Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[nw1]

There's a side of me that think we need an election ASAP just so there can be a clear out.

As Leegate is making the Tories look even bigger idiots than they were already, one wonders whether even they realise they need to hold the election ASAP, so that they can move on and focusing on making the Tory party a serious party again.

 

[Gloster]

As Leegate is making the Tories look even bigger idiots than they were already, one wonders whether even they realise they need to hold the election ASAP, so that they can move on and focusing on making the Tory party a serious party again.

But do they want to make the party a serious one again or are they more interested in indulging their own personal fetishes?

 

[brad465]

This would be a field day for Labour if it happened:

Jeremy Hunt considers scrapping ‘non-dom’ tax status at the Budget

Chancellor looks at raising revenue by overhauling perks enjoyed by UK residents with an overseas domicile

on.ft.com

Jeremy Hunt has drawn up emergency Budget plans to scrap or scale back Britain’s “non-dom” tax rules, in the event that he needs to raise billions of pounds to fund mass-market pre-election tax cuts.

 

[nw1]

But do they want to make the party a serious one again or are they more interested in indulging their own personal fetishes?

The sane MPs and members of the Tory Party must surely want to, and presumably they still have some influence... don't they?

 

[Silenos]

This would be a field day for Labour if it happened:

Jeremy Hunt considers scrapping ‘non-dom’ tax status at the Budget

Chancellor looks at raising revenue by overhauling perks enjoyed by UK residents with an overseas domicile

on.ft.com

Can’t see the Tories’ masters in the right wing media allowing that…

 

[nw1]

Having said that (#7114) I now see this:

More than half of Conservative party members believe Islam is a threat to the British way of life, according to a poll that sheds light on the hostility with which large parts of the party view the country’s second biggest religion.

The poll of 521 Conservative members by Opinium found that 58% say Islam poses a threat to this country – double the proportion of the overall population who believe the same. It found that 52% believe the increasingly prominent conspiracy theory that parts of European cities are under sharia law and are “no-go” areas for non-Muslims.

More than half of Tory members in poll say Islam a threat to British way of life

Figure for party is twice proportion among overall population and comes amid row over Lee Anderson comments about Sadiq Khan

www.theguardian.com

The Tory party needs to do a thorough purge of this sort of hard-right nonsense. People with these sorts of views, to be quite honest, need to go off and join Reform UK as that is obviously where they belong. Heaven knows what the likes of John Major must be thinking, or even David Cameron for that matter.

 

[jfollows]

Having said that (#7114) I now see this:

More than half of Tory members in poll say Islam a threat to British way of life

Figure for party is twice proportion among overall population and comes amid row over Lee Anderson comments about Sadiq Khan

www.theguardian.com

The Tory party needs to do a thorough purge of this sort of hard-right nonsense. People with these sorts of views, to be quite honest, need to go off and join Reform UK as that is obviously where they belong. Heaven knows what the likes of John Major must be thinking, or even David Cameron for that matter.

Yes, but they won't will they?
You and I and most people know that.
The next leader will be in hock to people who agree with this sort of stuff, and blame their election defeat on Rishi Sunak not being a "real" Conservative, and the only way forward is to move to the right.
Complete nonsense, of course. Everyone loathes them just about today for what they've done and what they've not done since 2010 but more recently in particular.
And then they'll all get disillusioned about being in opposition, and think about how to get back into power.
And then choose as someone for leader who is not tainted by association with any of this stuff.
Just like they did before, just like Labour did before, it's all obvious.
At least, as someone well away from Westminster like most of us here are, it seems obvious to me.

 

[brad465]

Here we go:

Protests descending into mob rule, Rishi Sunak warns police

Officers must use their powers against people who undermine democracy by targeting MPs, Rishi Sunak says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has warned police chiefs of a "growing consensus that mob rule is replacing democratic rule".
He wants more robust police responses that he says are needed to protect politicians and democratic processes.
This includes an "immediate response" from police to intimidatory protest at MPs' homes.
But human rights group Amnesty International says the PM "wildly exaggerates the issue".
Mr Sunak was speaking the day after the Home Office announced a £31m package aimed at protecting MPs, stating it was in response to the impact of the ongoing Israel-Hamas conflict.
Mass and largely peaceful demonstrations have been taking place across the UK since the 7 October attacks on Israel by Hamas and when Israel began its military assault in response to destroy the group in Gaza.
Now police bosses have been summoned to Downing Street, where the PM urged them to use existing powers to crack down on intimidation, disruption and subversion "urgently".
He said: "We simply cannot allow this pattern of increasingly violent and intimidatory behaviour which is, as far as anyone can see, intended to shout down free debate and stop elected representatives doing their job.
"That is simply undemocratic... I am going to do whatever it requires to protect our democracy and our values that we all hold dear.
"That is what the public expect. It is fundamental to our democratic system. And also it is vital for maintaining public confidence in the police."

• We'll continue to march, say pro-Palestinian groups
• More notice of protests would help police, MPs say
• How the Gaza conflict is contorting UK politics

Police are being advised that protests outside MPs' homes and offices should generally be considered intimidatory and therefore "trigger an immediate response".
A Home Office document states: "Elected representatives have been threatened and had their family homes targeted. Council meetings have been repeatedly disrupted and, in some cases, abandoned... Last Wednesday, protestors threatened to force Parliament to "lock its doors".
"These are not isolated incidents or legitimate means of achieving change through force of peaceful argument... It is as un-British as it is undemocratic.
"If public confidence is to be maintained and the integrity of the democratic process is to be preserved, it cannot be allowed to stand."
One of the groups behind the demonstrations, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, has said it does not support protests outside MPs' homes but has defended the right to stage peaceful protests outside MPs' offices and council chambers.
The Labour Party is understood to believe the proposals are sensible but the PM's language is not.
Conservative Donna Jones, the chairwoman of Association of Police and Crime Commissioners, told BBC Newsnight the police do currently have enough powers - and have been using them to arrest protesters.
Ms Jones, who was at the Downing Street meeting, said: "We've all heard the message now from pro-Palestinian groups. We've heard it, we know it, we get what they're trying to say - but this type of unlawful behaviour has got to stop."

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Having said that (#7114) I now see this:

More than half of Tory members in poll say Islam a threat to British way of life

Figure for party is twice proportion among overall population and comes amid row over Lee Anderson comments about Sadiq Khan

www.theguardian.com

The Tory party needs to do a thorough purge of this sort of hard-right nonsense. People with these sorts of views, to be quite honest, need to go off and join Reform UK as that is obviously where they belong. Heaven knows what the likes of John Major must be thinking, or even David Cameron for that matter.

The Guardian is presenting that as if it's somehow shocking, but I'm not convinced it is. Realistically, some variants of Islam encompass practices and beliefs that do present at threat to us. There have been numerous terrorist attacks by people who claim adherence to Islam over recent years in both the UK and the continent. And even today, a teacher from Yorkshire apparently remains in hiding, fearful for his life after some Muslims took offence at one of his lessons. Now of course, the people who are responsible for these attacks and threats probably only form a small minority who follow an extreme form of Islam, and it's important not to tar the great majority of Muslims in the UK who do not support terrorism. But if you ask random people whether Islam is a threat to the British way of life, you're leaving it completely open to whether people interpret your question as referring to the majority of Muslims or as referring to those who do present a threat. So it's hardly surprising and I would say not at all shocking if that question gives a high rate of people responding 'Yes'. It almost certainly does NOT mean that 58% of respondents hate Muslims or anything awful like that.

 

[Russel]

Some interesting reading in this thread.

What is the feeling regarding general election timing? Spring, autumn or hold out until Jan 25?

 

[Pete_uk]

The same day as the local elections in May.

 

[sor]

Here we go:

Protests descending into mob rule, Rishi Sunak warns police

Officers must use their powers against people who undermine democracy by targeting MPs, Rishi Sunak says.

www.bbc.co.uk

the tories have presided over 14 years of cuts to the police and social services and more recently have happily cheered on incredibly divisive rhetoric to win elections. the state has been hollowed out. Why is Sunak trying to act all surprised that this has now come home to roost?

Of course the answer is always harsher sentences, higher fines, rather than a) better enforcement and b) a more holistic approach to looking at why people are acting like this

 

[nw1]

Some interesting reading in this thread.

What is the feeling regarding general election timing? Spring, autumn or hold out until Jan 25?

Probabilities in percentage terms (IMO):

Spring 44%
Autumn 54% (Oct 44%, Nov 10%)
Jan 25 2%

Hoping for spring election, I think there is a real chance now albeit still slightly less than autumn. Things aren't good for the Tories now, which won't favour spring, but having said that, people are more optimistic in spring in general which would favour a spring election. Plus I think the Tories are just not taking the job seriously anymore, which might encourage some in the party to want to get it all over with now and start again.

If autumn I still think Oct as it won't be excessively dark in the evening.

January is an insane time to hold an election, for all sorts of reasons, so surely won't happen.

 

[edwin_m]

The Guardian is presenting that as if it's somehow shocking, but I'm not convinced it is. Realistically, some variants of Islam encompass practices and beliefs that do present at threat to us. There have been numerous terrorist attacks by people who claim adherence to Islam over recent years in both the UK and the continent. And even today, a teacher from Yorkshire apparently remains in hiding, fearful for his life after some Muslims took offence at one of his lessons. Now of course, the people who are responsible for these attacks and threats probably only form a small minority who follow an extreme form of Islam, and it's important not to tar the great majority of Muslims in the UK who do not support terrorism. But if you ask random people whether Islam is a threat to the British way of life, you're leaving it completely open to whether people interpret your question as referring to the majority of Muslims or as referring to those who do present a threat. So it's hardly surprising and I would say not at all shocking if that question gives a high rate of people responding 'Yes'. It almost certainly does NOT mean that 58% of respondents hate Muslims or anything awful like that.

By the same logic the right wing can be considered a threat to the British way of life, due to incidents like the murder of Jo Cox and the behaviour of "Tommy Robinson".

 

[nw1]

Here we go:

Protests descending into mob rule, Rishi Sunak warns police

Officers must use their powers against people who undermine democracy by targeting MPs, Rishi Sunak says.

www.bbc.co.uk

What a load of ridiculous hyperbole; "mob rule", indeed.

So is this a tactic to over-inflate a situation in order to justify right-wing authoritarianism, and thus gain votes from a certain section of the population? Or a tactic to distract from Leegate? ("It's the Palestine supporters who are the bad guys - not us").

To me it seems the real problem is typified by the likes of Lee Anderson claiming that Sadiq Khan is under control of Islamists and Tories failing to condemn this robustly enough. Right-wing authoritarian populism is what worries me about the Tories in their current form and why, IMO, it would be really bad for the UK if they were, somehow, to win the next election. There's more than a whiff of Trump about people like Anderson.

 

[najaB]

Realistically, some variants of Islam encompass practices and beliefs that do present at threat to us. There have been numerous terrorist attacks by people who claim adherence to Islam over recent years in both the UK and the continent.

There have also been a number of attacks and incidents by people who claim adherence to Christianity, and others by people who claim adherence to no particular religion.

Looking at Wikipedia, since 2000 nine major attacks have been committed in the name of Islam and seven in the name of Christianity/Far Right causes.

Edit: The original link I posted was malformed, now corrected. The table linked shows a list of the deadliest terrorist incidents in Europe since 2000, broken down by ideology. It's too big to quote but, as noted above, lists nine incidents with Islamist ideology, two with separatist/nationalistic ideology, three originating from far-right beliefs and two that are unclassified.

 

[nlogax]

January is an insane time to hold an election, for all sorts of reasons, so surely won't happen

It is but I wouldn't rule it out if Tory leadership's desperation means clinging on upto the last minute to maximise any chance of a victory.

Personally I do think we're looking at October.

 

[Typhoon]

Here we go:

Protests descending into mob rule, Rishi Sunak warns police

Officers must use their powers against people who undermine democracy by targeting MPs, Rishi Sunak says.

www.bbc.co.uk

I would say there are two separate issues here.

Threats to MPs (or others seen to be in positions of authority) are not made by large groups, they are made by individuals or very small groups for a number of reasons such as getting some kick out of causing alarm and distress among people they probably don't know but may have some sort of grievance (often unfounded) about. It is made by those with (usually) extreme political persuasions or none. These threats have increased because perpetrators are 'getting away with it'.

'Mob rule' has happened since time immemorial. That is not to defend it. However, this 'mob rule' seems to be restricted certain parts of the country. No-one has raised it with me in casual conversation here in East Kent. There have been minor issues of vandalism but many of these are down to the actions (or inactions) of Southern Water and Kent County Council. I suspect there are many other parts of the country where more important issues are to the fore.
I spent the last half of my working life in inner city Birmingham, where a significant number of my students were Muslim, I have talked to their parents as well as staff members of the same faith and, occasionally, religious officials. Generally, they abhor violence but, especially at this time of year, will probably feel that the calls for restraint made to the government of Israel have been unheeded, a call that has been echoed by Jews (individual and groups) within Israel and beyond. I have lived through The Troubles, various Brixton riots, the Miner's Strike, the Poll Tax riots and the protests against the Vietnam War. Thus far it does not compare and making claims like 'descending into mob rule' don't help. Nor is it likely to assist Mr Sunak. By making this claim, my response, echoing that of some posters above, is 'Who is in charge?'

 

[nw1]

The Guardian is presenting that as if it's somehow shocking, but I'm not convinced it is. Realistically, some variants of Islam encompass practices and beliefs that do present at threat to us. There have been numerous terrorist attacks by people who claim adherence to Islam over recent years in both the UK and the continent. And even today, a teacher from Yorkshire apparently remains in hiding, fearful for his life after some Muslims took offence at one of his lessons. Now of course, the people who are responsible for these attacks and threats probably only form a small minority who follow an extreme form of Islam, and it's important not to tar the great majority of Muslims in the UK who do not support terrorism. But if you ask random people whether Islam is a threat to the British way of life, you're leaving it completely open to whether people interpret your question as referring to the majority of Muslims or as referring to those who do present a threat. So it's hardly surprising and I would say not at all shocking if that question gives a high rate of people responding 'Yes'. It almost certainly does NOT mean that 58% of respondents hate Muslims or anything awful like that.

It still seems, to me, to be demonising Islam and that is surely not an acceptable thing. Would it be right if other religions were considered "a threat to the British way of life"?

 

[Gloster]

I think that it is all leading up to the election. The Conservatives, with help from parts of the media, will claim that Labour is not tough enough/too close to/the same as the ‘forces of chaos’: so vote Conservative if you want to save the British way of life. They are throwing any dirty trick they can think of in and will call an election when they think the pot is boiling best.

 

[nw1]

There have also been a number of attacks and incidents by people who claim adherence to Christianity, and others by people who claim adherence to no particular religion.

Looking at Wikipedia, since 2000 nine major attacks have been committed in the name of Islam and seven in the name of Christianity/Far Right causes.

Indeed and look at some of the extremism and authoritarianism going on in the American Deep South supposedly in the name of Christianity.

 

[najaB]

Indeed and look at some of the extremism and authoritarianism going on in the American Deep South supposedly in the name of Christianity.

One thing that all religious extremists have in common is that most of the people committing that acts are poorly educated and economically disadvantaged and very few have actually studied their religious texts.

They're almost always acting out of misplaced anger and resentment, and follow instructions (implied or expressed) of a leader that they idolise - be that an Imam or a twice-impeached, four times indicted former president.

If Sunak really wants to solve the problem, rather than to just stoke culture wars, it's those people that he needs to call out, not the adherents of one of the world's biggest religions.

 

[Gloster]

One thing that all religious extremists have in common is that most of the people committing that acts are poorly educated and economically disadvantaged and very few have actually studied their religious texts.

They're almost always acting out of misplaced anger and resentment, and follow instructions (implied or expressed) of a leader that they idolise - be that an Imam or a twice-impeached, four times indicted former president.

If Sunak really wants to solve the problem, rather than to just stoke culture wars, it's those people that he needs to call out, not the adherents of one of the world's biggest religions.

But no politician wants to upset these leaders: s/he might be able to do something, like a dirty deal, that will get the leader to tell the followers to vote for X’. The only ones to be demonised are those who don’t have any power, even if they are harmless: it was ever so.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In terms of recent comments, personally I'm finding the deliberate conflation between legitimate protest and abuse that clearly crosses the line somewhat worrying.

Yes of course abusing politicians and their families right outside their homes isn't on. But to deliberately conflate that with peaceful legitimate protests being held outside politicians offices and council meetings is just so incredibly wrong I don't know where to start.

It's blatantly clear that despite already cracking down on some of our rights to protest the Tories want to go even further.

 

[Typhoon]

I notice that Jonathan Gullis has been droning on about an event in Stoke which was disrupted by protesters (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...1&cvid=f359e04e61464ac88b14b28798ea6c98&ei=57

Since 2010 Prime Minister has been a Conservative, the Home Secretary has been a Conservative, The Secretary of State for Justice has been a Conservative (all 12 of them), the Police and Crime Commissioner for Staffordshire has been a Conservative.
So what does that say about Conservatives, Mr G? 'Ineffective' is the word that jumps to mind.

(Ironically, the event was raising funds for the forthcoming Police and Crime Commissioner Elections.)

One of the panel guests seems to be a presenter, not for the first time. Can't they find enough people to appear on their channel without resorting to those already in the building?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If Sunak really wants to solve the problem, rather than to just stoke culture wars, it's those people that he needs to call out, not the adherents of one of the world's biggest religions.

Eh? Sunak hasn't, as far as I'm aware, said anything here about the adherents of Islam, so I'm not sure why you're implicitly accusing him of having done so. We're discussing a poll in which ordinary Tory members were asked whether they thought Islam was a threat to our way of life, and 58% said, yes. Separately from that, Sunak has talked about the (alleged) danger to democracy from demonstrators/mob rule/etc. but I don't believe he specifically mentioned Islam in that regard.

There have also been a number of attacks and incidents by people who claim adherence to Christianity, and others by people who claim adherence to no particular religion.

But it's not really comparable. The number of people who claim adherence to Christianity and either commit or support acts of terrorism with the claimed aim of spreading Christianity is negligible: Those who do so are invariably acting alone/almost alone and with no support from any Christian community. In contrast the number of Muslims who appear to support terrorism - while almost certainly a minority - is a significant minority, supported by a fair number of prominent clerics. There's even at least one actual country (Iran) whose Government appears to promote terrorism in the name of Islam. So it's hardly surprising if lots of people in the UK consider Islam to be a threat in a way that they would not consider Christianity to be one. (Though I'd grant that there's probably also some element of Christianity being seen as 'our' religion whereas Islam is seen as something that's come from outside, which will colour people's perceptions).

 

[renegademaster]

people committing that acts are poorly educated and economically disadvantaged and very few have actually studied their religious texts.

This isnt really true.
ISIS recruited very heavily among disaffected uni grads, the 9/11 lot where all well off and had advanced degrees often from European or American universities. Taliban came from a student movement.

 

[najaB]

ISIS recruited very heavily among disaffected uni grads, the 9/11 lot where all well off and had advanced degrees often from European or American universities. Taliban came from a student movement.

Pretty much all political movements start among students. But I doubt very much that anything more that 5-10% at most of the 200,000 in the ISIS ranks at the peak of their power had more than a primary education. OBL hand picked his team for 9/11, making them very much an outlier, again I doubt that anything close to 10% of Al Qaeda members were had any secondary education.

 

[Howardh]

Quietly news creeps out that while we send Rwanda £400m (? More??), they (a safe country remember) send us 21 asylum-seekers, and we send them, er, roughly at the last count, nil.

Not only is the UK government so incompetent it puts footballs "fit and proper test" to shame, we're now victims of the biggest scam in history. £400m and it keeps on growing, who gave the Rwandans our bank account log-in??

UK grants asylum to 15 more Rwandans after deportation deal deemed country safe

It takes the total number of Rwandans granted asylum in the UK to 21 since the Government signed its controversial deportation deal with the country

inews.co.uk

a further 15 people from Rwanda have been granted asylum in the UK, at the same time that the Government has argued it is a “safe” third country to send asylum seekers.

analysis of Home Office figures shows that 14 people from Rwanda were granted refugee status in the final three months of 2023, including six children under 18. Another person from Rwanda was given a “grant of other leave” to remain in the UK, which is usually granted on human rights grounds.

It comes after i revealed last month that six Rwandans were granted asylum in Britain between April 2022, when the Government signed its deportation deal with the country, and October 2023.

 

[brad465]

Eh? Sunak hasn't, as far as I'm aware, said anything here about the adherents of Islam, so I'm not sure why you're implicitly accusing him of having done so. We're discussing a poll in which ordinary Tory members were asked whether they thought Islam was a threat to our way of life, and 58% said, yes. Separately from that, Sunak has talked about the (alleged) danger to democracy from demonstrators/mob rule/etc. but I don't believe he specifically mentioned Islam in that regard.


But it's not really comparable. The number of people who claim adherence to Christianity and either commit or support acts of terrorism with the claimed aim of spreading Christianity is negligible: Those who do so are invariably acting alone/almost alone and with no support from any Christian community. In contrast the number of Muslims who appear to support terrorism - while almost certainly a minority - is a significant minority, supported by a fair number of prominent clerics. There's even at least one actual country (Iran) whose Government appears to promote terrorism in the name of Islam. So it's hardly surprising if lots of people in the UK consider Islam to be a threat in a way that they would not consider Christianity to be one. (Though I'd grant that there's probably also some element of Christianity being seen as 'our' religion whereas Islam is seen as something that's come from outside, which will colour people's perceptions).

Almost all terrorism/conflict conducted in the name of religion is not actually about religion. X religion is the excuse used by the promotors/aggressors to try and justify it. The real motives are always the same: land, power, money, resources, etc. I do think this message needs communicating more. I remember several years ago a Islamist extremist attempted a terror attack, and the member of the public who intervened to stop him succeeding said "You ain't no Muslim bruv!" This is what we need to promote more.