may be more useful to more people running into St Pancras.

Chris

Better to run GWML expresses via new planned OOC - Camden rail links (expanded to 4 tracks) into Euston, then provide much improved covered pedestrian links between there and St Pancras/Kings Cross. That would give all day connectivity from south wales and the west (not to mention HS2, WCML, MML and ECML stations) to the widest possible range of European destinations and all the local and regional opportunities via Thameslink and the Kent HS1 domestics. The North London superhub would become the common terminal for nearly all longer distance HS and other Intercity services operating from London, rather like the new Wien or Berlin Hauptbahnhof.

For my pedestrian link idea see: http://www.townend.me/files/kxlink.pdf

I assumed a cut and cover subway, but a raised walkway on the same route might also work (clearly perhaps with more demolition required) and may be more compatible with the Euston proposals.