Revenue Protection at Brighton

[williamn]

I passed through Brighton today and there was a big revenue protection effort going on. Oddly though they sealed off the East and West Coastway arrivals from the London platforms and didn't allow any passengers to change trains the platform side of the barriers - we all had to leave the barriers and then re-enter. With a full load of passengers coming off my train being funnelled through a few gates I very nearly missed my connection. Is this normal practice? Is there a particular problem with fare evasion from the coastway trains onto London ones? It just was a fairly terrible customer experience.

 

[dontteleport]

It seems to be a new thing, I experienced this twice last week and have never seen it before then, and Brighton is my local station. There were about 8 RPIs each time, and like you said they fenced off the interchanges. Interestingly they weren't paying attention to the main barriers, which were closed and being staffed by regular ontrak staff, my (valid) advance was rejected and checked by them, but the RPIs didn't seem to care about anything except the interchanging passengers.

My guess is to catch dodgers using the barrierless coastway stations to/from London and Preston Park. They probably figured out this was an upward trend given how much more revenue enforcement I've seen at the smaller Sussex stations of late.

 

[Ivor]

The West Coastway has for a long time been a hot spot for fare evasion, pre Covid I did several Ticketless Travel Surveys over 5-6 weeks at a time checking tickets which we conducted 6am-11am at the rear exit of Worthing which has no gates & college/schools nearby not that they were the worst offenders by any stretch as often caught many with out of date London season tickets or holding a ticket that had been taken from a bin when a colleague & myself were spotted, in the crowd coming through from the trains we could see them raiding the bin for used even previous days tickets or carrying a ticket from weeks before.

Also adults travelling on child tickets or buying off peak in peak times as at that time you could get off peak at the TVMs during peak periods.

Also prevalent at West Worthing, Durrington & Goring where then had to tell them to go to the TVM or ticket office (if open) but of course they would buy short ticket for a cheaper fare or just do a runner.

Overall on a 5 hour survey it wasn’t unusual to find 30% plus travelling illegally.

With that said as agency staff I/we had no real authority unless on occasion the REOs or Fraud team were present to trace personal details & issuing of fines.

We always had to work the London/Brighton bound travellers. Seems the blocks at Brighton of late shows things not improved greatly.

 

[ComUtoR]

Good to see that the Railway is actively targetting ticket-less travel. It is often complained about. Blocks also do more than just catch ticket-less travel. I'd like to see this becoming more and more widespread.

 

[Recessio]

East Coastway's Seaford branch has always been pretty bad for ticket less travel. If memory serves it might only be Lewes that has barriers.

 

[Ivor]

East Coastway's Seaford branch has always been pretty bad for ticket less travel. If memory serves it might only be Lewes that has barriers.

Yes I remember hearing at meetings following the TTS the East wasn't much better.

 

[Kite159]

Maybe also keeping an eye on anybody using an e-ticket from say Hove which hasn't had an entry scan at Hove (with confirmation that the barriers are in operation) for further questioning for potential short faring from a station on the West Coastway which doesn't have barriers (of which there are a few from memory)

@Recessio Yep only Lewes has barriers (and also Falmer on the main section between Brighton + Seaford). I suspect there are a far few passengers whom only pay when challenged when travelling between Newhaven & Seaford/Bishopstone, but that could be said for many branch lines with barriers only at the main stations, although it doesn't stop anybody wanting to buy a ticket from London Road to bypass the barriers at Brighton. Not sure what the cheapest ticket will be to bypass the barriers at Lewes if someone only wants to pay for part of the journey.

Doesn't help that some Southern OBS's are a bit on the lazy side in terms of not doing any revenue checks

 

[AlbertBeale]

I passed through Brighton today and there was a big revenue protection effort going on. Oddly though they sealed off the East and West Coastway arrivals from the London platforms and didn't allow any passengers to change trains the platform side of the barriers - we all had to leave the barriers and then re-enter. With a full load of passengers coming off my train being funnelled through a few gates I very nearly missed my connection. Is this normal practice? Is there a particular problem with fare evasion from the coastway trains onto London ones? It just was a fairly terrible customer experience.

Though some changes don't require leaving the platform you're on - virtually every East Coastway train uses the 7 and 8 island; but 7 is also used by some London services.

I don't know whether West Coastway trains ever routinely use platform 3 - but that would also allow access to London trains without having to go to the end of the platform.

East Coastway's Seaford branch has always been pretty bad for ticket less travel. If memory serves it might only be Lewes that has barriers.

Yes - Seaford doesn't have barriers, but Lewes does. (And I'm pretty sure the minor stations along from Seaford have no barriers either.) And coming from Seaford you can interchange at Lewes (inside the barriers) for London-Eastbourne trains, which of course serve some barrierless stations.

Interesting about the blocks at Brighton - I've never seen any in probably dozens of journeys in recent years. Mind you, although the main gates onto the concourse are usually in use, if your ticket is spat out of the gate the attendants generally let you through without bothering to look at it!

Last time I broke my London-Brighton journey at Hove (making a diversion en route), expecting my ticket to work the gate but be returned; but the gate wouldn't open. The guy had a good look and then said I was trying to use the wrong ticket (ie the Brighton-London return coupon) - though of course that should work too, but maybe he saw I'd arrived on a train from London not from Brighton. So I apologised and dug out my other (outward) ticket instead to show him so he could let me out, but without realising it gave him another return half [I'd got the pairs of tickets divided up wrongly with my travelling companion]. So he looked at that one (which was identical to the previous "wrong one"), pronounced himself satisfied, and cheerily opened the gate. Which all goes to show that gate staff checking tickets manually are not always bothered, or fully awake.... Maybe when there's a revenue check they're more careful; but I get the impression that routine manual ticket inspection is pretty cursory - though perhaps not cursory enough to fail to act as a deterrent.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

It's the silliest revenue operation I've ever encountered. Whilst ticketless travel is a concern, it treats the many fare paying passengers like s**t preventing them from making the tight connections that GTR refuse to retimetable.

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds as though there's a lack of on-train ticket checks. On Northern, I barely get on a train without getting a ticket check.

 

[Craig1122]

Sounds as though there's a lack of on-train ticket checks. On Northern, I barely get on a train without getting a ticket check.

This. Used 4 Greater Anglia trains yesterday and ticket checked 4 times. On my commute to work on SWR I've not had a ticket check on train in over a year, both ends of journey ungated and there have maybe been a couple of station checks in that time.

It's not surprising that if people hardly ever encounter a ticket check then some will decide it's not worth paying. Far better regular on board checks than putting on a block once or twice a year. It also helps justify the wages of having a second person on board and will detect short faring that barriers don't catch.

 

[Bishopstone]

Ticket checking on the Seaford branch has got more thorough over the last six months.

Non-payment, or pay when challenged, is still endemic for the short hop between Newhaven and Seaford, and needs a purge.

 

[Haywain]

It's the silliest revenue operation I've ever encountered. Whilst ticketless travel is a concern, it treats the many fare paying passengers like s**t preventing them from making the tight connections that GTR refuse to retimetable.

A connection that's below the minimum connection time?

 

[LMS 4F]

Sounds as though there's a lack of on-train ticket checks. On Northern, I barely get on a train without getting a ticket check.

Definitely not my experience of Northern. Last journey, Castleford
to Meadowhall I saw the guard as we left Cas and then not again for the next 8 stops.

 

[yorksrob]

Definitely not my experience of Northern. Last journey, Castleford
to Meadowhall I saw the guard as we left Cas and then not again for the next 8 stops.

I use that line almost every day and that's where I get checked the most !

 

[MrJeeves]

A connection that's below the minimum connection time?

Not necessarily. Southern to Southern is 4 mins at Brighton, and with East and West Coastway being at opposite ends of the station and being forced to leave the gateline and go back through if you have something like a demagnetised ticket would be a pain.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

A connection that's below the minimum connection time?

Southern to Southern is 4 mins. Hell, with the length of queues in peak time, even the 10 min connection would be dubious at best. I still fail to understand why Southern - Thameslink and Southern - GatEx is longer than Southern to Southern which is, as mentioned above, at polar ends of the station.

Either why, this is a pedant point as it is well established that commuters in the South East who are used to historically possible connections will not be paying much heed to arbitary minimum connection times when carrying out the same journey they've been able to do for years. It'll affect compensation rights, but there's no reason why the connection should be made impossible for no benefit.

 

[OscarH]

Good to see that the Railway is actively targetting ticket-less travel. It is often complained about. Blocks also do more than just catch ticket-less travel. I'd like to see this becoming more and more widespread.

It is very nice to see revenue protection happening on GTR, hope to see more of it, but it shouldn't be at the the expense of people (legal) connections

I did several Ticketless Travel Surveys over 5-6 weeks at a time checking tickets which we conducted 6am-11am at the rear exit of Worthing which has no gates

Used to see revenue blocks happening pretty often there when I was commuting to Worthing and using that exit in 2018/19. Despite the frequency they always seemed fruitful!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Ticket checking on the Seaford branch has got more thorough over the last six months.

Non-payment, or pay when challenged, is still endemic for the short hop between Newhaven and Seaford, and needs a purge.

My one time on the Seaford-Lewes service this year included a ticket check, even though it was lateish on as Sunday evening.

 

[paul1609]

Southern to Southern is 4 mins. Hell, with the length of queues in peak time, even the 10 min connection would be dubious at best. I still fail to understand why Southern - Thameslink and Southern - GatEx is longer than Southern to Southern which is, as mentioned above, at polar ends of the station.

Either why, this is a pedant point as it is well established that commuters in the South East who are used to historically possible connections will not be paying much heed to arbitary minimum connection times when carrying out the same journey they've been able to do for years. It'll affect compensation rights, but there's no reason why the connection should be made impossible for no benefit.

My return from Portsmouth home matches to Appledore (Kent) had this 4 min connection at a time that Brighton station is very busy on a saturday night this last season. Much to my surprise I only missed the connection at Brighton once and that was due to issues on the mainline meaning that Brighton to West Coastway services were running via Littlehampton and London to Brighton via Lewes. Even then by an extra change at Lewes and changing at Hampden Park vice eastbourne I still managed an on time arrival at Appledore. When the reveue seperation was on at Brighton last week they moved the barrier when there was a tight coastway connection to allow people to bypass the barriers so it does seem quite intelligent.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Good to see that the Railway is actively targetting ticket-less travel. It is often complained about. Blocks also do more than just catch ticket-less travel. I'd like to see this becoming more and more widespread.

I certainly don’t. Apart from the hassle it causes, I trust RPI’s less and less to not create problems simply because they can or their information is incorrect.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I certainly don’t. Apart from the hassle it causes, I trust RPI’s less and less to not create problems simply because they can or their information is incorrect.

Yeah for the most part RPIs' presence is entirely dogmatic and they cause far more problems than they solve to the operational railway

 

[williamn]

My return from Portsmouth home matches to Appledore (Kent) had this 4 min connection at a time that Brighton station is very busy on a saturday night this last season. Much to my surprise I only missed the connection at Brighton once and that was due to issues on the mainline meaning that Brighton to West Coastway services were running via Littlehampton and London to Brighton via Lewes. Even then by an extra change at Lewes and changing at Hampden Park vice eastbourne I still managed an on time arrival at Appledore. When the reveue seperation was on at Brighton last week they moved the barrier when there was a tight coastway connection to allow people to bypass the barriers so it does seem quite intelligent.

Good to hear, unfortunately they didn't for my 5 minute connection, even when I asked!

 

[paul1609]

Good to hear, unfortunately they didn't for my 5 minute connection, even when I asked!

If i dont make my 4 min connection at Brighton on a trans coastway journey it in theory means that I miss my next connection at Eastbourne, as the service beyond Ore is only hourly it means I qualify for 100% delay repay!

 

[Dr Hoo]

I can see ‘Southern’/DfT raising the Southern connection time from 4 minutes soon.

 

[Edsmith]

Yeah for the most part RPIs' presence is entirely dogmatic and they cause far more problems than they solve to the operational railway

That's generally been my experience too.

 

[paul1609]

I can see ‘Southern’/DfT raising the Southern connection time from 4 minutes soon.

It only matters if you actually timetable trains with that 4 min connection with the new west coastway timetable in June Im not sure thats the case.
Of course what we really need is a low level Brighton Coastway station deconflicting the service with mainline services and allowing a through Southampton to Hastings service.

 

[signed]

Yeah for the most part RPIs' presence is entirely dogmatic and they cause far more problems than they solve to the operational railway

That would only stop when, in an ideal world, NR or someone makes an authoritative database of routing and fare rules, every ticket is either QR/Aztec code or contact less and RPIs can scan the tickets to see in 10s whether it's valid or not without implementing bogus rules and al.

Faster and easier for everyone, segmentation of the railway sadly makes it unrealistic for the UK (whereas in Europe you have that in most countries, scan a QR Code and have all the tickets' info on the guard's handheld. In Italy you can even send your ticket in advance through the app to the guard's handheld so that they don't have to disturb you to ask you for the ticket)

 

[godfreycomplex]

That would only stop when, in an ideal world, NR or someone makes an authoritative database of routing and fare rules, every ticket is either QR/Aztec code or contact less and RPIs can scan the tickets to see in 10s whether it's valid or not without implementing bogus rules and al.

Faster and easier for everyone, segmentation of the railway sadly makes it unrealistic for the UK (whereas in Europe you have that in most countries, scan a QR Code and have all the tickets' info on the guard's handheld. In Italy you can even send your ticket in advance through the app to the guard's handheld so that they don't have to disturb you to ask you for the ticket)

Or just scrap the lot of the fare structure and start again (which is very speculative, and what you suggest would also work as a first step)

 

[signed]

Or just scrap the lot of the fare structure and start again

To be fair, that idea sounds way easier than creating a database from the current routing guide, but let's stay on-topic yes