RMT TOC dispute update

[43066]

But the important thing is that the employer doesn't need to get agreement from the union for any changes. So local issues can be discussed - but ultimately the employer can just turn around and say "thanks for your feedback, it was very interesting, but we're going to do it just as we proposed anyway" whether the union agrees to it or not.

And because there is no suggestion that pay is included in these talks then someone such as me, a Conductor on (comparatively) low wages but good old fashioned Ts & Cs, could see all my Ts & Cs ripped to shreds and thrown away and not get a single penny extra in wages.

Obviously these consultations will discuss the details at each TOC and how each grade will be affected based on their own local Ts & Cs, but in the end it just a consultation where the company decides what is happening and there is nothing you can do about it.

Well, yes, there is that. If it comes to it I suspect you’d still get the pay rise even if the Ts and Cs were imposed, as appears to have happened at Network Rail, for the grades who didn’t agree.

I’d consider going driving, not that the Ts and Cs are lots better there, but I get the sense negative changes will be harder to be force through. I’m still not convinced it will be as bad on the RMT side as you think.

I'm not seeking to open any debate but asking about the consultation process (any consultation process anywhere): is there a point/threshold above which a business could not force changes? So could a law firm give their staff sufficient notice and then force them to work shifts, or permanent nights, or weekends? Presumably at some point it becomes a redundancy situation?

Edited to add the example I've chosen may, on reflection, be a little close to the subject. I want to be crystal clear I am asking about the process as it would be applied across any industry.

Yes absolutely, based on the well established “fire and rehire” legal process, any employer can if they wish to. That’s the state of UK employment law for you. There’s relatively little protection compared to our near European neighbours.

It’s highly unlikely a law firm would do it, but they certainly could.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Can they negotiate with the RMT? After 7 months of strikes and numerous rounds of negotiations the RMT said they won't accept any changes to working practices and want an unconditional pay rise. It looks as though throughout the RMT have been negotiating in bad faith and aren't prepared to budge 1 inch from their starting position. What would be the point of further negotiations?

In a roundabout way this may end up with the RMT getting what it is demanding...

The RDG can now turn around and say "here is an unconditional pay offer. You can have the pay rise and it isn't attached to any conditions or changes".

Because the changes will happen regardless and are no longer connected to the pay rise.

 

[Starmill]

And because there is no suggestion that pay is included in these talks then someone such as me, a Conductor on (comparatively) low wages but good old fashioned Ts & Cs, could see all my Ts & Cs ripped to shreds and thrown away and not get a single penny extra in wages.

As there's apparently nothing whatsoever to show for over a year of negotiations about productivity improvements, I would expect the plans to be consulted on to essentially be this, yes. They may then soften it at the last minute in order to improve their public relations but I would say that with no national principles agreed whatsoever, the consultations will be a shopping list of everything they want which they are now planning to take.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

the consultations will be a shopping list of everything they want which they are now planning to take.

And of course because each TOC has wildly different agreements, contracts, Ts & Cs, staffing arrangements etc in the first place, it will naturally mean that the shopping lists will vary wildly between each TOC too.

 

[43066]

Which of course because each TOC has wildly different agreements, contracts, Ts & Cs, staffing arrangements etc in the first place will naturally mean that the shopping lists will vary wildly between each TOC too.

And of course how each TOC decides to implement the same changes will no doubt vary too.

But how the union may wish to respond locally will also vary.

Hence this is a step forward in the process of getting to the end of this.

 

[Snow1964]

I wouldn't be so sure. Forcing the issue is hardly going to ease the distrust between the railway and its workers.

It works both ways, at the moment some of the distrust will be due to proposed changes being more speculative and rumours. If there is a consultation then at least the members know worst case.

At which point everyone can decide if striking is worth the loss of pay, or if it is better to negotiate a compromise rather than risk the worse case being imposed.

No one sensible will see more strikes as going to get a capitulation by the Government, so choice is how proactive members want to be compared to how much they accept part of the changes are an inevitability

 

[43066]

No one sensible will see more strikes as going to get a capitulation by the Government, so choice is how proactive members want to be compared to how much they accept part of the changes are an inevitability

Not sure that’s a safe statement based on what’s happened with the NHS, which will cost the government far more: “there’s no money” has clearly run its course as an excuse!

Nobody has ever been after a “capitulation”, just a negotiation towards a reasonable settlement. Now that the government have settled the NHS dispute, perhaps the gates have opened for them to settle elsewhere...

 

[Towers]

Not sure that’s a safe statement based on what’s happened with the NHS, which will cost the government far more: “there’s no money” has clearly run its course as an excuse!

Nobody has ever been after a “capitulation”, just a negotiation towards a reasonable settlement. Now that the government have settled the NHS dispute, perhaps the gates have opened for them to settle elsewhere...

I think the difference is that most other unions appear to be a lot more willing to accept reasonable offers and quickly bring their members out of strike situations. For the rail unions, and particularly the RMT, going on strike somewhere is just another day at the office, and indeed there was an undeniable sense of victory and triumph within the RMT leadership just at the prospect of having managed to arrange 'national' strikes.

 

[NI 271]

Reasonable offers, you say?

 

[gazzaa2]

I suppose one way or another this is coming to an end.

It has to. The strikes have become utterly pointless now.

 

[ChrisC]

It has to. The strikes have become utterly pointless now.

The strikes don’t even seem to be getting much media coverage now. Yesterday there were very few trains running in many parts of the country and yet it hardly got a mention on the tv news. In the past a rail strike would have been the headlines.

 

[JonathanH]

It has to. The strikes have become utterly pointless now.

Do you suggest the staff just roll over and accept the proposals?

 

[Towers]

Reasonable offers, you say?

Well, alright that's debatable! "Offers", then!

 

[footprints]

Do you suggest the staff just roll over and accept the proposals?

Instead of striking themselves into irrelevance and achieving nothing but losing money because the RMT is incapable of negotiation you mean?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is this seen as a good thing? That whole email just confused me

I see at as the end game. The union will have to negotiate with train companies individually and as disputes get settled the disruption becomes more patchwork and less effective on a national scale.

 

[Towers]

I see at as the end game. The union will have to negotiate with train companies individually and as disputes get settled the disruption becomes more patchwork and less effective on a national scale.

It'll be interesting to see if the union's zero compromise stance on ticket offices remains or not. If it's made clear that moves are commencing to close them anyway, the options would appear to be to dig in even further, or to start to having sensible discussions about the replacement job roles going forwards. The union has an opportunity here to have a constructive input into those roles; let's hope they choose to take advantage of that rather than stick fingers in ears and pretend it isn't happening.

Presumably the "consultation" process means that no pay increases, if any at all, can be expected until the end of the year?

 

[g492p]

Instead of striking themselves into irrelevance and achieving nothing but losing money because the RMT is incapable of negotiation you mean?

The strikes have already improved the offer made to us a great deal. We’re already being offered more money and less preconditions. Originally the RDG had a whole raft of terrible proposals that the union batted away through negotiation.

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely, even the RMT must finally realise that this is the end ?
The government was never going to allow the significant pay increases that the RMT demanded and it looks like that might be finally sinking in.

On the BBC 6 O'clock News yesterday the rail strikes weren't even mentioned.

Mick Lynch was briefly interviewed on the BBC London news. He seemed subdued and tired, which is hardly surprising.

 

[KM1991]

I see at as the end game. The union will have to negotiate with train companies individually and as disputes get settled the disruption becomes more patchwork and less effective on a national scale.

I didn’t read anything in the email that suggests pay deal negotiations will continue individually by the TOCs. RDG provided notice to the RMT that the TOCs will now start the opening stages of implementation, whether there is an agreement or not.

 

[footprints]

The strikes have already improved the offer made to us a great deal. We’re already being offered more money and less preconditions. Originally the RDG had a whole raft of terrible proposals that the union batted away through negotiation.

Is that the same latest offer that the RMT described as "dreadful"?

 

[12LDA28C]

Can they negotiate with the RMT? After 7 months of strikes and numerous rounds of negotiations the RMT said they won't accept any changes to working practices and want an unconditional pay rise. It looks as though throughout the RMT have been negotiating in bad faith and aren't prepared to budge 1 inch from their starting position. What would be the point of further negotiations?

Really? Have you missed the fact that on the NR side, the latest offer has gone to referendum for RMT members and is currently being voted on?

 

[InOban]

Excuse my ignorance, not being in the industry, but my understanding of the RMT wanting an offer without conditions was that the charges in T&Cs demanded by the DfT would have been substantial within some TOCs but much less in others. eg in some TOCs staff had already agreed 7-day weeks (at a price, of course ) while others operated Sundays as overtime, either voluntary or contractual. The DfT would have imposed this nationwide without any extra increase within the affected TOCs. Am I right?

 

[Ferret]

The basic gist is that the RMT have a huge fight on their hands. As it stands, I believe they are something that rhymes with ‘butterly ducked’!

The latest missive from Mick Lynch suggests RDG plan to implement reforms without negotiating with RMT - it’s a like it or lump it scenario. A consultation is just basically paying lip service to those being consulted.

As I understand it, Mr Lynch is calling a meeting with the reps from each affected TOC grades to discuss next steps. I just don’t believe there is much he can do about it at this stage. It’s now an exercise in damage limitation for RMT members. The only chink of light for Guards is if ASLEF ride to the rescue on DOO. By no means is thar a certainty.

 

[Towers]

The strikes have already improved the offer made to us a great deal. We’re already being offered more money and less preconditions. Originally the RDG had a whole raft of terrible proposals that the union batted away through negotiation.

Nobody is now being offered anything! There may have been potential to tweak the last offer into something acceptable, but it would have required some degree of give on the RMT side, and some grasp of smart negotiating and the ability to understand when you are fighting an unwinable fight. Alas, that doesn't seem to have materialised.

 

[Kite159]

It has to. The strikes have become utterly pointless now.

Especially with network rail staff getting the chance to privately vote on the offer. Means potentially the strikes at the end of the month for those operators running DOO can in theory run a near normal service

 

[Dan G]

You have all misread one vital word.

The email says there will be Consultation at each TOC - not Negotiation.

The two are very different things.

Consultation is basically the employer telling you what they are going to do, and when, and how, and there is little to nothing you can do about it.



Agreed.



Agreed.



Correct.

Have the TOCs not consulted on working practice reforms before this?

 

[Tractor2018]

Is that the same latest offer that the RMT described as "dreadful"?

Deflection won't alter the fact you said the strikes have achieved nothing when, as g492p pointed out, the offer was subsequently improved. If you can't stay on topic with your own opinion what chance has a forum thread got?

 

[L+Y]

Were a TOC-by-TOC imposition of the proposed terms to happen, roughly how would this look for each TOC, given the differences?

And secondly, at this point what if anything is to stop the return of DOO/DCO?

 

[whoosh]

Excuse my ignorance, not being in the industry, but my understanding of the RMT wanting an offer without conditions was that the charges in T&Cs demanded by the DfT would have been substantial within some TOCs but much less in others. eg in some TOCs staff had already agreed 7-day weeks (at a price, of course ) while others operated Sundays as overtime, either voluntary or contractual. The DfT would have imposed this nationwide without any extra increase within the affected TOCs. Am I right?

Yes, you are correct. ASLEF have the same issue.

Also, EMR Driver's year one 5% offer compared to RPI at the time, is somewhat different to GTR's year one offer of 5% because EMR's pay anniversary is January and GTRs October (when inflation was much higher).
For year two, EMR know they'd be way behind inflation, but at least know by how much - what's October 2023's inflation going to be?!

5% year one, and 4% year two, but with changes to T&Cs at some TOCs and also with different pay anniversaries, are not the same offer "across the board" by any means.

 

[Goldfish62]

Nobody is now being offered anything! There may have been potential to tweak the last offer into something acceptable, but it would have required some degree of give on the RMT side, and some grasp of smart negotiating and the ability to understand when you are fighting an unwinable fight. Alas, that doesn't seem to have materialised.

The impression I get is that it was always understood by the negotiators, Lynch included, but their work over the past year has been slapped down by the NEC who have decided after all this time that they no longer want to discuss conditions and an unconditional offer is all they'll consider.

That new position really leaves no one with anywhere to go and the employers can probably reasonably argue that negotiations have now been exhausted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2023 ==

Yes absolutely, based on the well established “fire and rehire” legal process, any employer can if they wish to. That’s the state of UK employment law for you. There’s relatively little protection compared to our near European neighbours.

"Fire and rehire" is so contentious and unpleasant I can't see the government or the employers wanting to get involved in that. More likely I'd have thought they'd go for straight redundancies instead by de-staffing the quietest stations and drop the whole idea of a revised station staff role.

Worrying times.