Routeing Guide question

[John @ home]

Anyone think i've got this wrong in any way?

I wouldn't say you've got anything wrong, but you have made a couple of assumptions which may or may not be correct.

I then narrowed the discussion to season tickets ... At the new prices the seven day seasons (7DS) cost:

route Redhill £72.40
route not via Clapham Junction £62.30
route not via London - no season ticket priced
route any permitted (cross-London) - no season ticket priced
to zones 2-6 route Woking/Clandon £88.30

Here, you have assumed that it's appropriate to compare season ticket prices when analysing route availability with a season ticket. But the Routeing Guide Instructions state:

All fares comparisons must be made using one of the following single ticket types:

• Standard Open Single (SOS)
• Standard Day Single (SDS)
• Saver Single (SVS)
• Cheap Day Single (CDS)

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

If the word "All" is to have any meaning, this would direct that single fares are used in the calculation, not season ticket prices.

But this particular instruction was re-written around 2008. The previous version was:

All fares comparisons must be made using the same ticket type.
If the customer requires a Single then Single fares should be compared. If the customer requires a Saver then Saver fares should be compared.

You are probably in a good position to find out whether it was apparent to the author of the 2008 version that the wording introduced a new rule that valid season ticket routes are determined by comparing single fares.

Another assumption is that it's appropriate to compare current ticket prices when analysing route availability. But it has been pointed out on this forum that the software used to determine route availability continues to use fares from over 15 years ago (NFM 64). It has been suggested that this has been done to avoid introducing anomalies when one TOC increases fares at a different rate from a neighbour. In a marginal case such as Guildford - Croydon, this may make a significant difference.

I'll end by making a plea for easy access to NFM 64 information online. We've tracked down two paper copies available for public inspection: one in the library of the Office of Rail Regulation; the other in the National Railway Museum. We need better than that!

 

[johnnycache]

Thank you

Yes i have used current prices rather than NFM64 prices and i have used season ticket prices rather than single prices

For the Woking Redhill ticket the single and season fares are shown below:

Route 00000 ✠ANY PERMITTED
STD SINGLE ADULT: £19.70
No season fare

Route 00603 CLAPHAM JUNCTION
STD SEASON ADULT: £83.90
No single fare

Route 00615 VIA GOMSHALL
STD SEASON ADULT: £61.90
STD SINGLE ADULT: £13.10

Route 00700 NOT VIA LONDON
STD SEASON ADULT: £69.30
STD SINGLE ADULT: £11.40

So in this case there is a problem as the Not Via London single fare (£11.40) is currently lower than the via Gomshall single fare (£13.10)

Therefore if single fares settle the matter then a via Gomshall season ticket should also be valid on the Not Via London routes even though the season ticket fare is lower

I don't know what you do when there is no single fare as in route Clapham Junction but i think that's a rogue fare anyway!

Using the NRE journey planner (which is supposed to be based on NFM64 fares) you get the following for single peak journeys Woking to Redhill from 0700:

Woking 0705 Redhill 0819 change at Clapham Junction/East Croydon
Fare £17.10 (summation of two single fares Woking Clapham Junction £8.10, Clapham Junction to Redhill £9.00)
Woking 0713 Redhill 0830 change at Guildford
Fare £11.40 - note this is the not via London fare above not the via Gomshall fare

 

[cjp]

I thought I would try to get to grips with the routeing guide and this thread would be good one to work with.

I have a headache

Anyway I have a question for Johnnycache.
What ticket did your collegue choose in the end and did they have any problems?

 

[johnnycache]

In the end a ticket was purchased from Guildford to Croydon via Redhill at a fare of £72.40 per week (we work for Southern so only a priv was needed)

I would have expected some query but none yet

The choice of ticket was based on the following from the routeing guide:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES

Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is
not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in
the Routeing Guide.

This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the same overall journey.

If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose any of the routes listed in the Guide.

Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the
route description.

The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description.

Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

The last line means (in my interpretation) that if you have bought a ticket for a more expensive route (even in this case for a more expensive route that is not itself a permitted route) then it is automatically valid on all lower price routes.

I was very surprised when i first came across this as it makes the job of deciding whether a ticket is valid or not much more difficult - but that is what it says!

 

[yorkie]

The last line means (in my interpretation) that if you have bought a ticket for a more expensive route (even in this case for a more expensive route that is not itself a permitted route) then it is automatically valid on all lower price routes.

The alternative to this is to issue a zero fare excess. But staff at certain TOCs are reluctant to do this, because their TOCs policy is to complete a form for every zero excess.

In particular, XC have a particularly bizarre policy because they insist their Guards complete a TIR when issuing a zero excess, and the managers will not budge even when experienced railwaymen explain the situation to them. I've heard this from several reliable sources.

In most cases it would simply be fine to use the more expensive ticket without an excess, but if the more expensive ticket isn't valid via London, then the customer may require a zero fare excess to use LU. In these cases, if rail staff accept the tickets without issuing a zero fare excess, the customer will be denied a cross-London transfer as LU staff are not able to excess the ticket and are told that if it doesn't have the "+" then they should not allow a cross-London transfer.

 

[cjp]

One for a fares workshop I think

 

[johnnycache]

I guess the rule is: a ticket is valid on any route where if an excess was calculated from the route on the ticket it would be zero