Newspapers always attack rail workers. This is nothing knew. In all my years in the industry I don’t remember ever reading a positive article about us.
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RMT strike action
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Xenophon PCDGS
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There are some of us to which you could reverse the last two words to sum up our feelings.
Old Yard Dog
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Are there likely to be knock-on or other cancellations on Sunday 21st May, the day after the end of the ASLEF overtime ban? It is non-league finals day at Wembley.
Considering 3 of the 4 negative headlines are in the Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Sun (which of course complains about "Union Barons") it's pretty much to be expected
I think that sums everyone up regardless of their position on the matter.
As far as I am concerned it's wrong.
The posted from the RMT it clearly says if the RMT accepts the first part of the offer of 5%/£1750 negotiations then take place on part two but 'no further action can be taken'. That means an agreement must be reached and there will be no right to ballot members if the negotiations do not go the RMT's way on part two.
Otherwise what does the term 'no further action can take place' mean?
Action over what?
If this is not the case why don't the RMT say yes we will take the 5%/1750 and enter negotiations for the second part and if we don't like it we will ballot our members.
Management....er I don't think so Micky boy!
Xenophon PCDGS
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Which was the one that you did not mention?
footprints
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Section 7 of the agreement explicitly states that a new ballot for action can take place if agreement isn't reached. This hasn't changed. It's categorically untrue to say no further action can take place.
Metro
(For clarification there may be more, these are the ones I spotted during my normal morning ritual of seeing what the papers' headlines are from Sky News) I
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Metro is one that is free to all and often seen on public transport.
Dougal2345
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These look like the main four, you can see them all at:
https://www.frontpages.com/uk-newspapers/
For the record, the Sun goes with "SPOIL SPORTS" - "Union barons plot to wreck footie & racing"
The Mail, "VINDICTIVE" - "They claim to be champions of the workers. But rail unions plan to cause misery for thousands by cynically targeting the FA CUP FINAL, THE DERBY and EUROVISION in Liverpool"
Express, "JUST HOW CYNICAL CAN RAIL UNIONS BE?" - "Proof militant train drivers are sabotaging key events"
Metro, "EE AYE ADDIO WE'VE DONE THE CUP!" [didn't quite understand that one!]- "Union calls rail strike to ruin final for fans... then walkout hits Ukrainians at Eurovision"
ModernRailways
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And is owned and published by the Daily Mail Group.
You can view all the front pages here, 7 of which headline with something else, certainly not the majority: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-65420068
Maybe this will convince you. 1.42- 1.58 seconds
Mick Lynch explaining as I said no action can be taken if the 5%/1750 is taken.
RMT rejects proposals as employers torpedo negotiating process
Rail union, RMT will launch strike action across 14 train operators on May 13th after rejecting the latest offer from the Rail Delivery Group.
www.rmt.org.uk
You are wrong.Maybe this will convince you. 1.42- 1.58 seconds
Mick Lynch explaining as I said no action can be taken if the 5%/1750 is taken.
RMT rejects proposals as employers torpedo negotiating process
Rail union, RMT will launch strike action across 14 train operators on May 13th after rejecting the latest offer from the Rail Delivery Group.www.rmt.org.uk
If there is no agreement at the end of 2nd stage negotiations , then members can be be balloted for a fresh industrial dispute.
Agreeing to stage 1 terminates the current dispute and states we can not go into another dispute regarding the offer until stage 2 negotiations have been exhausted. It’s very clear.
The RDG are saying "nothing has changed in the offer agreed two weeks ago by the RMT leadership in the negotiating room"Maybe this will convince you. 1.42- 1.58 seconds
Mick Lynch explaining as I said no action can be taken if the 5%/1750 is taken.
RMT rejects proposals as employers torpedo negotiating process
Rail union, RMT will launch strike action across 14 train operators on May 13th after rejecting the latest offer from the Rail Delivery Group.www.rmt.org.uk
The RMT are saying "the RDG (today) confirmed that the proposed Year One payment of 5% or £1750 is dependent on our dispute being formally terminated and no further action being taken"
So I am back to my original question, why did the RDG not correct the RMT when the RMT comms to members (weeks ago) said the opposite and if it was gained through questioning by the RMT why has it taken so long to reach this understanding on what is a very relevant point? When members of this forum seem split on weather you can take action or not in stage 2 (appreciating this forum is not the NEC).
Trainfan2019
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I wonder how many more 'best and final offers' there'll be until the unions have been striking on and off for a full 12 months?
After an AOD (avoidance of dispute process) has been triggered and has taken place.
Does an avoidance of dispute process involving further talks sound like a new ballot for a dispute can take place easily?
As part of the AOD, multi party groups at local and then national level have to address whether the areas of disagreement fall within or outside of the three overall principles of reforms listed within the offer document.
Surely all their reforms are going to fall within these principles because they are listed in the document itself. So presumably any disagreement at that stage would be difficult and the other side would argue you knew what you were agreeing meaningful talks on implementing.
And don't forget there is a three month time limit, after which there would be a two week cooling off period over disagreements at which time the year two pay rise can be withdrawn as well as the no redundancy guarantees and the talks can be considered exhausted and the changes forced through regardless. During which time presumably the RMT would be half way through a new month of postal balloting.
It just simply isn't free collective bargaining. Free bargaining would mean you can trigger a dispute as soon as possible if you disagree strongly with a proposal.
whoosh
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So can TOC level talks take place, but until they are concluded year 1 (stage 1) pay of 5% won't be paid?
Is that an option? Can talks move from RDG to TOC level just with year one payment not being made until year two discussions concluded - the dispute is over?
Or can talks not progress from RDG to TOC level without agreeing that the dispute is over, even though it wouldn't be as there is plenty of potential for disagreement for at TOC level for year two?
Is that an option? Can talks move from RDG to TOC level just with year one payment not being made until year two discussions concluded - the dispute is over?
Or can talks not progress from RDG to TOC level without agreeing that the dispute is over, even though it wouldn't be as there is plenty of potential for disagreement for at TOC level for year two?
Bantamzen
Established Member
I don't think that's actually true. Just before some people are against the strikes (and this does not mean they are automatically anti-union), doesn't mean they support the government. Another position could be that people are sick of the strikes and the government.
Facing Back
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I don't believe that is the case. My reading of the document is that the year 1 payment will be made when the Dispute Resolution Process is endorsed by RMT members and the current dispute (and strike mandate) are ended. At the same time, the negotiations at TOC level will start.
At this point, the current dispute is agreed as being ended and the RMT agree not to start a new one until the talks complete or breakdown/expire - I think 3 months plus 2 weeks? After that they are free to ballot for a new mandate but until that point no industrial action on these matters is allowed.
Mick actually says: "Stage 2 discussions which are part of the offer made by the employer would then have to begin without the union having any industrial leverage at the negotiating table."Maybe this will convince you. 1.42- 1.58 seconds
Mick Lynch explaining as I said no action can be taken if the 5%/1750 is taken.
RMT rejects proposals as employers torpedo negotiating process
Rail union, RMT will launch strike action across 14 train operators on May 13th after rejecting the latest offer from the Rail Delivery Group.www.rmt.org.uk
That doesn't mean that a further strike about phase 2 isn't possible, just that it would have to be voted for again as a result of the stage 2 negotiations breaking down. It's clear why the RMT don't like that, but it's not the same as "no action can be taken".
Are you suggesting these headlines are inaccurate in reflecting how many prospective passengers will feel, and/or that the dates chosen are purely coincidental in terms of coinciding with those events?
Edit: apologies; I since realised you weren't suggesting this at all; quite the opposite in fact and were merely quoting the headlines after they were mentioned by others.
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If they get the mandate for another 6 months, they have to give a minimum of 2 weeks notice for strike days.
As I said watch the video see what he says. Video 1.42-1.54 sec.
Quote "So they are now saying that we have to go into the second stage of negotiations without a mandate AND WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO TAKE THAT THAT ACTION IF TALKS BREAK DOWN.End Quote.
You say yourself Mick Lynch says "without the union having any industrial leverage at the negotiating table"
That means not having the ability to ballot staff if the 5%/1750 is accepted.
The force majeure agreements between the government and the TOC's are a major problem.
The RMT need to try and get the payments stopped.
If the government had not taken over the TOC's they would be a lot more reluctant to pay out.
These agreements that were made at the start of a properly privatised railway were inline with a privatised railway at the time.
The force majeure agreements are now being used in an entirely different situation from that which they were agreed on.
The RMT need to try and get the payments stopped.
If the government had not taken over the TOC's they would be a lot more reluctant to pay out.
These agreements that were made at the start of a properly privatised railway were inline with a privatised railway at the time.
The force majeure agreements are now being used in an entirely different situation from that which they were agreed on.
Clarence Yard
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How on earth would you do that? They are legal contracts and the DfT is not going to punish its management contractor for carrying out its wishes!
In any event, as the DfT are effectively picking up the tab for all revenue and costs these days, what effect would it have, even if they could do it? Zero. The NRCs are a world away from what used to happen in the old franchise agreements.
In any event, as the DfT are effectively picking up the tab for all revenue and costs these days, what effect would it have, even if they could do it? Zero. The NRCs are a world away from what used to happen in the old franchise agreements.
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We have decided to lock this thread as everyone has now had a chance to have their say and there appears to be nothing else left to discuss until there are any further developments.
As ever if anyone requires travel advice for any of the strike periods then they can start a thread in Trip Planning and Reports.
thanks all
As ever if anyone requires travel advice for any of the strike periods then they can start a thread in Trip Planning and Reports.
thanks all
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