Rioting students

[Geezertronic]

While I don't agree with much of what you say (on any subject), I at least have the courtesy not to call you an idiot.

I don't really care what you agree or disagree with me on but if you make statements such as "rioting is exhilerating", what do you expect?

I've had the misfortune to be caught up in a couple of football outbreaks in the past and I can tell you there was nothing exhilerating about it and I even went as far as to not attend certain games when I was a regular attender.

 

[Pumbaa]

How did all these students afford to get to London in the first place?

Most local student unions who endorsed the protests laid on coaches again to get to London.

 

[Pumbaa]

I don't really care what you agree or disagree with me on but if you make statements such as "rioting is exhilerating", what do you expect?

Well I can empathise with that - if you passionately believe in something and want your voice to be heard, it is very easy to be swept up. I was marching in Liverpool on all three occasions as I was unable to get to London, and the fact that you are united for a common cause does make the whole celebration more unified and commmunal to the extent that you would feel protective of fellow professors. Certainly in L'pool when the police attempted to split the march down two separate roads, there was an almighty uproar and surging of the crowd, someone was later arrested.

Rioting is liberating and exhilarating surely - you are actively sticking two fingers up at establishment.

Remember rioting can lead to a better social standing - clause 28 for example.

 

[4SRKT]

I don't really care what you agree or disagree with me on but if you make statements such as "rioting is exhilerating", what do you expect?

I've had the misfortune to be caught up in a couple of football outbreaks in the past and I can tell you there was nothing exhilerating about it and I even went as far as to not attend certain games when I was a regular attender.

I have also said that I would run a mile if caught in one myself. Saying that rioting is exhilerating, which it clearly is for a lot of people, is not the same as condoning rioting. Go and look up the word 'catharsis' in a dictionary.
:roll:

 

[Pumbaa]

But that brings up another question! How much of what is going on is being manipulated by the media? Research on the 1984-1985 Miners Strike by Glasgow University Media Group (GUMG) revealed how distorted the TV coverage was against the strikers. How much of the same sort of thing is going on here? We don't know unless we are there, but it may well be the case that solid arguments are being put forward, but not reported, as it is better for the journalists to focus on the admittedly far more newsworthy acts of violence and vandalism.

Lets compare the various media outlets over the last 24 hours:

- Sky news during live coverage yesterday focussed only on 'brutality agains police' at the edge of a peaceful protest.
- BBC were remarkably balanced throughout the day although coming down on the side of Police more often than not.
- The Times unremarkably, The Mail, Telegraph etc condemned the entire movement with one in the Telegraph telling students it's past their bedtime, abstaining the Police of any responsibility and proclaiming the vote a step forward in the Govts plan.
- The Mirror and Sun supported the protests while admonishing the violent end, which for the Sun I was genuinely surprised with.
- The Guardian and Independent went with police brutality and followed the fallout, fully supporting the protests while condemning the violent end, acknowledging that the Police response was probably the direct cause of this (other than the neo-Nazi and deliberately out to cause a rumpus groups).

 

[Aussie_Rail]

I saw on the TV what happened in London, news is a little slow getting out here, but from what I have seen, I think its all pretty disgusting. People have a right to protest and show that they are not happy, but they do not have a right to destroy things and cause trouble.

I also saw what happened to Prince Charles and their Rolls Royce, why weren't these thugs shot? I'm sure if the same thing happened to Obama there would be a lot of dead thugs piled up on the road side.

Overall, these ungrateful gits should be grateful they can even go to uni in the first place. Whinging about it now really has helped their cause, not. After what they did, the destruction, the total lack of respect for society and their country, its a wonder these people are officially the lowest of the low.

People now, probably rate drug deals higher than uni students. I have not seen footage of drug dealers attacking the Royals, the Police like that and destroying their city.

They should increase the fees even more, to cover the cost of all the damage they caused.

Personally, if I was running things, Police would not have been using batons and shields, I would have issued them with shotguns, .44 Magnums and flamethrowers. That'll fix them.

 

[imagination]

Personally, if I was running things, Police would not have been using batons and shields, I would have issued them with shotguns, .44 Magnums and flamethrowers. That'll fix them.

May the world be thankful that it does not have to put up with your Mugabe-style despotic rule then.

 

[Aussie_Rail]

May the world be thankful that it does not have to put up with your Mugabe-style despotic rule then.

I'm sure the antics that are happening on your streets are a rare sight on the streets of Pyongyang or in China and other countries where law and order can be maintained, even in Australia, rarely does anything like that ever happen here.

Sure, when we host things like G20 or APEC, but never over Government changes etc. And never do rioters ever target our Shrine of Rememberance, sure no one could be that disrespectful?

I think, they really don't know when they are so well off. They have an opportunity to get a piece of paper and make something of themselves, what ever the cost, surely that would be money well spent? But for ungrateful little tow-rags to go round the streets destroying things, being so disrespectful hoping to get their way, they act like 2 year olds having a hissey fit.

If they are looking for sympathy and someone to side with them, I'd hate to be the person putting their hand up, who could honstly say they support all that we have seen on TV? Attacking their future King, real smart idea.

Sometimes, you can really see where Pol Pot was coming from.

 

[Geezertronic]

I have also said that I would run a mile if caught in one myself. Saying that rioting is exhilerating, which it clearly is for a lot of people, is not the same as condoning rioting. Go and look up the word 'catharsis' in a dictionary.
:roll:

Maybe people should get their catharsis fix in some other way then rather than resorting to wrecking the place when they don't get their own way. Such as driving a fast car around a race track, or shooting some paintballs, pounding the gym, or even playing GTA IV and wrecking that virtual world rather than the real one.

A catharsis is an emotional release. According to psychoanalytic theory, this emotional release is linked to a need to release unconscious conflicts. For example, experiencing stress over a work-related situation may cause feelings of frustration and tension. Rather than vent these feelings inappropriately, the individual may instead release these feelings in another way, such as through physical activity or another stress relieving activity.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm sure the antics that are happening on your streets are a rare sight on the streets of Pyongyang or in China and other countries where law and order can be maintained, even in Australia, rarely does anything like that ever happen here.

Sure, when we host things like G20 or APEC, but never over Government changes etc. And never do rioters ever target our Shrine of Rememberance, sure no one could be that disrespectful?

I think, they really don't know when they are so well off. They have an opportunity to get a piece of paper and make something of themselves, what ever the cost, surely that would be money well spent? But for ungrateful little tow-rags to go round the streets destroying things, being so disrespectful hoping to get their way, they act like 2 year olds having a hissey fit.

If they are looking for sympathy and someone to side with them, I'd hate to be the person putting their hand up, who could honstly say they support all that we have seen on TV? Attacking their future King, real smart idea.

Sometimes, you can really see where Pol Pot was coming from.

For someone who doesn't even live in England, and who would not be affected by this I cannot see how you are relevant at all. But everyone is entitled to comment.


As to your last sentence I think it sums up you and how little you know about this.

 

[4SRKT]

For someone who doesn't even live in England, and who would not be affected by this I cannot see how you are relevant at all. But everyone is entitled to comment.


As to your last sentence I think it sums up you and how little you know about this.

Warning! Do not feed the troll!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Warning! Do not feed the troll!

Yes, I realise he was trolling, but to stop so low as to justify the polpot regime!

 

[Aussie_Rail]

For someone who doesn't even live in England, and who would not be affected by this I cannot see how you are relevant at all. But everyone is entitled to comment.


As to your last sentence I think it sums up you and how little you know about this.

I call it the butterfly effect, things happening there, especially relating to students like that, plus the nature of it all. Gives uni students here a reason to kick up a stink over things that doesn't really matter to them. Thank God the year has ended here, it would have been very unbareable to have been at uni if this happend during the semester.

If they splash it all over my TV, I have a right to moan.

 

[90019]

If the police are in containment mode, you have the choice to stay as far away from the trouble as you can, that's not difficult at all.

If you're being kettled and people start getting violent, how do you propose you get away from them?

 

[mumrar]

Hardly any different to scotsman assessing someone's post through the eyes of Hitler is it?

The violence that has both punctuated the lead up and the aftermath of the vote is what will stick with people. Vandalising the treasury, attacking the monarch in waiting, defacing war memorials and statues of our wartime leader, none of this is small fry. They have been deliberately targetted by whoever has done so. People who have put up with the introduction of VAT rises, mass budget cuts, mortgage payment increases, fuel bills rising, food and drink rising and job cuts or pay freezes have managed to voice their discontent without resorting to violence. And this is a much bigger group than the amount of students demanding a 'free for all' further education.

I've read a number of posts wrongly comparing the NHS and universities. If you are ill, being without access to healthcare means you will die. If you are clever, but are scared off university by the higher costs, you shall neither become stupid, nor die from the effect.

 

[Pumbaa]

Originally Posted by Geezertronic
If the police are in containment mode, you have the choice to stay as far away from the trouble as you can, that's not difficult at all.

If the Police tell the crowd that they are about to release them, then walk them onto Westminster Bridge and hold them there for a further 4 hours till past 11pm, with the crowd quite clearly getting more and more agitated for that entire duration, having been kettled since just after 5, how would you get away from the front of the police line?

People fainted and were crushed yesterday in that kettle, as in all the kettles before. I hardly believe you have the option of staying away from anywhere in particular - you are stuck where you are.

 

[Geezertronic]

If you're being kettled and people start getting violent, how do you propose you get away from them?

Move away from the violent ones? You cannot assume that everyone in the kettle is getting violent which I am sure is not the case. Since I've never been in that situation I cannot say for sure but if I found myself in that situation that is what I would do, even to go as far as to talk to the officers involved which may help.

 

[imagination]

What happened to someone who DID decide to leave the area:

Alfie Meadows, 20, of Middlesex University, was hit on the head as he tried to leave Westminster Abbey area, his mother Susan Matthews said

suffering internal bleeding to the brain as a result

The hit was by a policeman by the way (just realised that wasnt clear from above)

 

[Geezertronic]

I wonder what he was doing before he tried to leave? Or was he running away from the police after doing something he shouldn't? Who knows, I doubt his mum really does.

 

[Ferret]

Maybe, but since when was hitting somebody round the head part of how the Police should deal with somebody not playing ball? How many times have we read about some drunken tossers throwing punches at each other, and someone aims their punch a little too well, and kills a man?

 

[4SRKT]

I wonder what he was doing before he tried to leave? Or was he running away from the police after doing something he shouldn't? Who knows, I doubt his mum really does.

That's right, because the Police are ALWAYS right, aren't they?

 

[Geezertronic]

Maybe, but since when was hitting somebody round the head part of how the Police should deal with somebody not playing ball. How many times have we read about some drunken tossers throwing punches at each other, and someone aims their punch a little too well, and kills a man?

The same could be said for those that attacked the police. While they may or may not be drunk, the same still applies to them attacking the police and also injuring their fellow rioters by their actions.

No one comes out of this well - the police never come out of situations like this smelling of roses regardless of how they handled the riot and there will always be an unfortunate Ian Tomlinson situation (although hopefully not resulting in a death this time).

That's right, because the Police are ALWAYS right, aren't they?

Probably about as right as this guys mother, you or me...

 

[Pumbaa]

I wonder what he was doing before he tried to leave? Or was he running away from the police after doing something he shouldn't? Who knows, I doubt his mum really does.

Some snippets here from Paul Owen, writing for the Guardian, but perusing Twitter etc and asking for people who were there to come forward. These are all written accounts by people who were there. Scoff at them as much as you like, but I feel these are more representative than what we are seeing in the media elsewhere:

At around 5.30pm, the police charged down Whitehall. To try and escape, fearing violence, I asked an officer where I should go. I was directed, like a number of people wanting to leave the area, down an narrow alley by the Ministry of Defence. Seconds later, with no warning, we faced a charge by several mounted police. Luckily, as I was by the edge I was able to cling against the metal fence. However, several others, mainly scared children, wanting to go home were hurt. Afterwards, many were left crying on the street and were finding it very difficult to acquire medical assistance. It felt miraculous that nobody fell and was trampled to death.

I was pushed backwards into the people behind me in the initial charge but the crushed and scared crowd pushed back to stop everyone falling over. I saw several around me hit by batons and fall, screaming. I was then hit over the head by a baton, hard enough to knock me sideways, then again, I think by the same officer. My ears rang and I couldn't hold my balance. I fell over and an officer stepped forward and deliberately stamped his foot into my chest, winding me.

A man next to me picked me up and held my bleeding head in front of the police (this I have heard from him as I was semi- or unconscious). They did not hit him but did not move aside. He repeatedly screamed for a medic but the police pretended not to hear him although it was clear to look at me that I needed one. He pushed his way through the police line who did not resist but hit a man who tried to follow.

Next to him, a police officer spontaneously collapsed, apparently feigning unconsciousness. As the officer was not on the front line, had had nothing thrown at him and was wearing full body armour including helmet with visor down, he could not have been injured. The only nearby medic immediately tended to this officer, who had apparently faked an injury. Both medics and police ignored me and my friend who shouted repeatedly for assistance. Giving up, he half-walked, half-carried me to hospital. Once there he attempted to get police to take a statement from me but was told there were none available. I spent three hours in hospital, dizzy, bleeding from the head and being repeatedly sick. My speech was apparently slurred and I have poor memory of what happened for the rest of the day. I had been told to stay overnight but feeling scared and victimised from being hit I left and returned home.

At one point, when we were told we could leave via Westminster Abbey, there were underage children crying and being crushed in the confusion caused by police officers. We were being told to go back, but there was no way to go as those in the back of the crowd were unable to hear the police. And so anyone at the front ended up being crushed, with one girl extremely close to passing out.

I think the only thing that prevented people from suffering as a result of the cold was down to how tightly packed in we were. There was very little room to breathe, and at times people had to stand on one leg as there was nowhere to even put your feet. It was absolutely terrifying to be in such a situation – and the police just made matters worse.

Almost all of the defacement, fires, etc occurred after kettling – this is not to excuse that but to point out that kettling did not contain the destruction as much as incite it. I did try to step in and stop some of it, as when I told a kid to stop breaking up concrete to throw, but the people being violent were in no mood to listen. There were quite a significant number of those people there but it wasn't everyone by any means. News reports and the police have said that people who wanted to leave, could. We certainly could not and we tried every exit.

In the video you can clearly see a boy no older than 11 and two girls slightly older trying to get out and being turned back by police. I was scared; I can only imagine how they must have felt facing repeated cavalry charges. Also watch for the moment when three mounted officers charge their horses through the narrow laneway opposite Downing street to stop people escaping the kettle. It was a miracle nobody was killed or seriously injured during this reckless exercise in terror. Also note the moment when a regiment with badges covered up comes forward to confront the crowd.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xg26u6_student-demonstration-london-09-12-2010_news

I saw 14-year-olds carry out their friends with cracked heads and things like that. I saw that people were being kettled until 1am on Westminster Bridge. They were held there without toilet facilities, without water or food for 10 hours. We don't live in that kind of regime ... What we experienced is horrendous for a democratic regime.

We were told at 8.30pm that the police would lead us across Westminster bridge and then let us leave, but we were actually held on the bridge until 11pm. I estimate that there were at least 2,000 of us. People were fainting from being so crushed, and from not having eaten since before we arrived at Parliament Square. We were told nothing about why we were being held there, and, as frustration understandably rose, people began to push forward. Were the police waiting for someone to be crushed, to break a limb, or to be pushed over the edge of the bridge by the force of people behind them?

I was quite close to the police line, and could not stop myself being pushed towards them. I saw people being hit and forcibly pushed back even though they were not the ones doing the pushing. Most of us were not trying to cause trouble, just get home, and the police tactics caused problems rather than solving them.

Violent thugs? I am a 21-year-old literature student and I am a protester. I danced to music on Parliament Square as people spray painted NO on the grass, I shouted 'tory **** tory ****' with pride, I got pushed to the police front line and charged by horses on two occasions (please see footage of charges on 24th and 9th). I am not ashamed.

If you want to look at thugs then look to to the police.

I am a girl of five foot two, I was pushed several times in the face, dragged on the floor and laughed at by police when I told them I had asthma. This is why people get angry, because people were being trapped and wanted to get out.

All afternoon we were told people were able to leave from various places but this was just not true.

I asked a policeman were I could go to the toilet; he pointed at the floor by his feet.

Another shouted: "Move, bitch, or I'll squash you with my horse."

Eventually, when the protests had died down and people were desperate to go home, a group of around 1,000 protesters were finally escorted to Westminster Bridge to exit; however this was a trick. What then happened was we were held on the bridge for hours in the freezing cold. The crowd remained calm, but after hours of freezing people began to chant "let us out" and then the crowd pushed forwards. Being small I was carried by the crowd and ended up by the police line. I was tired and cold and hadn't eaten for 12 hours or had any water.

I screamed at the police not to hurt me because I was being pushed but they still went for my face, almost pulling me to the floor. A man to my right put his arms over my face, screaming, "Leave her alone, she's a girl, she's not harming you," but the police began to hit him several times on the head.

When we were finally let off the bridge it was one at a time through huge crowds of jeering officers. We were told we were being photographed in case we had damaged royal car. But how this could have happened whilst we were kettled in parliament i don't know.

What I will say is that by this stage the anarchists had fought their way out, and just lots of women and children were left to freeze.

I just got home after attending the embers of the protest at the end of Victoria Street. While there I got chatting to a 17year-old girl. A while later a group of people who I believe to be neo-Nazis turned up and started causing trouble. They were trying to start on an old man of about 60. A policeman calmed him down. They then started picking on this girl. They all started to scream "****!" at her and she called them this back. The group (about 12-15) walked up to her in a very menacing way. We backed off towards the police and then one of the group pushed the girl violently in the head, causing her to fall down on her back. I pulled her away to the police and asked for help. Two of them smirked at each other and one said: "You wanted free speech." They then continued to watch as the neo-Nazis caused trouble. This occurred at around 7pm.

Three things I saw:

One, a guy running away from police along Whitehall getting being unable to run further because of a stray barrier. Before he could jump over, two police charged into him with their shields and repeatedly hit him with their shields, against the barrier.

Two, other people have mentioned it, but still: a V-shaped wedge of mounted police charging into a crowd of teenagers – whose only objective at the time was to leave Parliament Square.

Three, someone trapped behind police lines with two policemen standing over them, repeatedly bringing their batons down, while the rest of us were pushed back.

There were people seriously hurt. I saw a couple of people prone being tended by police medics.

And my favourite, which unlike the above, was written by J Karn, who writes frequently and well on the democratic use of justice and crime:

At 9 o'clock, Big Ben tolling, we were moved onto the bridge, thankful to be at last free to go home. But no. Again we stopped. Of course, the police simply wanted to move those causing damage away from buildings. By this time I was cold, hungry and tired ... Three cold teenagers in T-shirts came past, looking upset, and I asked if they were OK. "They won't let us out," they said. "My Dad's called Scotland Yard and everything."

They were 15 and I was sure police were obliged to let minors go. I went up to the line of riot police and explained that there were three 15-year-olds here. Could they let them go? "No, no one is to leave." I asked if a senior officer could come who could make that decision. "The decision had been made," he said. I politely asked him to lower his visor so that the children could take his number so that his parents could file a complaint.

At around 11pm, 7 hours after I was trapped on Whitehall by a line of police horses I was released with a camera filming me with more police lining the exit than I have ever seen. Someone in front of me said something to an officer about being kettled. He replied, "We don't call it kettling." I pitched in: "Whatever you call it, it is still unjust."

"**** off," he muttered.

"Kettling" is justified as a tactic to reduce disorder without the use of police violence. But I saw police charging on horseback into a crowd of children and police lines formed where there was no disorder. Like anyone else I do not expect to be held for seven hours on a freezing cold night for no reason when I have done nothing and when officers themselves tell me they can see I am doing nothing. To emerge to see the news coverage completely ignoring the crowds calmly waiting, frightened on the other side of the sqaure from all the mayhem, simply rubs salt into the wound. I sympathise with Charles and Camilla. I ask them and others to imagine what it was like when you were not in a car and couldn't leave.

 

[Geezertronic]

Some snippets here from Paul Owen, writing for the Guardian, but perusing Twitter etc and asking for people who were there to come forward. These are all written accounts by people who were there. Scoff at them as much as you like, but I feel these are more representative than what we are seeing in the media elsewhere:

Maaybe the police should be allowed to write their own stories about how the protest turned violent.

That video link off the Daily Motion website says it all really. It starts off with a crowd surge against the police followed by some guy in a brown jacket squaring up to a copper (0:45) and shouts of abuse towards the police. Followed by periods of calm and walking/running through the streets shouting "Our Streets" (which is fine) towards a police block. 5 mins in, that is as far as I got.

What I still don't understand (and anyone please feel free to comment) why protestors younger than 16 were there in the first place? You have to wonder what was in their parents mind if they indeed knew their kids were going to the protest.

 

[imagination]

"Kids younger than 16" will be the ones being directly affected by the changes. Thus they probably have stronger opinions on the matter than anyone else.

 

[Ferret]

The same could be said for those that attacked the police. While they may or may not be drunk, the same still applies to them attacking the police and also injuring their fellow rioters by their actions.

No one comes out of this well - the police never come out of situations like this smelling of roses regardless of how they handled the riot and there will always be an unfortunate Ian Tomlinson situation (although hopefully not resulting in a death this time).

I must agree. My concern with the Police is that they are trained to use force where necessary that should not harm a member of the public. That kid could've died having been whacked on the head with a truncheon. Not good at all.

"Kids younger than 16" will be the ones being directly affected by the changes. Thus they probably have stronger opinions on the matter than anyone else.

But they should have been in school, not at this protest which everybody suspected would turn violent.

 

[Lampshade]

How did all these students afford to get to London in the first place?

A lot of student unions (mine included) provided free/cheap coaches.

 

[Pumbaa]

What I still don't understand (and anyone please feel free to comment) why protestors younger than 16 were there in the first place? You have to wonder what was in their parents mind if they indeed knew their kids were going to the protest.

Because they care about how their future will be impacted - I would be as well if I was 15. And good on them, if you care about it go make your point! I highly doubt most parents knew or supported, but isn't that what being a teenager is all about?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maaybe the police should be allowed to write their own stories about how the protest turned violent.

Perhaps they should. And perhaps they should also account why their removed their numbers (which is an offence) and the commisioner should account why he felt that 'not deploying firearms' showed adequate restraint on behalf of the Met.

 

[Ferret]

Perhaps they should. And perhaps they should also account why their removed their numbers (which is an offence) and the commisioner should account why he felt that 'not deploying firearms' showed adequate restraint on behalf of the Met.

To be clear, was he not specifically referring to the disgraceful incident involving Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall? One rioter actually tried to reach into the car - a dumbass move if ever there was one. I'd agree with the Commisioner here - the protection officers could easily have reached for a firearm at this point but instead acted correctly in getting the Royal couple out of a dodgy situation before any real harm was done.

 

[LE Greys]

But they should have been in school, not at this protest which everybody suspected would turn violent.

Are they not people like us whose voice has a right to be heard? I am all for unionising schools and the right of schoolchildren to strike (campaigned for it when I was fourteen).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be clear, was he not specifically referring to the disgraceful incident involving Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall? One rioter actually tried to reach into the car - a dumbass move if ever there was one. I'd agree with the Commisioner here - the protection officers could easily have reached for a firearm at this point but instead acted correctly in getting the Royal couple out of a dodgy situation before any real harm was done.

That was pure stupidity. I don't regret going to the first demo, but I'm glad I wasn't there to see that happen.