It's a pay freeze until 2028
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Role of on board staff on Merseyrail trains and associated issues (e.g. ticket selling/checking)
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Kite159
Veteran Member
They should have just gone down the Greater Anglia route where the driver does everything with the doors and the guard remains on board for passenger safety (no guard = train cancelled). At the city centre underground stations just use dispatchers with "Close Doors/Right Away" buttons.
That new way of working just shouts out slowness compared to the 507/508 operation.
That new way of working just shouts out slowness compared to the 507/508 operation.
Not sure it will be that slow. From what I can gather, train manager does what they need to do on the platform, and when it's safe to do so pops their smart card on a sensor at which point the driver dispatches the train without further intervention.
No, it isnt. 5 year pay deal with 2 of those years with no increase.
That we’re not dealing with Voyagers (imagine one in Liverpool Central) and that isn’t what the 777s have been fitted with.
bramling
Veteran Member
Must say I can’t see that method of working lasting. For one, if the driver is going to be responsible for dispatching the train from a safety-critical perspective, how long before they tire of having the second person essentially going through the motions?
Driver open / guard close, as used on Electrostars, would seem far more appropriate, albeit presumably requiring more extensive mods to the rolling stock, though why they weren’t fitted with guard panels in the first place even if not intended to be used is a bit of a mess in my view.
This solution simply seems to tick a box for having a second person have some kind of involvement with despatch. If the second safety-critical person is going to be there, in all honesty they may as well do the doors.
The document I am looking at clearly states pay freeze until 2027. The new TM grade will not be part of any future pay discussion until then. The document is the option 10 agreement between RMT and Merseyrail electrics
In what way am I misreading it?
I assume you think "3 years being the same as general grades pay awards" is the same as the other "2 years pay freeze". The general grades pay awards would need to be 0% for it to be a full 5 year pay freeze.
Does state that on what I'm looking at
So the way I'm reading it is that if implemented today, guards ((TMs ) would be on £31k, and in 2027 would still be on £31k
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Even the RMT's own blurb on their news article confirms it's a 2 year pay freeze as part of a 5 year deal: These red lines include two years within a five year pay deal at 0%
ROLE OF THE GUARD & INTRODUCTION OF DOO – MERSEYRAIL
www.rmt.org.uk
Why the obsession with driver closing doors if you have a Guard ? Is this for quickness or to not waste tech or for future resilience?
Least it's one or thr other
On Turbos some stations are Guard release due to no SDO everywhere else is Driver release
Least it's one or thr other
On Turbos some stations are Guard release due to no SDO everywhere else is Driver release
The RMT’s 5 page PDF file even includes a full breakdown of the pay award…
It is explicitly stated that only in years 3 and 5 of this 5 year pay deal will TMs receive a pay freeze, which is a 2 year pay freeze. They would then re-enter the general grades pay pay discussion for the last year of the current concession in 2027 having received the same pay rise as the general grades for 3 of the previous 5 years and had their pay frozen for the aforementioned 2. There is no other way of reading it!
well I certainly read that differently......though to be fair, the version on my phone isnt quite lined up!!!
A PDF file shows print layout and should always display identically across devices. They even contain embedded fonts, so if it isn’t lined up, then perhaps their mastering process is to blame.
Dont know.....im not a techie.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It is literally a key and a signal buzzer on Voyagers, no cupboard. Or you could go Euro style and just have a key.
It strikes me as a complex solution looking for a problem.
185143
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Especially given, thoughts on the methods of operation firmly to one side, one of the improvements with the 777s Merseyrail were shouting about the most was quicker journey times!
It sounds somewhat like Southern OBS with safety critical competency. However if dispatch is still involved, that doesn't really add extra speed (or insert other presumed improvements) and a need to still be near some sort of panel at all times of stations. Bit of a fudge.
I'd go so far as to say it's the worst of all worlds, significantly increasing costs whilst letting the benefits of the new fleet go to waste. But given the political involvement and situation it's hardly very surprising.
Only to close doors. The TM can still be in the saloon whilst the train stops and the doors open, the wording of instruction 3 is vague enough that they just need to be near to the set of doors that will allow them to see the signal or off indicator. Given there are only a limited number of stations where guards must be in a certain location, this pretty much means they can wander the entire length of the train right until it stops.
Scenario I’m thinking of is they assist a wheelchair off the train (there is still a small bump at the interface) or people with lots of luggage, have a look around the platform and check the signal, step back on and glance down the interior of the train, tap their doohickey once content nobody is needing assistance, watch the doors close and then job done. Sure, it adds a few seconds more than DOO, but the benefit is visibility at all times of day which was sorely lacking pre-covid.
Closing the doors is the bit that seems unnecessary and a fudge, losing many of the potential benefits. I have no qualms with them remaining safety critical for emergency purposes. Many OBS on Southern stay close to the doors anyway with a cursory check to look for assistance and I believe they are still "keying on" with the 377s.
Visibility, customer service & revenue management is important, but crucially you can normally only this by giving the staff the opportunity to do this without the dispatch requirement (especially where train has regular stops) and proper management and regular assessments to ensure its being done.
Bertie the bus
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To be honest it could have been an agreement drawn up by the media relations department. Plenty of opportunity to spin it as a win-win but the reality is passengers won't benefit, fare income will barely increase at all and it is all costing a huge amount of money.
Doors and revenue protection duties is a perfectly adequate method of working on many services throughout the country but Merseyrail services stop every 2 - 3 minutes. How many tickets can someone issue in that time, especially if they encounter a difficult punter?
Forgive me as I think I've asked this before on here, but I'm not down south very much. Is the keying on for the Southern OBS' an indication to the driver that they are potentially undertaking activity in the doorway/outside the train, so it stops the driver closing the doors?
A fully-trained competent second member of crew checking tickets on trains means Merseyrail (and Merseytravel) can dispense with the services of Carlisle security services reportedly causing grief as reported on this forum numerous times
It's there to prevent the train from leaving whilst they're stepping out onto the platform to check for any passengers needing assistance.
Pretty much yes. There was the percieved risk potentially of a driver opening and then closing the doors (as they are DOO) with the OBS then left languishing on the platform whilst dealing with issue or providing assistance.
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