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Route:. (full stop)

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cf111

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I've been seeing this recently on tickets I've bought from the ScotRail website where the route would have been "any permitted". Is there a reason for this changing? The full stop prints on the tickets too where the route would normally appear.

The attached screenshot shows an extract from a confirmation email generated by ScotRail for an anytime return between Inverness and Georgemas Junction.
 

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Paul Kelly

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It's at the behest of the DfT:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...help-passengers-choose-the-best-deal-on-fares
DfT said:
Measures to improve ticketing information for passengers and make it easier for people to choose the best value fare for their journey were agreed today at a forum co-hosted by Rail Minister Paul Maynard and Which?

[...]

Some of the improvements include:
  • an end to jargon like ‘any permitted route’ on tickets
This has been achieved by replacing the "jargon" with a full stop.
 

Welshman

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Does it really matter?
Its not as though there are several alternative routes between Inverness and Georgemas Junction.
 

cf111

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It's at the behest of the DfT:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...help-passengers-choose-the-best-deal-on-fares

This has been achieved by replacing the "jargon" with a full stop.

Thank you.

Does it really matter?
Its not as though there are several alternative routes between Inverness and Georgemas Junction.

The ScotRail website does this on every "any permitted" ticket bought from it, I was only wondering if there was some reason behind the change and this was the last ticket I bought, so the easiest email to grab a screenshot from.
 

gray1404

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I member the Route field on most tickets would just stay empty and would only be used if there was an actual route restriction applied to the ticket purchased. It would also say on the back of the ticket something like: unless stated otherwise, this ticket can be used any permitted route.
 

tsr

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This is (in many parts of the country) mainly for those tickets where there is only one route possible for all or most of the journey. "Any Permitted" can still be seen on some tickets where this varies from more restrictive routes which would also be available.

A full stop has to be inserted, I believe, because many ticket issuing and vending systems do not allow the Route field to be removed entirely, and in some cases would not allow an Route field to exist without any characters at all.

Some tickets also say "Direct" instead of "Any Permitted", where the most direct route is intended to be used instead of a circuitous one, with extra validity such as the possibility of going via a major station where it could be useful to stop short / break a journey, etc. It would be technically possible to put "Direct" instead of the full stop. However, if there is only one route, passengers might be misled into thinking that the word "Direct" means that break of journeys can't be done by default, that a train which terminates half-way along the route can't be used to get them as far as possible, and so on. A full stop is a bit of a bodge job, but it has no such connotations, it's better than crashing the computers, and does at least look like an intentional placeholder.
 

causton

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... and does at least look like an intentional placeholder.

Except it does not. It has confused staff and passengers alike. I remember that one customer on receiving an encode replacement on a season ticket demanded the old one back, as they did not want the Any Permitted removed from their ticket!

Personally, I think they should have programmed (or they should do it now) that when the route is the full stop, it removes the route field entirely.

I remember when they started removing the Valid until date on Advances. Imagine if they replaced the date with a full stop or some dashes though - that would confuse people! Instead, it just disappeared and nobody questioned it.
 
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tsr

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Except it does not. It has confused staff and passengers alike. I remember that one customer on receiving an encode replacement on a season ticket demanded the old one back, as they did not want the Any Permitted removed from their ticket!

I've certainly not had that experience yet. Most people seem quite happy with the explanation that there is no specific instruction needed in that position.

Personally, I think they should have programmed (or they should do it now) that when the route is the full stop, it removes the route field entirely.

I quite agree - that would be ideal. As above, I'm not sure whether all (or most) current systems allow this.
 

najaB

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If they want something that won't cause (much) confusion, how about "Route: Not specified"?
 

najaB

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Then you'll have a load of confused passengers asking staff about their tickets!
It would be best to leave the Route field off entirely, but if it has to be there, and can't be 'Any Permitted' then 'Not route specific' or similar is a better solution than a period.
 

Wallsendmag

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It would be best to leave the Route field off entirely, but if it has to be there, and can't be 'Any Permitted' then 'Not route specific' or similar is a better solution than a period.



Some legacy systems can't cope with that hence the "."


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najaB

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Or better still, have the text as "Any Reasonable" like it used to have previously.
What if I think it's reasonable to go from Edinburgh to Glasgow via Birmingham? After all, there are trains from Edinburgh to Brum and trains from Brum to Glasgow, it's only one change...
 
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sd0733

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Any permitted was always read by a lot of passengers to be Any [route is] permitted or any route. Ie they can buy a ticket and go where they fancy with it.
I've had that 'discussion' with several people who are absolutely miles out their way saying their ticket says 'any route' when any permitted is printed on it.
 

najaB

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I've had that 'discussion' with several people who are absolutely miles out their way saying their ticket says 'any route' when any permitted is printed on it.
Indeed. The problem is people read it as 'Any route permitted' rather than 'Any permitted route'.
 

Adlington

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"Any permitted route" doesn't mean anything practical without an explanation what is and what isn't permitted. And in most cases an A4 page is needed for the full set of rules.
 

yorkie

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Any permitted was always read by a lot of passengers to be Any [route is] permitted or any route. Ie they can buy a ticket and go where they fancy with it.
I've had that 'discussion' with several people who are absolutely miles out their way saying their ticket says 'any route' when any permitted is printed on it.
I don't see how arguing "Any permitted route means that any route is permitted" (which is ludicrous) is any more a valid argument than "No route restriction printed on my ticket means that I can take any route".
 

yorkie

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"Any permitted route" doesn't mean anything practical without an explanation what is and what isn't permitted. And in most cases an A4 page is needed for the full set of rules.
Saying nothing about what routes are permitted doesn't offer an explanation either.
 

Wallsendmag

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As far as I know it is intended only for flows where there is one possible route. Unfortunately it hasn't always been implemented this way


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sheff1

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If they want something that won't cause (much) confusion, how about "Route: Not specified"?

I like that. If the route is not specified it must mean I can go any way I want:D

What if I think it's reasonable to go from Edinburgh to Glasgow via Birmingham? After all, there are trains from Edinburgh to Brum and trains from Brum to Glasgow, it's only one change...

A 'reasonable person' would not consider such a route reasonable. But if the route was 'Not specified' ... anything is possible.

Indeed. The problem is people read it as 'Any route permitted' rather than 'Any permitted route'.

Indeed. So why isn't (wasn't) it shown as "Any permitted route" with a note on the back referring to the Routing Guide which defines the permitted routes ?
 
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najaB

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I like that. If the route is not specified it must mean I can go any way I want:D
To the layman, the route being 'Unspecified' doesn't mean the same thing as 'Any permitted' and I'd say the latter is more likely to result in argument.
A 'reasonable person' would not consider such a route reasonable.
Why isn't a route with just one change reasonable?
 

Paul Kelly

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"Any permitted route" doesn't mean anything practical without an explanation what is and what isn't permitted.
Yes, of course. I think that is probably what the DfT had in mind when they asked TOCs to get rid of the Any Permitted "jargon". But you need to be careful what you ask for!
 

Hadders

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Any Permitted simply needs to be defined. This could be done on the back of the ticket in the small print about tickets being issued subject to the NTCoT etc.

Something like 'unless defined otherwise you may use the following routes to make your journey - any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket; by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations shown on your Ticket;any other routes as shown in the ‘National Routeing Guide’. '
 

gray1404

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Provided these changes do not result in passengers loosing their rights under the existing routing guide then I am happy.
 

xotGD

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If you don't leave the station, then you clearly are not using a dubious route as a means to go somewhere on the cheap. Therefore, 'Any route, without break of journey' ought to be OK. The only people who would take advantage are cranks - normal passengers just want to reach their destination.
 
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