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Revised EMR Regional Timetables - From 19th June

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STINT47

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I'm just going to avoid doing this too often until the direct service to Nottingham is reinstated. But I'm not holding my breath that this will actually happen...

EMR have advised stakeholders that the amended timetable will last to December but who knows which year.....

I was also on the 17:45 and connected into the 17;59 service to Nottinghsm I agree that it was not made clear that the 156 was for Crewe and would have potentially got on as well if I had not seen that the 17:59 was a XC service. Incidentally the 17:59 was lighlyly loaded so I wonder if you were not the only one caught out?
 
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Jozhua

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EMR have advised stakeholders that the amended timetable will last to December but who knows which year.....

I was also on the 17:45 and connected into the 17;59 service to Nottinghsm I agree that it was not made clear that the 156 was for Crewe and would have potentially got on as well if I had not seen that the 17:59 was a XC service. Incidentally the 17:59 was lighlyly loaded so I wonder if you were not the only one caught out?
Likely not - I'm pretty competent with trains as well, so for me to get caught out like that is a rarity!

Glad to hear I'm not the only one confused by the situation.

I was a bit miffed to see the Crewe service has been extended to Newark, instead of you know...prioritising the reintroduction of the service that already existed. Concerned that we will never see the Matlock service run through to Nottingham again, which will make my life much more of a pain. My friends are preferring to get lifts or avoid traveling to Nottingham because they find transfers stressful, I'm mostly just finding the whole ordeal annoying and time consuming. All seems timed to make sure you spend as long as possible waiting in Derby station, usually with the empty 170 locked out so you can't get a seat until 30 seconds prior to departure...
 

Killingworth

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Question is whether the timetables for December will see any improvements. As they are currently unable to reliably run all or full length trains on all the reduced regional timetable it would seem an optimistic hope.

Which brings us to the core of the issue. Where and when is the extra stock coming from to allow restoration? And when it arrives is there going to be a longer term plan to provide a more modern fleet for the future?

EMR's mixed bag of aging cast offs is in stark contrast to the modern rolling stock operated by other TOCs they run alongside in Norwich, Ely, Peterborough, Grantham, Manchester and Liverpool.
 

Baxenden Bank

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As if by magic the shopkeeper appeared (reference to TV programme Mr Benn).

Another surprising appearance are two scheduled bus services between Derby and Stoke-on-Trent. Departures ex Derby correspond to temporarily cancelled trains at 1645 and 1845. They commenced operation Monday of this week and are scheduled to operate until the December timetable change (source data Real Time Trains). They take longer than the rail services they replace, but better than nothing for travellers ex Derby. Nothing in the opposite direction but the peak hour arrivals into Derby operate as per the base timetable.

There doesn't appear to be any publicity about them on the EMR website but they do appear in a revised pdf here EMR timetables
 

DDB

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Throughout the timetable collapse the lack of communication and publicity of the changing timetables has been appalling. I complained repeatedly via the Facebook page and would be told it is on the website but it wasn't and when I asked for them to provide a direct link to the information they wouldn't reply.

The only thing they are really keen to publicise was changes due to RMT strikes. They couldn't mention that enough. Spondon which has nearly all it services removed had for a long time had nothing about the changes but they had put up a poster about the Sunday strikes despite the fact Spondon doesn't have a Sunday service so it makes no difference!
 

Baxenden Bank

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Throughout the timetable collapse the lack of communication and publicity of the changing timetables has been appalling. I complained repeatedly via the Facebook page and would be told it is on the website but it wasn't and when I asked for them to provide a direct link to the information they wouldn't reply.

The only thing they are really keen to publicise was changes due to RMT strikes. They couldn't mention that enough. Spondon which has nearly all it services removed had for a long time had nothing about the changes but they had put up a poster about the Sunday strikes despite the fact Spondon doesn't have a Sunday service so it makes no difference!
I would agree with that. There wasn't and still isn't a reasonable explanation about why the timetables were cut in June, just reference to 'not performed as expected', 'we are working to understand the detailed reasons' etc.

Followers of this forum have some additional information but the general public are none the wiser. I'm still not certain if it is;
  • pathing issues in the recast timetable causing unreliability,
  • rolling stock shortages due to late cascades,
  • rolling stock shortages due to allocating units to strengthen other services,
  • driver and guard shortages due to lack of recruitment / training of new staff to replace leavers,
  • driver and guard shortages due to lack of training on new units by existing staff,
  • driver and guard shortages due to Covid absences,
  • or a neat excuse to make financial savings.
Perhaps if EMR were to issue an update on how that dedicated team is doing on understanding the detailed reasons and how swiftly they expect to re-instate some, or all, of the missing services.

Extract from EMR notice, available in full here.
Following the introduction of the May 2021 timetable it has become apparent that our new timetable has not performed as expected resulting in short notice cancellations. We are sorry that we have not performed as we, or our customers, expect.

Everyone at EMR is immensely disappointed but we have introduced a dedicated team to fix these issues and reinstate these services as swiftly as possible. We are working to understand the detailed reasons behind those areas which are not working well.
 

43055

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As if by magic the shopkeeper appeared (reference to TV programme Mr Benn).

Another surprising appearance are two scheduled bus services between Derby and Stoke-on-Trent. Departures ex Derby correspond to temporarily cancelled trains at 1645 and 1845. They commenced operation Monday of this week and are scheduled to operate until the December timetable change (source data Real Time Trains). They take longer than the rail services they replace, but better than nothing for travellers ex Derby. Nothing in the opposite direction but the peak hour arrivals into Derby operate as per the base timetable.

There doesn't appear to be any publicity about them on the EMR website but they do appear in a revised pdf here EMR timetables
The 1645 will be very useful for the college students. I only noticed it today as the 1742 from Uttoxeter to Stoke was advertised on both platforms when I was passing though on one of the services that still exist.

I would agree with that. There wasn't and still isn't a reasonable explanation about why the timetables were cut in June, just reference to 'not performed as expected', 'we are working to understand the detailed reasons' etc.

Followers of this forum have some additional information but the general public are none the wiser. I'm still not certain if it is;
  • pathing issues in the recast timetable causing unreliability,
  • rolling stock shortages due to late cascades,
  • rolling stock shortages due to allocating units to strengthen other services,
  • driver and guard shortages due to lack of recruitment / training of new staff to replace leavers,
  • driver and guard shortages due to lack of training on new units by existing staff,
  • driver and guard shortages due to Covid absences,
  • or a neat excuse to make financial savings.
Perhaps if EMR were to issue an update on how that dedicated team is doing on understanding the detailed reasons and how swiftly they expect to re-instate some, or all, of the missing services.

Extract from EMR notice, available in full here.
It seems to be a number of things but I don't think pathing is an issue (except using 15x's on 170's timed paths) or amount of rolling stock. When the current timetable was introduced a number of 156's went into store and now some of them are being prepped for there future use at northern.
 

ChrisC

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The reduced EMR timetables are a big inconvenience but if you could be certain there wouldn’t be any cancellations, they can be worked around and just about tolerated. The short formed trains, especially between Nottingham and Liverpool, and on the Robin Hood Line on a Saturday afternoon can make travelling very unpleasant or impossible if the train is too full to board and you get left behind. After a year of using my car and not travelling by train I have tried these past few months to get back on the trains. After just a few journeys I have had enough and as the winter weather approaches for many journeys it will be back to my car or even the bus for more local travel. Unfortunately we have at least 3 more months of this and I have heard a few rumours that many of the cuts may not even be restored in December.

It’s the terrible lack of connections that have made me come to this decision. Travelling to and from Mansfield I have had enough of sitting for almost an hour on Nottingham, Worksop or Sheffield stations waiting for connections because with the reduced timetables very little seems to connect. Today I travelled back from Manchester to Mansfield and there are currently only 2 morning departures from Manchester to Nottingham at 0842 and 1042. They both arrive in Nottingham just as the Mansfield train is departing meaning an hour to wait. Instead I caught a TPE train from Manchester, but that arrived in Sheffield just after Leeds to Nottingham train had departed and there was a also s 45 minute wait for a train to Mansfield via Worksop. This is a problem trying to travel anywhere as the hourly train from Mansfield to Nottingham arrives in Nottingham just as trains to so many important destinations have just departed. Regular late running also means that the connection into the fast train to London is usually missed. It’s inconvenient enough sitting around in sunny weather but will be even worse during the winter months.

I’ve just concentrated upon connections to and from Mansfield but the reduced timetables are causing passengers long waits for connections throughout the East Midlands.

Whilst travelling today on a late running 170 with very tatty worn seats I noticed that on all the stations between Mansfield and Worksop there were big posters showing an EMR Class 170. The words on these posters said ‘Modern trains, better journeys. We’re rolling out new trains on your route’. Yes, the very trains that used to run on the route 20 years ago in Central Trains days. Time keeping on the line has never been so poor with almost every train, every day, late. It’s easy to blame the single line section but things were not this bad even pre Covid with double the current frequency. Even on off peak lightly loaded trains they are regularly losing 5 or 6 minutes during the journey and that’s without waiting for trains to clear the single line sections. If this doesn’t improve trying to restore the timetable that has been successfully operated on the line for over 20 years will be a disaster. Try to explain to the public why they can no longer run the well established successful timetable.
 

Jozhua

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The reduced EMR timetables are a big inconvenience but if you could be certain there wouldn’t be any cancellations, they can be worked around and just about tolerated. The short formed trains, especially between Nottingham and Liverpool, and on the Robin Hood Line on a Saturday afternoon can make travelling very unpleasant or impossible if the train is too full to board and you get left behind. After a year of using my car and not travelling by train I have tried these past few months to get back on the trains. After just a few journeys I have had enough and as the winter weather approaches for many journeys it will be back to my car or even the bus for more local travel. Unfortunately we have at least 3 more months of this and I have heard a few rumours that many of the cuts may not even be restored in December.

It’s the terrible lack of connections that have made me come to this decision. Travelling to and from Mansfield I have had enough of sitting for almost an hour on Nottingham, Worksop or Sheffield stations waiting for connections because with the reduced timetables very little seems to connect. Today I travelled back from Manchester to Mansfield and there are currently only 2 morning departures from Manchester to Nottingham at 0842 and 1042. They both arrive in Nottingham just as the Mansfield train is departing meaning an hour to wait. Instead I caught a TPE train from Manchester, but that arrived in Sheffield just after Leeds to Nottingham train had departed and there was a also s 45 minute wait for a train to Mansfield via Worksop. This is a problem trying to travel anywhere as the hourly train from Mansfield to Nottingham arrives in Nottingham just as trains to so many important destinations have just departed. Regular late running also means that the connection into the fast train to London is usually missed. It’s inconvenient enough sitting around in sunny weather but will be even worse during the winter months.

I’ve just concentrated upon connections to and from Mansfield but the reduced timetables are causing passengers long waits for connections throughout the East Midlands.

Whilst travelling today on a late running 170 with very tatty worn seats I noticed that on all the stations between Mansfield and Worksop there were big posters showing an EMR Class 170. The words on these posters said ‘Modern trains, better journeys. We’re rolling out new trains on your route’. Yes, the very trains that used to run on the route 20 years ago in Central Trains days. Time keeping on the line has never been so poor with almost every train, every day, late. It’s easy to blame the single line section but things were not this bad even pre Covid with double the current frequency. Even on off peak lightly loaded trains they are regularly losing 5 or 6 minutes during the journey and that’s without waiting for trains to clear the single line sections. If this doesn’t improve trying to restore the timetable that has been successfully operated on the line for over 20 years will be a disaster. Try to explain to the public why they can no longer run the well established successful timetable.
It's hard to drive any modal shift when the rail system is too overcapacity to do so.

Even Mr Beeching would have done a better job of funding the railways than the successive governments over the last 20 years. Even with shrinking passenger numbers, they were looking at improving service and speeding up journeys.

Now, despite passenger numbers at record levels - investment in the industry is incredibly underwhelming. It's frustrating because people are both relying on, and seeing the value in switching to, public transport, yet the lack of investment in it means we are perpetually dealing with overcrowding.

I'm not going to say EMR is completely not at fault, but cancelling swathes of electrification schemes has really knackered up the rolling stock situation for the whole country, especially if diesels are supposedly no longer to have a full operational life if procured today...

Edit:
I moved up to the northern region during the worst part of their meltdown, so I've seen this sort of stuff happen before. Northern has recovered a decent amount these days and a slightly reduced but consistent timetable seems to be working well around Manchester...at least until passenger demand REALLY picks up again...

For EMR, I think they need to admit the 170s were a bad idea and unsuitable for local routes. However, I think things could be recovered by using 170s for Liverpool/Norwich duties and then 158s for local routes. This way we are playing a little more to strengths. 158s are express units too, but generally perform similar (if not better) to 156s on local routes.

170s would benefit Liverpool/Norwich passengers from having a little better circulation (useful for navigating the Chaos at Manchester Castlefield) and will be a bit more reliable on that long distance stuff, which will be useful when operating so far from base.
 
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edwin_m

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It's hard to drive any modal shift when the rail system is too overcapacity to do so.

Even Mr Beeching would have done a better job of funding the railways than the successive governments over the last 20 years. Even with shrinking passenger numbers, they were looking at improving service and speeding up journeys.

Now, despite passenger numbers at record levels - investment in the industry is incredibly underwhelming. It's frustrating because people are both relying on, and seeing the value in switching to, public transport, yet the lack of investment in it means we are perpetually dealing with overcrowding.

I'm not going to say EMR is completely not at fault, but cancelling swathes of electrification schemes has really knackered up the rolling stock situation for the whole country, especially if diesels are supposedly no longer to have a full operational life if procured today...

Edit:
I moved up to the northern region during the worst part of their meltdown, so I've seen this sort of stuff happen before. Northern has recovered a decent amount these days and a slightly reduced but consistent timetable seems to be working well around Manchester...at least until passenger demand REALLY picks up again...

For EMR, I think they need to admit the 170s were a bad idea and unsuitable for local routes. However, I think things could be recovered by using 170s for Liverpool/Norwich duties and then 158s for local routes. This way we are playing a little more to strengths. 158s are express units too, but generally perform similar (if not better) to 156s on local routes.

170s would benefit Liverpool/Norwich passengers from having a little better circulation (useful for navigating the Chaos at Manchester Castlefield) and will be a bit more reliable on that long distance stuff, which will be useful when operating so far from base.
The problem with the 158s is the slow door times and constricted access inwards from the doors, which makes typical dwell times longer than for a 156. They're only really useful on stopping trains on routes that are lightly used - maybe Lincolnshire? They are also suitable for Nottingham-Norwich.

The problem with the 170s is the lack of end gangways. Perhaps some could be re-formed to 4-car for Liverpool-Nottingham but I doubt there are enough centre cars available to do that.
 

LowLevel

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The problem with the 158s is the slow door times and constricted access inwards from the doors, which makes typical dwell times longer than for a 156. They're only really useful on stopping trains on routes that are lightly used - maybe Lincolnshire? They are also suitable for Nottingham-Norwich.

The problem with the 170s is the lack of end gangways. Perhaps some could be re-formed to 4-car for Liverpool-Nottingham but I doubt there are enough centre cars available to do that.
158s have no real difference in dwell times versus a 156 and are much better on the Robin Hood line hills than either a 156 or 170, provided it isn't a sickly example. A decent 158 will comfortably keep to the schedule. The main problem you get is limited capacity for bikes, for many years the morning peak additionals on the RHL were booked for class 158 interworking with Norwich services

Much of the issue with the RHL is with the timetable recast. For 25 years it has been done in a certain way because it works. EMR have tried to change the schedule and it hasn't worked. The padding is now in the wrong places. Once you lose time it snowballs.
 

ChrisC

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158s have no real difference in dwell times versus a 156 and are much better on the Robin Hood line hills than either a 156 or 170, provided it isn't a sickly example. A decent 158 will comfortably keep to the schedule. The main problem you get is limited capacity for bikes, for many years the morning peak additionals on the RHL were booked for class 158 interworking with Norwich services

Much of the issue with the RHL is with the timetable recast. For 25 years it has been done in a certain way because it works. EMR have tried to change the schedule and it hasn't worked. The padding is now in the wrong places. Once you lose time it snowballs.
Thanks @LowLevel for that. It really has been puzzling me as to why the time keeping on the RHL has been so appalling during these last few months especially when running to a reduced timetable. I’ve been using the line since it reopened and despite the constraints of the single line sections have found the trains to be mostly on time. As you say for 25 years the timetable has worked successfully with 2tph. I hope EMR are not going to use the current problems as an excuse for not reinstating the former more regular timetable. It was mainly the currently withdrawn Mansfield Woodhouse train that I used as that was so good for onward connections at Nottingham. The hourly train from Worksop misses so many important connections meaning an hour to wait.
 

WesternLancer

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I don't want to see rose tinted about it but I just think stagecoach would have done a better job of the whole situation. Would have been interesting to know what would have been in their franchise bid had it gone forwards before the pension element kyboshed it.

This isn't cos I think stagecoach is some great business, just based on my experience of EMT when they ran it.
 

Jozhua

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I don't want to see rose tinted about it but I just think stagecoach would have done a better job of the whole situation. Would have been interesting to know what would have been in their franchise bid had it gone forwards before the pension element kyboshed it.

This isn't cos I think stagecoach is some great business, just based on my experience of EMT when they ran it.
Stagecoach seemed to get the basics *mostly* right and usually made alterations quite conservatively.

Liverpool - Norwich has always been a disaster, because there is no suitable rolling stock for it, demand varies wildly along the route, and it passes through a number of the country's worst rail pinch points. (Manchester Castlefield and Sheffield)

The problem is, EMR had some issues with introducing the new rolling stock, so scrambled to make sweeping timetable alterations. Anyone who is familiar with the business knows timetable changes can be disruptive at the best of times, nevermind making it in response to something going wrong. The only way to realistically do a timetable reduction in response to disruption would be to run something like a Sunday service, but every day of the week. You already have experience in providing that service pattern, so usually the issues have been weeded out already. Rail replacement buses/cross ticket acceptance can be used to help supplement things on weekdays during this time.

I do love to see change, but the 170s were a somewhat half baked plan. I will admit I was excited to see them come back to the region, but I think a lot of people on here rightly had concerns that they are not cut out for the job. They really need an entire rebuild to handle the service patterns they are being run on.
 

Bald Rick

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The only way to realistically do a timetable reduction in response to disruption would be to run something like a Sunday service, but every day of the week. You already have experience in providing that service pattern, so usually the issues have been weeded out already.

But one TOC doing a SuO service with others doing a variation of a weekday service is a recipe for disaster.

Also, SuO services have the annoying features of starting pretty late in the day, relying on trains being in the right place at the start from the close of the Saturday service, and then having all the trains at the end of the day in the right place for Monday start up.
 

DDB

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The problem is (for my route) that cut back without thinking.
The May timetable added a second slow Nottingham to Derby service per hour and rearranged where they went to afterwards. When they cut back again to one service they cut the stopper.
They should have either cut the other service instead or if that wasn't possible transferred the stops to the remaining service.

When they first did this they claimed they had to sort out training and things would be kept under review. However it has been several months now so more people should have come out of the training pipeline by now, especially those just needing training on the new traction so would should have seen a few services reinstated by now. Yet nothing appears to have happened.
 

Sleepy

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Another meltdown day tommorow ? Loads of pre-cancellations on regional due to lack of staff....
 
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STINT47

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Tommorow looks like being a disaster with lots of cancellations already listed. Far from getting better as staff are trained things seem to be as bad as ever.

It would be nice to know why things are not improving what is being done and when this shambles may be resolved. Sadly I doubt any information will be forthcoming as no one in the DFT or in power seems that intrested.
 

Skymonster

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Last three Skegness - Nottingham services cancelled this evening with passengers on the last one subjected to a three hour bus ride instead of an hour and three quarters on a train.
 

Watershed

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Is there any information on what services are cancelled tomorrow and where I can find it?
EMR don't have a JourneyCheck site but you can see it on their website, on the service status bar (which currently says "Problems reported"). This splits the alterations/cancellations down by line.
 

43055

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Meanwhile EMR have managed to find staff for two specials between Stoke and Derby for football fans:

1304 Stoke to Derby
1711 Derby to Stoke
 

Llandudno

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Meanwhile EMR have managed to find staff for two specials between Stoke and Derby for football fans:

1304 Stoke to Derby
1711 Derby to Stoke
To catch the 1711 from Derby, you would have to leave the match before the final whistle!
 

Baxenden Bank

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To catch the 1711 from Derby, you would have to leave the match before the final whistle!
Always an advantage when watching Stoke play, so I understand. Better still to leave before the kick-off.

EMR performance today will be better than a few weeks ago (21 August), when Stoke were at home to Nottingham Town/City/County/United. Due to the sort of two-hourly service, and two successive cancellations, there was a five hour gap in service between 1632 then 2146 towards Derby. Passengers advised to travel via Tamworth. EMR website had no reference to any alternative provision but National Rail Enquiries suggested that a bus had been dragged up from somewhere to replace one of the services each way - meaning only a 3 hour gap!
 

LowLevel

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The footex services used an Intercity train (222), Derby mixed traction driver and probably had a manager or a route conducted train manager on as guard.

Shortages are mainly on the Regional side so that was a decent move to get around it. Lots more cancellations tomorrow with driver and contingency guard non-availability, unfortunately.
 

Skymonster

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Planning to head up to Mansfield from Derby today and ideally would have used the train as I am expecting to have a drink or two… Not even a single train from Derby to Nottingham before 11:26 (neither EMR nor AXC) - although I accept it’s Sunday, two major cities in the East Midlands just not linked by rail until almost lunchtime! Meanwhile the Red Arrow bus is every 20 minutes (35 minute journey time) between Derby and Nottingham all day.

And to make matters worse, EMR seems to have thrown in the towel on the Robin Hood Line after 16:00 this afternoon - how can it get away with describing that as “Good service with minor changes“ on its website?

I thought the railway was trying to encourage people back? No wonder people choose to drive or use other forms of transport.
 

DDB

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The footex services used an Intercity train (222), Derby mixed traction driver and probably had a manager or a route conducted train manager on as guard.

Shortages are mainly on the Regional side so that was a decent move to get around it. Lots more cancellations tomorrow with driver and contingency guard non-availability, unfortunately.
Is there any sign of it getting any better? The cancellations were announced as being to allow training and that there would be regular reviews. Is there any sign of changes and/or the training backlog being addressed?
 

Kite159

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Planning to head up to Mansfield from Derby today and ideally would have used the train as I am expecting to have a drink or two… Not even a single train from Derby to Nottingham before 11:26 (neither EMR nor AXC) - although I accept it’s Sunday, two major cities in the East Midlands just not linked by rail until almost lunchtime! Meanwhile the Red Arrow bus is every 20 minutes (35 minute journey time) between Derby and Nottingham all day.

And to make matters worse, EMR seems to have thrown in the towel on the Robin Hood Line after 16:00 this afternoon - how can it get away with describing that as “Good service with minor changes“ on its website?

I thought the railway was trying to encourage people back? No wonder people choose to drive or use other forms of transport.

I suspect the bus company is loving the rail industry at the moment, especially as I assume the bus goes from city centre to city centre meaning the extra time penalty of using the bus is regained by having better locations.
 

louis97

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It really has been puzzling me as to why the time keeping on the RHL has been so appalling during these last few months especially when running to a reduced timetable.
It's actually quite simple, when the running times were changed to 170 back in May it resulted in a small reduction in running time. Unfortunately this reduction isn't achievable, so therefore trains end up late. The structure of the timetable means that delays, even with the reduced timetable, can snowball. Trains pass just south of Bulwell South Junction and because of the additional stop in each direction (normally on the Mansfield train) the turnaround at Worksop is short. Therefore once a train ends up late going out it will come back late and delay a train going towards Worksop a couple hours later. Of course because of the unachievable running times now, a late train will loose further time. The reduction for an all stopping train is 4 minutes (2.5 out and 1.5 back) per return trip to Worksop, the reduction is all South of Mansfield and over 50% is on the single line section.
 
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