RMT Industrial Action - EMR

[robbeech]

On the 360s? Almost every service has the same calling pattern and always has.

No I meant the other services from Nottingham and Sheffield. Has there not been some adjustments to what calls where in order to speed them up, letting the 360s become the only services to call at some stations (where others now pass through) ?

 

[baz962]

Going DOO would seem a much simpler solution

Almost certainly won't happen. The 360 units have no Doo cameras.

 

[dk1]

Going DOO would seem a much simpler solution

Good luck (not that it would be) with that one.

 

[Bald Rick]

No I meant the other services from Nottingham and Sheffield. Has there not been some adjustments to what calls where in order to speed them up, letting the 360s become the only services to call at some stations (where others now pass through) ?

Oh I see. Yes that happened last May. 360s pick up all the EMR calls south of Kettering, and the Nottingham / Sheffield services don’t call anywhere south of Kettering, with a couple of exceptions.

 

[Signal_Box]

Going DOO would seem a much simpler solution

Maybe removing your job whatever that may be might be a good solution as well?

 

[Qwerty133]

Referendum concluded today, Regional Senior Conductors voted to accept the company proposals on terms and conditions and multiple working of class 170s. Intercity/Connect Train Managers voted to reject company proposals on multiple working of class 360s.

Sadly this is hardly an unexpected outcome as it has long been obviously that most of those on the regional side take pride in their jobs and actually want to be helpful where they can whilst most of those on the intercity side are happy to do as little as possible to collect their paycheque. I imagine one of the biggest issues with the TMs is that the 360s don't have a large enough first class area at one end of the train for the staff to treat as their personal area to spend time on their phones or talking about anything and everything other than work.

 

[Signal_Box]

Sadly this is hardly an unexpected outcome as it has long been obviously that most of those on the regional side take pride in their jobs and actually want to be helpful where they can whilst most of those on the intercity side are happy to do as little as possible to collect their paycheque. I imagine one of the biggest issues with the TMs is that the 360s don't have a large enough first class area at one end of the train for the staff to treat as their personal area to spend time on their phones or talking about anything and everything other than work.

As a ex guard your correct, in terms of ex intercity crew seeing units as somewhat below them. FGW TMs didn’t like one bit working west units.

Strange as Kettering depot was more or less very heavy on new entrants, maybe it’s the TMs at St Pancras who don’t like units? Ironic as 222s are units !

 

[the sniper]

Just don't run multiples and let the Train Managers explain why to the crushed in passengers.

Isn't the main issue 360x3s, rather than 360x2?

It was pretty clear that this was going to be an unagreeable situation. I've wondered whether it wouldn't have been easier to attempt reaching an agreement whereby SCs sign 360s & Corby - St Pancreas, particularly given electrification further north on the MML was going to be a thing eventually anyway, before it wasn't, then was again.

 

[Qwerty133]

Isn't the main issue 360x3s, rather than 360x2?

It was pretty clear that this was going to be an unagreeable situation. I've wondered whether it wouldn't have been easier to attempt reach an agreement whereby SCs sign 360s & Corby - St Pancreas, particularly given electrification further north on the MML was going to be a thing eventually anyway, before it wasn't, then was again.

The Corby services are geographically too far away from the current network operated by the SCs for that to make any sense. Personally I'd be looking at making all of the TMs across the franchise redundant with an expanded role for SCs across the whole franchise (of course those TMs willing to transfer to the SC grade would be able to maintain their jobs) both because of the more favourable attitude amongst the SC colleagues and also to improve productivity and flexibility.

 

[the sniper]

The Corby services are geographically too far away from the current network operated by the SCs for that to make any sense.

How much of the work is Kettering's, which was a new depot, IIRC?

Personally I'd be looking at making all of the TMs across the franchise redundant with an expanded role for SCs across the whole franchise (of course those TMs willing to transfer to the SC grade would be able to maintain their jobs) both because of the more favourable attitude amongst the SC colleagues and also to improve productivity and flexibility.

Which would have created a far greater dispute with the RMT. The SCs couldn't have entertained the principle that sets, even if they might be short term beneficiaries.

 

[MCSHF007]

I imagine one of the biggest issues with the TMs is that the 360s don't have a large enough first class area at one end of the train for the staff to treat as their personal area to spend time on their phones or talking about anything and everything other than work.

Exactly my experience of EMR/EMT Meridians. Coach H/G regarded as a sacrosanct messroom dominated by high pitched piffle. Please madam(s), we're trying to work/relax here, not be subjected to a constant barrage of irritating staff babble/gossip.

 

[trentside]

The Corby services are geographically too far away from the current network operated by the SCs for that to make any sense. Personally I'd be looking at making all of the TMs across the franchise redundant with an expanded role for SCs across the whole franchise (of course those TMs willing to transfer to the SC grade would be able to maintain their jobs) both because of the more favourable attitude amongst the SC colleagues and also to improve productivity and flexibility.

I haven’t been on the forum for awhile, but I’m pleased to see stuff like this is alive and well. How do you think this would go? You also naively assume that the company would prefer this - Senior Conductors while on paper “cheaper” than a TM have far better terms and conditions which would be less advantageous to the company. Don’t confuse a referendum ballot result with “favourable” attitude when it’s much more likely the SCs grade at EMR were fed up to the back teeth with a dispute that’s been ongoing for the best part of 10 years on and off.

The poster who said the issue is 360x3 is correct.

 

[AndyMike]

Exactly my experience of EMR/EMT Meridians. Coach H/G regarded as a sacrosanct messroom dominated by high pitched piffle. Please madam(s), we're trying to work/relax here, not be subjected to a constant barrage of irritating staff babble/gossip.

Yes, this is definitely a thing. I’ve experienced it multiple times as well, and found it highly unprofessional.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, this is definitely a thing. I’ve experienced it multiple times as well, and found it highly unprofessional.

I thought that was just an Avanti disease (Coach K, though I believe it has since relocated to Coach C).

 

[185143]

Around me the signs just remind you that if you’re a 72 year old bloke with a (completely sealed) bottle of wine and a microwave meal for one in a Sainsbury’s carrier bag and you get on the train at Nottingham to get off at Hucknall you will have the bottle of wine forcibly taken off of you by staff.

They actually just say no alcohol, but as the chap (ex BR senior staff as it happens) found out, the power trip is very real.

I asked one of the security staff onboard one of those trains not too long ago if you could drink, as I seemed to recall there being a ban but hadn't seen any signs. He simply told me it's not allowed, which ended the conversation. I of course had alcohol with me in my bag.

 

[robbeech]

I asked one of the security staff onboard one of those trains not too long ago if you could drink, as I seemed to recall there being a ban but hadn't seen any signs. He simply told me it's not allowed, which ended the conversation. I of course had alcohol with me in my bag.

It used to be certain services like the last ones at night and then Friday and Saturday afternoons until end of service or something like that, then they changed it to just a blanket ban on the entire line, something I don’t have an issue with IF it’s the best method for reducing issues.
Of course a reasonable guard or member of additional staff would prohibit people drinking on board and may warn anyone who clearly has some that they’re not allowed to open it and drink it.

A guard or other member of staff on a power trip would look through someone’s carrier bag and confiscate an unopened bottle of wine from a bloke in his 70s travelling on a staff pass. But please come back to the railway we need your support.

 

[185143]

It used to be certain services like the last ones at night and then Friday and Saturday afternoons until end of service or something like that, then they changed it to just a blanket ban on the entire line, something I don’t have an issue with IF it’s the best method for reducing issues.
Of course a reasonable guard or member of additional staff would prohibit people drinking on board and may warn anyone who clearly has some that they’re not allowed to open it and drink it.

A guard or other member of staff on a power trip would look through someone’s carrier bag and confiscate an unopened bottle of wine from a bloke in his 70s travelling on a staff pass. But please come back to the railway we need your support.

Quite. If someone boards with alcohol in their hand, then yes they clearly are intending to drink it onboard.

But if it's in their bag, especially if it's something like a bottle of wine, then that's somewhat different. There is no issue at all with someone having alcohol in their bag without the intention of drinking it, and frankly confiscating it "just in case" seems like an abuse of power.

 

[LowLevel]

I can't imagine the guard ever looking through someone's bag, that would be the security staff or police.

Unfortunately the law on the matter is quite clear that it is prohibited to be in possession of alcohol, whether it's open, sealed, bagged or whatever. It isn't usually rigidly enforced though away from Friday, Saturday and Bank Holiday evenings.

 

[bunnahabhain]

It used to be certain services like the last ones at night and then Friday and Saturday afternoons until end of service or something like that, then they changed it to just a blanket ban on the entire line, something I don’t have an issue with IF it’s the best method for reducing issues.
Of course a reasonable guard or member of additional staff would prohibit people drinking on board and may warn anyone who clearly has some that they’re not allowed to open it and drink it.

A guard or other member of staff on a power trip would look through someone’s carrier bag and confiscate an unopened bottle of wine from a bloke in his 70s travelling on a staff pass. But please come back to the railway we need your support.

You do like your hyperbole don't you.

 

[Bishopstone]

Other threads have suggested that EMR have neither the customer numbers, nor the serviceable rolling stock, to support running 3x360.

Therefore, why don’t they pledge not to run 3x360, which would settle the dispute, wouldn’t it?

If a big event at Kettering or Corby (!) required more capacity on a temporary basis, then ‘specials’ could be run with additional 2x360, or stop orders placed on the InterCity services.

Commuter volumes will never return to prior norms, so has this just become a ‘matter of principle’ dispute with no real wins for any party?

 

[Killingworth]

Other threads have suggested that EMR have neither the customer numbers, nor the serviceable rolling stock, to support running 3x360.

Therefore, why don’t they pledge not to run 3x360, which would settle the dispute, wouldn’t it?

If a big event at Kettering or Corby (!) required more capacity on a temporary basis, then ‘specials’ could be run with additional 2x360, or stop orders placed on the InterCity services.

Commuter volumes will never return to prior norms, so has this just become a ‘matter of principle’ dispute with no real wins for any party?

Principles, on both sides!

With likely loadings during the probable life of 360s it seems to be a masochistic ritual that benefits nobody.

 

[Failed Unit]

Referendum concluded today, Regional Senior Conductors voted to accept the company proposals on terms and conditions and multiple working of class 170s. Intercity/Connect Train Managers voted to reject company proposals on multiple working of class 360s.

What is the current situation with multiple working of 170s? Locking out a unit? The only times I know they work multiple are stock positioning moves at the end of the day such as the last train of the day from Lincoln - Nottingham which could probably get away with 1 car. I hope EMR are not planning to work the 170s in multiple, as a passenger I would rather have a corridor connection unit, even if each unit had a qualified member of staff on board.

 

[Horizon22]

Should think the amount of people in a 4 car 360 to Corby is unlikely to reach "crushed in" levels any time soon.

Could they run multiple units with the rear set(s) locked out of use? That would really irritate passengers...

This sort of thing occasionally happens on GWR when there's an ad-hoc 10-car running and no host/assisting TM can be found at short-notice so the rear 5 coaches are locked up. Normally passenger numbers aren't too bad, but always a little frustrating.

Other threads have suggested that EMR have neither the customer numbers, nor the serviceable rolling stock, to support running 3x360.

Therefore, why don’t they pledge not to run 3x360, which would settle the dispute, wouldn’t it?

If a big event at Kettering or Corby (!) required more capacity on a temporary basis, then ‘specials’ could be run with additional 2x360, or stop orders placed on the InterCity services.

Commuter volumes will never return to prior norms, so has this just become a ‘matter of principle’ dispute with no real wins for any party?

That's a little short-termist and could have consequences for years/decades to come as these arrangements can be baked in for a while; there are still circumstances where operations are dictated (rightly or wrongly) by procedures written in BR times.

 

[LowLevel]

What is the current situation with multiple working of 170s? Locking out a unit? The only times I know they work multiple are stock positioning moves at the end of the day such as the last train of the day from Lincoln - Nottingham which could probably get away with 1 car. I hope EMR are not planning to work the 170s in multiple, as a passenger I would rather have a corridor connection unit, even if each unit had a qualified member of staff on board.

At present the rear unit is locked out of use and it is just for stock transfer/balancing purposes.

Going forward that will still be an option for trains of that sort.

However, for trains booked to run in multi for capacity reasons, the conductor will choose which unit to be in at which point during the journey. The driver and guard may be in the same unit, the guard is required to bring equipment like hi vis vests with them in case they need to go back via the cess.

There will normally only be one conductor, however for the purpose of things like summer time Skegness services or special events (but not football strengthening) a second person will be provided to work in the front set.

 

[robbeech]

You do like your hyperbole don't you.

No more than several members like to treat customers with contempt.

Unfortunately the law on the matter is quite clear that it is prohibited to be in possession of alcohol, whether it's open, sealed, bagged or whatever.

Is it that clear? Because over the years many operators have made a point of saying it’s ok if it’s sealed and in a bag, so is this just another railway inconsistency or are there different laws, and what is the actual wording of the law.
We both know which guard it was (yes it was a guard).

 

[43066]

Personally I'd be looking at making all of the TMs across the franchise redundant with an expanded role for SCs across the whole franchise (of course those TMs willing to transfer to the SC grade would be able to maintain their jobs) both because of the more favourable attitude amongst the SC colleagues and also to improve productivity and flexibility.

Except that there are barely enough TMs to operate the connect and intercity services as it is, to the point where trains are having to be cancelled/short formed. Quite a few are already leaving and sacking the rest will do no favours for reliability, so it’s lucky for EMR’s remaining passengers that you aren’t in charge!

You’re also very quick to call for people to lose their livelihoods, a lovely attitude which perfectly illustrates why Trade Unions exist in the first place (the whys and wherefore of this particular dispute aside).

How much of the work is Kettering's, which was a new depot, IIRC?

A fair bit, but there are also Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby TMs who work connect services (I believe it the ex MML links within these depots). There certainly isn’t a strict demarcation of Pancras /Kettering = Connect, everyone else = senior conductors.

The senior conductor v TM thing also dates back to long ago, both are rulebook guards doing basically the same job. @LowLevel might know more about the history of this.

Exactly my experience of EMR/EMT Meridians. Coach H/G regarded as a sacrosanct messroom dominated by high pitched piffle. Please madam(s), we're trying to work/relax here, not be subjected to a constant barrage of irritating staff babble/gossip.

Yes, this is definitely a thing. I’ve experienced it multiple times as well, and found it highly unprofessional.

I thought that was just an Avanti disease (Coach K, though I believe it has since relocated to Coach C).

This is an interesting one and I can see both sides.

There is no shortage of first class seating in meridians (actually there’s far too much of it), so one has a choice whether or not to sit near the galley, where you are indeed likely to hear members of staff conversing - both TMs and customer hosts, and possibly others travelling “on the cushions”. Unfortunately there isn’t really anywhere else for them to go.

Even with the current low loadings some passengers seem to make a point of sitting as close as possible to the galley entrance when where there are loads of free seats elsewhere, which seems a little odd. If you don’t want to see/hear members of staff you can always go to the half-carriage of first behind (or the entire other carriage and a half on the seven cars). It’s a little odd that EMR no longer have designated quiet coaches for those who want to relax or work in peace.

That said I completely agree staff conversation in front of passengers should be discrete and professional and will concede that it isn’t always. Some have probably became a little too used to having the entire carriage roped off during the lockdowns.

 

[Bald Rick]

A fair bit, but there are also Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby TMs who work connect services (I believe it the ex MML links within these depots). There certainly isn’t a strict demarcation of Pancras /Kettering = Connect, everyone else = senior conductors.

AIUI 360s are covered by St P, Kettering and Derby Drivers; St P Kettering, Derby and Nottingham TMs. as you say, not all of the Links at Derby / Nottingham though.

 

[LowLevel]

No more than several members like to treat customers with contempt.


Is it that clear? Because over the years many operators have made a point of saying it’s ok if it’s sealed and in a bag, so is this just another railway inconsistency or are there different laws, and what is the actual wording of the law.
We both know which guard it was (yes it was a guard).

Byelaw 4(2):

"Where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter such a train with intoxicating liquor with him."

Note no distinction between sealed or unsealed, concealed or openly carried - the offence is in possessing the alcohol on board the train or attempting to enter the train with it and notice is given by the posters displayed at the stations.

NB - I don't necessarily agree with it and I feel there is no harm in someone carrying their shopping or a bottle in a bag.

For what it's worth, until I read the posters recently I didn't realise it had changed to all day every day, it wasn't briefed to us and I'm not sure when it happened.

 

[Fokx]

Quite. If someone boards with alcohol in their hand, then yes they clearly are intending to drink it onboard.

But if it's in their bag, especially if it's something like a bottle of wine, then that's somewhat different

Except it isn’t.

The passengers where I serve quite happily demolish a box of beers or a bottle of wine without so much as a straw, sealed or otherwise. Putting in it in a plastic bag doesn’t make a difference, it isn’t going to stop them or their unquenchable thirst

 

[LCC106]

Am I right in thinking the TMs and other staff have their Personal Needs Breaks on board sometimes? Think it’s something to do with ts and cs. Don’t quote me though.